Sparring: More Harm Than Good?

[MJS]

In this thread, Allenjp made a comment that caught my eye and I wanted to start a seperate thread for discussion on the subject. He said this:

One other thing about some of the OP's posts, that I have tried to say time and again. If you feel that techniques that aren't used in free full contact sparring against fully resistant opponents can't be effective in a real fight, IMHO you are wrong. There are many, many techniques that are simply too DANGEROUS to practice at full speed in free sparring, because they are intended to seriously injure, maim, or even kill your opponent. That is why many disciplines, and individual schools feel that free sparring can lead to a fighter developing bad habits. In the stress of a real fight, concious thought for many people goes right out the window, and they revert back to what they most often do in practice, and if they practice too much in sparring, that will be non lethal or non injurious techniques, which may be just what you need to employ in a serious situation to quickly put an opponent out of comission and save your life.

Now, I'll preface this by saying that I'm in full agreement with what he said. Many arts, are frowned upon because of a lack of or very little sparring. But that does not mean that the art in itself is bad. Certain groups make fun of those that dont spar, usually poking fun at what they call, "The deadly" strikes such as eye shots, hits to the groin, etc.

An art that usually takes alot of heat is Ninjutsu, or more properly named, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Folks say that its useless because they don't spar and because the students of that art think that its too 'deadly' due to the dirty tricks.

Now, I don't feel that one should have to fall back on an eye shot to win a fight and unless you do it, you're going to lose. But, if you can't do those things, its one less tool that you have to use if needed. Then again, throwing on a pair of goggles, will allow those hits to the eyes to be trained, even in sparring. But, there are things that just can't be trained due to the nature of them. So while they're not done in sparring per se, they are still drilled, usually in techniques, and done in a slow fashion, ie: simulated. In other words, we can train a technique in which the persons neck would be broke, however, we make adjustments so we avoid that injury, yet the context is still there. I do think that sparring is good. However, I don't think that people should lose focus and assume that is all you need. Sparring and real fighting or SD are 2 different things.

Enough rambling and on with the question...do you feel that sparring is all thats needed or do you feel that it should be proportioned with the other aspects of the art?

 

[jkembry]

In my training we use slow-speed sparring and I have learned much from that...as well as watching others spar. Being new to MA (less than a year) I believe sparring should be proportional to other training, kata, bunkai, etc. I can only speak for the way I feel about my training in my particular style (Uechi-ryu). I am sure other styles will be different. It will be interesting to see what others think.

 

[Sukerkin]

Sparring is a useful adjunct where practical and it certainly helps those who have not come from a 'rough and tumble' background to not fear taking a hit or dishing one out.

I find it a good sign that this thread has come up actually as it makes a nice change to flip the coin over from all those threads naysaying kata/drills as a training format.

Kata is where you learn to do the techniques properly and with power. Sparring is practice for a different set of skills. Taking hits, as noted above and also learning a little about tactical changes and opportunities 'on the fly'.

There are things that are simply not practical (as in 'safe') to practise in sparring. For example, in common with other arts, in Lau there are strikes to 'sensitive' or potentially fatal areas and breaking techniques which you just cannot use in a fight that is not real.

 

[Grenadier]

The way I see it, if someone can throw a strong, accurate punch, with good timing, distance, focus, etc., and have its point of impact at the surface of the target (excellent control), then I see no reason why he can't aim that same punch 12 inches beyond the mere surface, in a real fight, since he certainly has the ability to land his punch where he intends for it to land.

Whether nor not the fist will be properly clenched, or whether he's going to be balanced or off-balance when he makes the impact, is a different matter, though, and that's something that does need some contact work. This does not, however, mean that sparring is the only way of learning such mechanics. For example, the said student could punch at a heavy bag that has been mounted against a wall, where a poorly clenched fist will be felt with any type of hard punch, and where bad balance will certainly be evident.

I have nothing against free sparring in a dojo, as long as the two fighters spar in a civil manner, and don't try to hit each others' vitals. If they want to throw some solid punches to each others' bodies, etc., then so be it. It gives people a chance to experience being hit, and how to deal with such situations, without having the multitude of injuries that would normally occur, if full face contact were allowed.

Sparring is a good tool to use in a dojo. However, it's not the only tool, and every teacher should have several tools at his access.

 

[Flying Crane]

My kenpo instructor assisted with the shodan test for a student from another school. The school in which this student trained has a heavy focus on sparring.

What my instructor noticed was this: when they were testing the student on his reactions to attacks, he ignored all of the self defense techniques that are the foundation of kenpo, and instead tried to spar his way out of the attack. Seems like no matter what the attack was, be it an arm grab, bearhug, strike, whatever, this student would try to wriggle away and then face the attacker and turn it into a sparring match. Had he simply done his techniques, or variants of such, he could have nullified the attack from the getgo.

 

[bowser666]

Sparring is just one ingredient in the recipe of becoming a good Martial Artist. Sparring is critical as all the techniques in the world don't amount to anything, if you have never tried to apply them. You also need to learn how to take a hit as well. Granted it is not as random or chaotic as a real street fight , but it will help teach you how to control your fear, adrenaline, etc....... It all comes with time.........

 

[exile]

My kenpo instructor assisted with the shodan test for a student from another school. The school in which this student trained has a heavy focus on sparring.

What my instructor noticed was this: when they were testing the student on his reactions to attacks, he ignored all of the self defense techniques that are the foundation of kenpo, and instead tried to spar his way out of the attack. Seems like no matter what the attack was, be it an arm grab, bearhug, strike, whatever, this student would try to wriggle away and then face the attacker and turn it into a sparring match. Had he simply done his techniques, or variants of such, he could have nullified the attack from the getgo.

And this is affliction is particularly acute in Taekwondo, meaning, the network of TKD schools which put so much emphasis on the Olympic sparring specialization of the art that they no longer know what SD applications are. Not being able to see the forest for the trees is one thing; cutting down all but one tree and then declaring that tree to be the forest is something else, and it describes the contemporary fate of TKD in much of North America. The nostrum seems to be, well, all of this stuff works if you just open up the distance and then use your kicks and whatnot. But realistically, you are very likely not going to get a chance to do that, and if you could do that, then you wouldn't need TKD, because you could just keep on going, in the opposite direction of your attacker, and get away! Minimal risk, minimal legal complications, minimal ethical issues. The point is, from an SD point of view, competence in a MA becomes critical just in those situations in which you can't open the distance, and your only alternative to getting damaged is close-in fighting—which often requires you to close the distance still further.

My take is, it's completely irresponsible for MA schools to sell sparring as preparation for the nasty, extremely unpleasant and perilous situations in which a dangerous bully, sadist or defective brings the threat of physical violence to your doorstep in a way that you can't ignore, or deflect, or escape from. Given the treasure-house of resources that the TMAs provide for just that situation, there's absolutely no excuse for McDojo/McDojangs to palm off strategies which require you to have eight feet of distance between you and your attacker as viable SD, or to claim that effective point-scoring has anything but an accidental relationship (at best) to your ability to protect yourself.

The problem is, as in your example, FC, a lot of people actually believe that learning to handle yourself under the basically antiseptic conditions of a ring match has anything to do with what you're facing when some belligerant jerk in a bar or convenience store lineup or wherever decides that all of his problems are your fault and you're gonna pay for that...

 

[Sukerkin]

That is a very accurately depicted picture of the falsity that over dependence on sparring can bring, Exile

.

I used to love sparring in my Lau days but even tho' we did what was deemed to be full contact, our instructors took care to tell us time and again that sparring was good practice for competitions (and our school used to win a LOT). What they warned us of was not to make any assumptions about the reality of fighting from our sparring.

It's that bit that I think gets lost sometimes in the Sparring versus Kata debates. Sparring, exclusively pursued without any other forms (yeah, MA pun attack !) of training, fosters bad technique. Kata exclusively, even with good visualisation, will always benefit from actually seeing and reacting to a physical person trying to hit you.

Kata and Sparring, where at all practicible, is superior in results than either alone.

 

[kempo-vjj]

I train in phillipino and silat with a mixture of other things. A while ago I attended a class where my children go and sparred a black belt from their school. It is a traditional Okinawan Goju school. I had never sparred before except like two step sparring maybe, slowly. I felt all out of sorts. My training is find an entry, destructions and take down/ take out, giving me my exit. Not playing tag. I felt at first like I was missing something from my training, but then I had to put it in perspective.

 

[Empty Hands]

You can drill techniques, even with partners, for many years until you can do them in your sleep. However, if you never try to apply those techniques in a chaotic situation where you don't know what is coming next and failure means a fist in the face, then when you face that situation your techniques will fail you.

"Hey, why didn't he leave his arm out when he punched so that I could arm bar him and unleash my 37 move technique of destruction!"

Sparring is also invaluable in other difficulties you will face. Only sparring can effectively teach you timing and distance in a fighting situation. Only sparring can teach you if your efforts at set-ups and deception are working. Only sparring will teach you what it takes to apply your techniques on the fly in a non-ideal situation.

That said, many schools seem to have their sparring sessions turn into generic kickboxing with nary a technique in sight. It is important to incorporate the rest of your system into your sparring. The reason many don't of course is that it is difficult to do. An important clue as to what might happen if you have to apply your techniques when your life is on the line and you have never trained with a resisting opponent!

 

[Andrew Green]

If in a real situation I will "fight as I train" and stick to the rules, not doing anything that is "dangerous" because that is how I train, will these people practicing deadly techniques not also "fight the way they train" and pretend to excecute deadly techniques without following through because that is how they train?

It seems like a very weak argument to me as that one comes out of it pretty naturally.

 

[stickarts]

Sparring is just one ingredient in the recipe of becoming a good Martial Artist. Sparring is critical as all the techniques in the world don't amount to anything, if you have never tried to apply them. You also need to learn how to take a hit as well. Granted it is not as random or chaotic as a real street fight , but it will help teach you how to control your fear, adrenaline, etc....... It all comes with time.........

These comments touch upon my view as well. Sparring is required with us before you can test for blackbelt. I have found sparring to be a very valuable training method for timing, learning what you can give and take, conditioning, and confidence building. Its certainly not a real fight and its important that students know that, but it does still develop skills.
Not only that, I have found sparring to be lots of fun! Getting in there and learning and also really going for it. :0)

 

[Kacey]

As with anything else in life - in martial arts or outside of it - there needs to be a balance. Each piece of a martial art is there for a reason, and needs to be presented to students and practiced in a balanced amount; otherwise, you run the risk of missing something valuable. Sparring is an important part of martial arts to me - and the one that freaked me out the most when I started - everything has its place, and needs to be included.

If you don't agree with the above, well, differences make the world more interesting! And there are a wide variety of MAs and classes out there that will fit the preferences of any practitioner - so enjoy!

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Great topic!
I think sparring/martial sports are very valuable tools but I think there is a tendency in some circles to overemphasize sparring and grappling matches as representative of fighting ability and what works in a fight. You may have a better idea of how you perform under pressure but you run the risk of conditioning yourself to respond improperly to dangerous situations.

I'm reminded of an article I read a while back about a professional MMA fighter who was attacked in a back alley in Las Vegas by two thugs. The fighter scooped one of the thugs up in a double-leg takedown and slammed his head against a dumpster, knocking him out cold. The other thug pulled out a knife and tried to stab the fighter. The fighter side-stepped and executed a beautiful arm-drag, taking the criminal down and putting him in cross-legged arm bar. The bad guy began tapping and the MMA fighter let go and was thereby stabbed an ungodly number of times. I think it was 47 but I could be wrong.

Another example was the time the two guys on TUF got in a fight in the backyard. The one guy tried to pull guard and arm-bar but the other lifted him up and slammed his head on the concrete pool deck.

My teacher also told me story of a fight he got into outside a bar. My teacher said he threw a perfect roundhouse kick to the head and said to himself, "Yeah, I scored a point!" and then realized he was in a fight with an annoyed drunk guy that he just tapped on the head with his foot.

_Don Flatt

 

[FearlessFreep]

Said it before and say it again

When all else is equal, size wins
When all else is equal, speed wins
When all else is equal, strength wins
When all else is equal, technique wins
When all else is equal, training wins
When all else is equal, experience wins
When all else is equal, conditioning wins
When all else is equal, will wins
Things are never equal


My point behind that concept is that any encounter is going to be an n-dimensional matrix of interactions, if you will.

Look at any sport. In football does good defense beat good offense? You can't say because my good pass rush may beat your good pass blocking but your defense if just enough to beat my mediocre offense so that my superior defense is not enough to stop your good enough offense from scoring just enough to win. Too many dimensions to pin it on one idea.

From that standpoint, softball is better self-defense training than bowling, even if neither is really good training it in it's own right.

Is Tae Kwon Do Olympic sparring really good training for a street fight? Well, it does encourage speed, stamina, strength, and quick thinking... which is good and may be good enough, even if the ingrained tactics and techniques are not the greatest training for that venue. Then againm you could say the same about football, or soccer.

Full contact sparring, no contact sparring, forms, 'liveness' training, partner drills...what's the best mix? Hmm.... I dunno..but they all become part of the whole.

So you and I are in a fight...does your 'unrealistic sparring tactics and techniques' beat my 'more realistic but never pressure tested tactics and techniques'.... um.. I don't know. Probably then comes down to who is bigger and who is faster and who wants to live more and...lots of things.

I guess it seems to me that there are a lot of ways to train and your chance of survival depends not just in the mechanisms of your training but a lot fo things about how you apply it to your own body and can draw upon it when in need.

 

[sgtmac_46]

My Hyena style is far too deadly to spar with......it would kill virtually anyone who tried.

Seriously, if you want to learn how to impress your friends and neighbors with your Staff routine to music, sparring isn't important. If you want to know how to engage in physical conflict with another human being, sparring is CRITICAL!

 

[Flying Crane]

perhaps the real question is....what KIND of sparring?

 

[Sukerkin]

Absolutely, FC. Sparring, at the end of the day is playing at fighting. Noone, so far at least, has said that it has no value - it's just that you have to keep it's value in perspective.

As with anything in the martial arts, you have to beware of extremes and meld elements together that compliment each other.

So that said, anyone fancy sparring with me? What d'ya mean it's dangerous? Doesn't everyone practice their emptyhand arts against live blade katana's? :lol:.

 

[Flying Crane]

So that said, anyone fancy sparring with me?

Sure. I'll use my 80# recurve bow and a score of bodkins. Starting at 50 meters...

:rofl:

 

[Sukerkin]

You will note that I very carefully delineated the parameters - smart-pant :lol:.