RTKDCMB
Senior Master
So when you spar with one another, you gang up on one person and beat his or her head against the floor?
Only on Tuesdays.
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So when you spar with one another, you gang up on one person and beat his or her head against the floor?
Only on Tuesdays.
One thing that I'd do with my SD techs is have the attacker do more than 1 thing, and resist a bit. IE: A preset tech against a rt. hand lapel grab. While the defender is defending, the attacker does something to offset the defense, ie: grab with his other hand, punch, etc. This can, unless its watched carefully, can turn into somewhat of a sparring match.
IMO though, while I do see your point, as we've had these discussions before, I feel that the sparring offers some things that just working techs, doesn't, some of those things being stamina and the ability to take a shot as well as give one, with movement.
And do you think that such methods (adding the unscripted) can only be seen in sparring? Or that it's not present in (well done) self defence training...? My biggest caveat, though, is that the "added actions" need to be realistic... I see, rather frequently, unrealistic additions, usually what people "think" might be possible, rather than what is realistically going to be encountered... so without taking that into account, there's really little point adding the extra aspects.
Again, I'd say that such things are also present in properly addressed self defence training... with the exception that the way they are addressed is specific to the needs of self defence itself, rather than having them there as a by-product of training designed with a different emphasis, and hope they transfer without the less-desirable traits. Personally, I'd rather do something that's 100% geared towards my aims, rather than something that is geared towards something else, with, say, 20% (being generous) that can transfer across.
Oh, and I might have something to send to you soon....
Hey Chris,
No, I do not believe that unscripted methods can only be done in sparring. I've personally said many times, that I'm a huge fan of spontaneous training, and that when I was teaching, I'd openly say to the students, not to fall back on the preset techniques, but instead to train your basics, get damn good at them, and be prepared to respond accordingly.
As for the need for the added things to be realistic...agreed 100%. IMHO, I think that grabbing someone and punching with the other hand, or grabbing and trying to slam them into the nearest wall, is more realistic than the badguy just grabbing and standing there like a statue, like we see in many cases.
Good points. So basically, in your opinion, sparring as we typically know it, is not good for anything?
Looking forward to it.
Sure... but that's not quite what I was meaning. Good scenario training can be completely unscripted... really, all that's needed there is a clear understanding of the aims (different for different people; attackers/aggressors will have a different aim to the defending student, for example)... but no need for anything to be set. No need for sparring at all, when self defence is the aim.
Sure... but you need to take into account what "realistic" actually is... what's often seen as "resistance" is just plainly unrealistic. Looking at the idea of "grabbing and punching" being more realistic than just "grabbing and standing like a statue", that really needs a lot more context. And it's up to the instructor to both understand what that context is, and how to ensure that the students understand it. There's a clip doing the rounds (you would have seen it on a facebook page we're both on....) of a Judo guy having a "bad day"... and, honestly, the "Judo" guy doesn't really get how what he's trying to show really works, and the BJJ guy is just being a jerk (and, well, it's obviously a set-up anyway). With both participants, there's a real disconnect of the context, which is why it goes so badly.
Within our arts, there are Kihon (basics) for a particular wrist lock/control, which is initially taught against someone "just grabbing and standing there"... and the context is learning the basic mechanics and principles. Then it gets trained against a grab-and-punch attack... and teaches another series of principles based on a different context. Often, when it's just "grab and stand", it's teaching methods of distracting and unbalancing, as well as teaching a timing (almost pre-emptive) of moving before any continuation of the attack can occur.... and, when it's "grab and hit", it's teaching to take advantage of the opening the attacker has provided, with less need of a distraction, and a different timing (between the attack, rather than before it). And, really, both are as realistic as each other.... but neither are really "realistic" representations of violence... more "symbolic" representations of it. Which is fine, provided the context is understood, and one isn't mistaken for the other.
Once these contexts, and reasons for such methods and the way they're designed, are understood, then you can move onto more "realistic" representations of violence... but it needs to be realized what is actually realistic in the first place. And grabbing and slamming you into a wall is... sometimes... but at other times, it's just not. Standing like a statue, though, just isn't.
For self defence? No, it's not. Bluntly.
Give me a bit on that... gotta get my head around some technology a bit more advanced than a stick or sword... hmm....
Agreed, and I didn't mean to imply anything when I was talking about the preset SD techs. My point in mentioning that, was simply that many times, people don't do any scenario/spontaneous training, instead, only relying on the set techs that're requred for each belt level. IMO, only doing that, is limiting the students ability to think outside of the box.
LOL, yeah, I've seen the clip posted but havent watched it. I'm going to have to do that now. But yes, I agree...the resistance needs to be realistic.
Yeah, we have the same type of set up in Kenpo. The problem that I"ve seen, is that all that we ever see, is the statue. This is why, (and don't hit me on the head when you read this...lol) Ras was such an advocate of his training. Now, I may not agree with all of this methods, ideas, etc, but I think you see where I'm trying to go with this. Now, I'm not against the statue training. IMHO, that is needed in the beginning. But afterwards, it needs to expand.
Ok, thanks.
Sparring to me always elicits a sense of back and forth exchanges which is not condusive to self-defense training as that is not realistic. Having a committed attacker with some unpredictability fits more along the lines of randori to me.Competition sparring maybe. For mesparring is about learning and practicing attack and defence physically andmentally.
But, more to the point, resistance itself actually isn't realistic. Reaction and response is. Resistance is something you get in a sporting competition and context.
There are back and forth exchanges during sparring because it is a bit more drawn out than actual self defence where it is necessary to try to eliminate the physical threat on the first engagement, assuming of course you have not had the opportunity to avoid the conflict by other means in the first place. What sparring does for self defence is gives you experience at dealing with punches, strikes and kicks coming at you in an unstaged manner.Sparring to me always elicits a sense of back and forth exchanges which is not condusive to self-defense training as that is not realistic. Having a committed attacker with some unpredictability fits more along the lines of randori to me.
We may actually be thinking of the same thing, I just find it necessary to differentiate the two because of how sparring is commonly used.
There are back and forth exchanges during sparring because it is a bit more drawn out than actual self defence where it is necessary to try to eliminate the physical threat on the first engagement, assuming of course you have not had the opportunity to avoid the conflict by other means in the first place. What sparring does for self defence is gives you experience at dealing with punches, strikes and kicks coming at you in an unstaged manner.
Which can just be done as its own exercise, with benefits rather than expenses.
Sparring doesn't cost anything - that's why it is called "free sparring".
I was just thinking this today.....I agree yes it can effect self defense.....with self defense....YOU DONT STOP UNTIL! when my training partner is bent over clutching himself....I always remember....that if this was self defense I would keep on going with a thai plum and knees to his head....and then maybe ground and pound
I was just thinking this today.....I agre eyes it can effect self defense.....with self defense....YOU DONT STOP UNTIL!when my training partner is bent over clutching himself....I alwaysremember....that if this was self defense I would keep on going with a thaiplum and knees to his head....and then maybe ground and pound
What I was getting at is that in self-defense the attacker should not be defending at any point. He may react to attempts to stop him, but he will not be thinking of defending. Self-defense is very one sided with the attacker focused only on what he wants to do to his victim. If the plan does not workout for him he will leave. Randori training is more appropriate for this than sparring in my opinion.There are back and forth exchanges during sparring because it is a bit more drawn out than actual self defence where it is necessary to try to eliminate the physical threat on the first engagement,assuming of course you have not had the opportunity to avoid the conflict byother means in the first place. What sparring does for self defence is gives you experience at dealing with punches, strikes and kicks coming at you in an unstaged manner.
I was just thinking this today.....I agree yes it can effect self defense.....with self defense....YOU DONT STOP UNTIL! when my training partner is bent over clutching himself....I always remember....that if this was self defense I would keep on going with a thai plum and knees to his head....and then maybe ground and pound
What I was getting at is that in self-defense the attacker should not be defending at any point. He may react to attempts to stop him, but he will not be thinking of defending. Self-defense is very one sided with the attacker focused only on what he wants to do to his victim. If the plan does not workout for him he will leave. Randori training is more appropriate for this than sparring in my opinion.
Situations that start as self-defense can change to mutual combat, and can look a bit like sparring as now both people’s egos refuse to let them leave. That’s where you get slug fests.
If you end with a ground and pound it will no longer be self defense. It will be battery and you are now the attacker.
What I was getting at is that in self-defense the attacker should not be defending at any point. He may react to attempts to stop him, but he will not be thinking of defending. Self-defense is very one sided with the attacker focused only on what he wants to do to his victim. If the plan does not workout for him he will leave. Randori training is more appropriate for this than sparring in my opinion.
Situations that start as self-defense can change to mutual combat, and can look a bit like sparring as now both people’s egos refuse to let them leave. That’s where you get slug fests.