Some thoughts about discussing the martial arts

[Cirdan]

No problem with walking away from the guy with his foot nailed to the flor, really that is his business. However if he rips up the floorboard he is attached to, limps after me and starts throwing nails at me insisting I take a hammer and drive it trough my foot (I have such wonderful things to show you!) the answer is going to be HELL NO!

 

[Hanzou]

Do you?

I mean "Bigfoot,?" Really?

Again, that implies rarity. A notion backed by experts such as Abernethy and even our own Kman.

ANd when you use superlatives, like "none whatsoever," even if that's not what you meant, it kind of makes the difference moot-makes it sound like,"I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist."

If you looked a bit further into that quote, I was talking about sparring matches I had seen on video. I even posted another video showing a karate school that you posted who initially performed bunkai, but when free sparring, did no bunkai whatsoever. This indicates that even in schools where the bunkai is known and practiced, it is not a natural part of their general fighting technique.

Then, later, it became, "Well, if that's it, it's ridiculous."

What's ridiculous, to me, anyway, is that someone apparently expects an art like Shotokan to have a "ground game" or something, if someone says that it's got "grappling."

If someone tells me that Shotokan has leglocks, chokes, and takedowns, I expect some level of ground game yes. Further if you're going to tell me that Shotokan and other forms of karate have grappling, then I expect to see a competent level of it. Again, Abernethy makes it clear that grappling in karate is crude, and not on the level of even MMA grappling. If karate's grappling is truly on that level, then its obvious why many karate schools wouldn't teach it in the first place.

What's even more ridiculous is that someone who claims to "have a black belt in Shotokan," wouldn't have seen and understood the throws from Shotokan-throws that are taught almost from the beginning, and have been since the 1920's. Though maybe not completely-maybe your teacher didn't care about these things-people have been having open conversations about them, and what various mawatte mean (besides running out of gym floor!) and how they're applied for years, anyway-since the 1980's There's grappling in karate-you may not like it, but it's an established fact....

And yet we have our local karate expert saying the following;

K-MAN SAID: ↑
Read the post. Shotokan was a Japanese form of karate that removed most if not all of the grappling. Otsuka reintroduced the grappling component after studying with Okinawan masters. He just put back into his karate what was already in traditional karate. To me Japanese karate in the main may be classified as traditional but not in the sense of being the same as the original, but perhaps that's a little deep for you.

That's my experience with Shotokan as well; A Japanese form of karate with most if not all the grappling removed.

 

[Tez3]

I think continuing an argument from a thread that has been locked is defiance in the face of the Mods decision to lock it. To carry on the same arguments is indeed having your foot nailed to the floor and going round in circles.
Making the same snide comments ('local karate expert') and rehashing the same arguments from another thread on this one is yet again provocative. It shows no willingness to pursue anything other than their own agenda.
I would say though that 'crude' is a matter, like beauty' of interpretation, karate grappling may be 'crude' by BJJ standards but if it is effective then it does it's job. It doesn't need to be 'beautiful'.
Now, I'm off for a nice cuppa before this thread is locked too.

 

[elder999]

And here you really have it, Tony-for some people, their martial path becomes dogmatic-like a religious zealot that will brook no tolerance of an alternate viewpoint:Evolution? Where's the evidence? That's just a theory! You can't call 'adaptation' 'evolution!" and so on-even worse when they shift positions and requalify what they said.

Even worse when they can't just say, I was wrong. or, better yet (and I did not get to where I am in my career without frequently using this one) I did not know that.

It's easy:

Did you know that kali has empty hand techniques, and grappling?

No. I did not know that-tell me more.

Just that would make conversations like this a lot easier to get through for some people.

 

[Hanzou]

I think continuing an argument from a thread that has been locked is defiance in the face of the Mods decision to lock it. To carry on the same arguments is indeed having your foot nailed to the floor and going round in circles.
Making the same snide comments ('local karate expert') and rehashing the same arguments from another thread on this one is yet again provocative. It shows no willingness to pursue anything other than their own agenda.
I would say though that 'crude' is a matter, like beauty' of interpretation, karate grappling may be 'crude' by BJJ standards but if it is effective then it does it's job. It doesn't need to be 'beautiful'.
Now, I'm off for a nice cuppa before this thread is locked too.

No one's continuing the argument. I'm simply point out that I'm being accused of saying something I never said in the first place. Which btw is a prime example of the problem with having discussions on this forum.

 

[ballen0351]

No one's continuing the argument. I'm simply point out that I'm being accused of saying something I never said in the first place. Which btw is a prime example of the problem with having discussions on this forum.

Except this topic isnt about you.

 

[Tez3]

 

[Steve]

For what it's worth, this is a perfect encapsulation of the issue. Tez, Ballen, Elder and Hanzou are all arguing, each pointing fingers at the other, and all saying, "It's not me; it's you."

 

[ballen0351]

For what it's worth, this is a perfect encapsulation of the issue. Tez, Ballen, Elder and Hanzou are all arguing, each pointing fingers at the other, and all saying, "It's not me; it's you."

And you standing to the side playing the "holier then thou" card doing the same exact thing

 

[Dirty Dog]

OK folks. Let's return to the original topic - and stay there - shall we?

 

[elder999]

I'm here to learn and enjoy the conversation, not to prove how much more I know than other people.
I will never, ever change anyone's mind by calling them ignorant or otherwise insulting them.

WHat if they are ignorant?

I
If the person I'm talking to does understand my point, but still doesn't agree with me, it's a waste of time to take offense or to repeat myself endlessly.

Point taken.

A waving "bye-bye" smiley would go good right about here...
but "Stop" will have to do.....(not even a "yawning" smiley...

 

[Tez3]

[

WHat if they are ignorant?



Point taken.

A waving "bye-bye" smiley would go good right about here...
but "Stop" will have to do.....(not even a "yawning" smiley...

I quite like this one, .

 

[Steve]

And you standing to the side playing the "holier then thou" card doing the same exact thing

I'm genuinely trying to discuss the actual topic at hand. The topic for this thread is "Some thoughts on discussing martial arts." We've discussed some of the rhetorical loops we find ourselves in, and strategies for avoiding them. As I said before, you guys are providing a perfect object lesson on the very topic of discussion.

In the future, I will try to avoid appearing holier than thou, and appreciate your feedback.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

WHat if they are ignorant?

They very well may be ignorant, but calling them that will just cause them to dig in their heels and double down on their position. It's not an effective tactic for convincing someone that they are wrong.

 

[tshadowchaser]

When discussing martial arts if you say "karate" be sure to state if you are only talking about Japanese and Okinawan arts or if you are including all striking arts, or a specific group or systems.
If there is a question on a specific style/system are you asking about a certain school within that system or a generalized question on the whole system?
when talking bladed weapons set the length of that weapon, different lengths may give a different answer
Points of difference in thoughts can be expressed in a positive manner with stated references but those references may not be the only ones on the subject and there may be differing thoughts that can be referenced
No one ever changes someone else mind in an argument.

 

[Cirdan]

I'm genuinely trying to discuss the actual topic at hand. The topic for this thread is "Some thoughts on discussing martial arts." We've discussed some of the rhetorical loops we find ourselves in, and strategies for avoiding them. As I said before, you guys are providing a perfect object lesson on the very topic of discussion.

In the future, I will try to avoid appearing holier than thou, and appreciate your feedback.

Holier than thou and preaching one thing then practicing the exact opposite is very much how your posts have come across at least to me, not seeing further than the tip of your own nose. I very much look forward to you making an effort at improving that introspection and accountability thingie you have suggested to the rest of us so many times.

 

[Steve]

Holier than thou and preaching one thing then practicing the exact opposite is very much how your posts have come across at least to me, not seeing further than the tip of your own nose. I very much look forward to you making an effort at improving that introspection and accountability thingie you have suggested to the rest of us so many times.

I'll do my best to practice what I preach. Thanks for helping me to become a better poster, cirdan.


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[Dirty Dog]

WHat if they are ignorant?

Then you can (and I think should) try to educate. But that isn't always possible. If the person doesn't want to be educated - if they cling to whatever misconceptions, false assumptions, incorrect facts, or whatever - then calling them names or engaging the practice of flogging a dead horse isn't really productive. We're all guilty of doing so, sometimes, but it's rarely (if ever) helpful.

 

[Cirdan]

I'll do my best to practice what I preach. Thanks for helping me to become a better poster, cirdan.


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You are welcome. I am sure you can succeed if you really want to.

 

[Steve]

You are welcome. I am sure you can succeed if you really want to.

I'll do my best. As the topic is how to be more constructive in our discussions, do you have any specific, helpful suggestions? Perhaps others can benefit from my poor example.


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