Passing Judgement on other styles...
- Thread starter Flying Crane
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OP
OP
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Are you open minded to the idea that perhaps some systems have figured out how to apply good physics and physiology in a way that perhaps you haven't experienced?
If someone were to describe a method to you that was new to you and seemed like it didn't line up with your understanding of physics and physiology, would you dismiss it out of hand, or at least keep an open mind until you see an example or gain some level of experience with it?
that's really the heart of what I am getting to...
championmarius
Yellow Belt
That's my personal goal. I have been guilty of dismissing something out of hand, but I try to at least see it/try it before I give it a thumbs down.
I guess I am not very picky, I'll try anything once. If it seems halfway workable, I'll try to figure it out and extract what I need/want from it. If not, then oh well I looked at something new.
The list of styles I dislike is very short. the list of "paper tiger" martial artists i dislike is quite lengthy. I have always held that its the meat not the method that is faulty and useless.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
This is interesting, it made me realize something.
The answer is yes as long as it is a style I do not train or know little about. However the answer is no if it is a style I know and train and it is just way off the mark from my understanding. Example, a whole lot of Taiji applications I have been shown or told about completely miss the mark as to Taiji theory and practice. Now you call your style Whatsyamahoositquan and show me the same thing I would give it more thought. However this is not to say I will not still say it is garbage after I see it.
Edit/Addition
Basically some one tells me they have applications for Grasp the sparrow’s tail and what they describe is Ippon Seoinage then I will be closed minded about it. But describe that same thing to me and call it Judo, Jujitsu or Aikido and I will look at it and think it is viable. But based on Taiji Theory it is not Taiji.
No one wants to spend money and time on a second rate or third rate system. So, the ego makes one look at what they do as the best.
I used to judge open tournments, but as what I was looking for was not what others were looking for. I found I was in the minority. I did not think I was the best nor the worst, only looking at different aspects for the judgement. I decided not to participate in those events. It did not bring joy to me, nor to those who got a low score from me or to those who were surprised with a high score from me. I would tell the sponsor of the events that I would prefer to sit out, and just watch. They would ask me to help them out. They used the word "please", and I would help.
I do not kick to the head. So, many of the kicking systems look at me and would judge that it is inferior. While others who practice one of the arts I teach, they do kick to the head. More power to them.
I use and teach weapons and many systems do not, or they teach them in such a manner that I wonder about the usefulness. But, that is not my place. I dissect what they do to try to understand how to counter it or deal with it.
I never really talked smack about arts, for even as a beginner I had friends who trained other arts and we all were just friends who also did some form of martial arts.
Good Topic.
But we ALLL know XUEFU is superior to all that came before...right :mst:
Basically I look at my martial art(s) as opposed to your martial art(s) as just another way
Years ago I use to feel any style labeled Karate was inferior until a friend of mine talked me into going to a Fumio Demura seminar. It was after that I started looking at other arts as just another way. Also I am iternally greatful to my first CMA sifu, no matter how much I do not agree with him today, for allowing us to all take over the school on Saturday afternoons and spar using whatever style we knew, it is a great way to learn and get over the arrogance of ones style.
I fear the XUEFU!
matt.m
Senior Master
You know,
I look at arts like hapkido, Tae Kwon Do, and Yudo/Judo. I have to say, well I have seen shotokan karate, Brazillian JJ, kempo, aikido and it really comes down to one thing......how well does the instructor instruct. In example: if the instructor teaches good discipline in their students and the class works hard during training time then well I believe the old saying "Use any technique that works." Wrestling, Freestyle, Greco are all three wrestling styles. Does one overshadow the other in the "My kung fu is better than yours?" No. It comes down to individual practitioners and the availability of the student get enough to use their discipline to effectively protect themselves."
I have seen a ton of "Blackbelts" that imho have absolutely no discipline to carry themselves. Is it the students or instructors fault? That is the million dollar question. It is the instructor's fault for awarding the blackbelt to begin with.
Anyone who works hard in their art outside of class is a true martial artist doesn't matter if kung fu, wing chun, karate, whatever.
I used to hear that the "Army's combat training is inferior to the Navy's version." In other words, it is easier to be a Ranger than a S.E.A.L., to that I would have to say bah. Anyone who goes through that training and survives that is just outstanding.
Same kind of thing with the martial arts. If it works and you enjoy what you do and you dig the group you're with then good. I did a lot of N.A.T.O and U.N. operation stuff in the Marine Corps. I worked with the Canadians, all of the European, and Mediterranaen servicemen and women. Everyone has a lot of different experiences and expertise that they bring to the table. So in a nutshell, I will see what others have to offer and make my own opinion. However, it is of the person not the art.
If you fight and beat a Marine then that was one person in the Marine Corps. I am here to tell you that isn't everyone that wears a Marine Corps uniform. When I was in active service I did bring the beat down to a lot of Marines and other folks in uniform. Did I judge other branches of military service based on the people I fought? The answer is no, not at all.
I look at arts like hapkido, Tae Kwon Do, and Yudo/Judo. I have to say, well I have seen shotokan karate, Brazillian JJ, kempo, aikido and it really comes down to one thing......how well does the instructor instruct. In example: if the instructor teaches good discipline in their students and the class works hard during training time then well I believe the old saying "Use any technique that works." Wrestling, Freestyle, Greco are all three wrestling styles. Does one overshadow the other in the "My kung fu is better than yours?" No. It comes down to individual practitioners and the availability of the student get enough to use their discipline to effectively protect themselves."
I have seen a ton of "Blackbelts" that imho have absolutely no discipline to carry themselves. Is it the students or instructors fault? That is the million dollar question. It is the instructor's fault for awarding the blackbelt to begin with.
Anyone who works hard in their art outside of class is a true martial artist doesn't matter if kung fu, wing chun, karate, whatever.
I used to hear that the "Army's combat training is inferior to the Navy's version." In other words, it is easier to be a Ranger than a S.E.A.L., to that I would have to say bah. Anyone who goes through that training and survives that is just outstanding.
Same kind of thing with the martial arts. If it works and you enjoy what you do and you dig the group you're with then good. I did a lot of N.A.T.O and U.N. operation stuff in the Marine Corps. I worked with the Canadians, all of the European, and Mediterranaen servicemen and women. Everyone has a lot of different experiences and expertise that they bring to the table. So in a nutshell, I will see what others have to offer and make my own opinion. However, it is of the person not the art.
If you fight and beat a Marine then that was one person in the Marine Corps. I am here to tell you that isn't everyone that wears a Marine Corps uniform. When I was in active service I did bring the beat down to a lot of Marines and other folks in uniform. Did I judge other branches of military service based on the people I fought? The answer is no, not at all.
sjansen
Orange Belt
I was in the Marines and I am here to tell you that much is true. If you judge someone by their belt or clothes you are doomed. So to, if you think that one martial art is better than another you are doomed. I have done aikido, judo, wrestling, karate, kali, jkd, tae kwon do, and silat and all are great arts.
By the way. I would have beat you down like you were a red headed step child if I had seen you in the Marines. To beat another brother in arms is futile. To brag about it is criminal. Hopefully you fought them in contest.
OP
OP
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I think it's a different story if you already have some level of experience with the art, or a closely related art that operates on many of the same theories. In that case, you are in a position to judge whether or not what someone tells you is fantasy.
When it's a very very different art that operates largely on a different theory of movement or power generation, or whatnot, then I think it's very possible that something might simply lie outside your experience. Someone might say, for example: "don't ever use this kind of step" and someone else says: "our art uses that kind of step", well maybe there is a good reason for it. Maybe that art has figured out a really good reason to use that kind of step, in a context in which the first guy has never considered.
Sometimes I think people simply have no idea what they don't know. But when they think their art or their experiences have got everything figured out, then they close their minds to the possibility that there might still be something out there that they don't know.
Thanks to everyone for the comments, by the way.
punisher73
Senior Master
I thought I would give my two cents on this because I think I know what thread spawned this from over on kenpotalk concerning "physical no-no's"
In that case it was two seperate issue at hand, it wasn't saying one art was BETTER than another, it was a case of doing things biomechanically the best way. http://kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8684
There are some things that may be done in a style that can work for it's practicioners and they can do it effectively, but that doesn't mean that it is the most efficient way to do it within the confines of how the body is meant to move.
Look at high kicking and how many older masters have to have hip replacements because years of making the body do something it wasn't designed to do takes it toll. Are high kicks effective? I have heard of many people being great at them and being able to use them effectively. That still does not negate that they are not good for the body.
I don't think it is "passing judgement" on the style to say that something isn't the most biomechanically optimal in regards of "my style is better than yours".
In that case it was two seperate issue at hand, it wasn't saying one art was BETTER than another, it was a case of doing things biomechanically the best way. http://kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8684
There are some things that may be done in a style that can work for it's practicioners and they can do it effectively, but that doesn't mean that it is the most efficient way to do it within the confines of how the body is meant to move.
Look at high kicking and how many older masters have to have hip replacements because years of making the body do something it wasn't designed to do takes it toll. Are high kicks effective? I have heard of many people being great at them and being able to use them effectively. That still does not negate that they are not good for the body.
I don't think it is "passing judgement" on the style to say that something isn't the most biomechanically optimal in regards of "my style is better than yours".
Guardian
Black Belt
I don't think it is "passing judgement" on the style to say that something isn't the most biomechanically optimal in regards of "my style is better than yours".
This is a correct statement here. By doing this you are just looking at and making an observation on certain Techniques that could be done better, that is not degrading a whole system. A big difference in my view.
This is a correct statement here. By doing this you are just looking at and making an observation on certain Techniques that could be done better, that is not degrading a whole system. A big difference in my view.
As always Terry, right to the point. J Every person needs to feel their art is the best, because of all the time and effort we put into it. There is a big problem though , with people cutting down others arts. On a positive note, this forum gives all of us a platform on which to state our case in an appropriate way, and by doing so, we all learn. :asian:
This controversy has been debated since the beginning of time. The bottom line is, defeating your opponent, whether it is sport or self defense. My Sensei always told us that the best technique is the one that works when you need it to.
This is exactly why any good “system” should teach wisdom and good common sense along with the physical part. Sorry I came in late on this thread, there is so many good posts to comment on.
OP
OP
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
You are correct, in that this thread stems from that discussion on Kenpotalk, and I thought it might be interesting to get the input of people from other systems. I find that often in a largely single-topic forum like Kenpotalk (i.e. all things "kenpo") the point of view can be narrow and even stifling at times. Everyone is coming from a similar general background and so largely people are preaching to the choir. In this context the consideration of different ideas is not always encouraged.
In a multi-topic forum like Martialtalk, I often feel the discussion has greater potential for sharing of different ideas, since the membership background tends to be more varied.
Now that being said, the original disagreement centered around whether it makes sense to pivot on the heel of the foot. It's interesting that no context was ever given for the use of the pivot. Under what circumstances is the pivot being done, and what is the goal and intended accomplishment? This was never defined, instead it was a general statement that it's a No-No to pivot on the heel, as some feel it is a violation of biomechanics and leaves one unstable, and to do so is sub-optimal. Under certain circumstances I would agree with that.
However, I simply pointed out the example of Fu style Bagua, that does use a pivot and even a spin, on the heel. I merely pointed that out to share the fact that some systems have figured out how to do this with extreme effect, and not everyone would agree that it is an absolute no-no.
I don't expect the readership to have experience with Fu style Bagua. It's a fairly rare system. I am lucky to have a sifu who does have experience with it. While I have not studied it and cannot give a technical breakdown of what they are doing, I have had enough exposure to be aware of it.
I asked my sifu yesterday for a little information about how the pivot is used in Fu style Bagua. It is not used in a simple pivot from a Horse stance in to a Bow stance for delivering a reverse punch or similar technique. I suspect the kenpo discussion MAY have had that kind of thing in mind, but again since it was never defined, I do not know that for sure.
Fu style uses the pivot as a stepping method in changing directions. It also uses it as a spin, to generate power in landing a strike with the whole body. At the moment of impact on the strike, the feet are planted in a solid stance, you would not still be up on your heel. That's the best I can describe it, given my own extremely brief knowledge of it. It would be far better to see an example and even train in the method to understand it fully, and I cannot convey that here in the discussions.
Additionally, the pivot on the heel is considered a minor technique in Bagua. It's in there, but it's one of a vast array of techniques, not all of which can be mastered by everyone. It just so happens that Fu Zhen Song was very good at using this, so in his lineage of Bagua it became more common than in elsewhere.
Additionally, it does not tear down the body in the way that years of extremely high kicking can lead to damage to the hips. The way the Fu people use the pivot, it actually makes a lot of sense, anatomically. This is not the same as your analogy of the old guys who have spent 50 years doing high kicks, and now need hip replacements. This is simply not in the same category at all.
This is the type of use and application that I have never seen in any form of kenpo, and I would be very very surprised if any form of kenpo had something like it. So I'm not surprised that it would be unknown among that crowd. So within the context of kenpo, it is an unknown and is not understood nor done. That's OK, since all systems rely on a body of techniques that fit in their methods. No system can contain everything, after all.
So this brings me back to the discussion here. What I find surprising is how ready people can be to dismiss another method as "sub-optimal", when they have had no experience and do not understand the context of how a method is being used. Sometimes it's OK to simply file away a piece of information under the category of "huh, I didn't know that, that's interesting". Maybe at a later date you will have the chance to explore it further.
But it IS passing judgement to say that something isn't the most biomechanically optimal, when you don't even understand the whole picture of what is being done, and how it is being used.
takadadojokeith
Orange Belt
I'd suggest checking out some philosphy of science by guys like Thomas Kuhn and Paul Feyerabend. They wrote a lot about judging knowledge from different perspectives. It's an old debate, but one that seems pertinent to judging different martial arts.
matt.m
Senior Master
Just a quick question Scott. When were you in and what is your paygrade jarhead? LOL! I was in during Post-Gulf War and got out just before Kosovo. I wasn't bragging, just stating what happened to make note and example. I hope you were kidding about the whole "Beat you like a redheaded step-child" thing pal. If you weren't you owe me an apology unless you hold a rank higher than Sgt., have been in combat in places such as Albania, Tunisia, Liberia, Haiti, Bosnia, Israel, and Turkey. I survived a 2000 ft. helicopter crash and watched the dual helicopter crash during Operation Purple Star, pulled a lot of Marines and Army personnel out of the Atlantic.
So as I see it, I feel as though you challenged me and that is against the rules of this site. They have their own UCMJ,(Uniform Code of Military Justice). Threatening or making another member feel challenged is grounds for dismissal. Plus I found in the Marines like any dojang there is always that "Tough Guy" oh well.
An instructor of mine told me that in general, there is not a bad style or a bad technique. Instead it's a matter of application. Apply a "bad" technique the right way and it will work. Apply a "good" technique the wrong way and it will not work. The same is true for styles.
That's why he told us that even though we work a lot of grappling, we should think a boxer can't take us out merely because he doesn't grapple.
That's why he told us that even though we work a lot of grappling, we should think a boxer can't take us out merely because he doesn't grapple.
