Sokeship Council, Grandmaster or NOT????

[BlackCatBonz]

ok i did a little bit of searching, and i know this whole jack stern thing has been beaten, flogged, shot, and blown up with a nuclear bomb..........is this guy still teaching?

 

[RRouuselot]

ok i did a little bit of searching, and i know this whole jack stern thing has been beaten, flogged, shot, and blown up with a nuclear bomb..........is this guy still teaching?

If you do a google search for him you will find all kinds of places where he signs other folks "guest books" on their website.
I did manage to find his offical website, you can find his bogus bio here:
http://www.kyha.net/home1/

Here we see the connection to Yamaguchi:
http://www.kyha.net/jspictures/view.nhtml?profile=jspictures&UID=10002

 

[Brad Dunne]

Just an observation, I thought Yamaguchi spoke very little english, which would make it doubtful that he could write that well in english? Another question poses itself, which also has a bearing on the picture. Wasen't he also left handed?

 

[TimoS]

Just an observation, I thought Yamaguchi spoke very little english, which would make it doubtful that he could write that well in english? Another question poses itself, which also has a bearing on the picture. Wasen't he also left handed?

As I remember it, the writing has been proven to be fake, which doesn't really surprise me at all

 

[RRouuselot]

As I remember it, the writing has been proven to be fake, which doesn't really surprise me at all

Yes it has been proven to be fake.

 

[James Kovacich]

Again some one tell me how the language or the customs of the the parent country will make you a better martial artist? How long do we have to adopt another culture before we make the arts our own?? How long did Japan wait before making Te in Karate-How long did Korean wait before making Karate Tae Kwon Do??

I have to agree with this guys quote on another thread because it speaks the TRUTH.

I think Asia should STAY OUT of America's buisness. Our systems are no longer theirs. The Gracies PROVED just how weak all systems REALLY were and at that time Japan PROVED themselves to be weak. They didn't get better until years later after they CROSSTRAINED.

Watch the early Pride fights and the others that sprang up. There was almost no rules. NO EXCUSES! :uhyeah:

 

[Don Roley]

I have to agree with this guys quote on another thread because it speaks the TRUTH.

I think Asia should STAY OUT of America's buisness. Our systems are no longer theirs. The Gracies PROVED just how weak all systems REALLY were and at that time Japan PROVED themselves to be weak. They didn't get better until years later after they CROSSTRAINED.

Watch the early Pride fights and the others that sprang up. There was almost no rules. NO EXCUSES! :uhyeah:

My god, where did that come from all of a sudden?

Listen, we try to encourage friendly discussion here. Lashing out like that just becasue public opinion is going overwhelmingly against you does not help with maintaining friendly and open conversation. We can disagree while still remaining civil.

I realize your position. Everyone seems to be against the idea that your orginization judges arts they have no experience in. And people experessed disbelief when your hanshi said he could judge an entire arts combat effectiveness based on a video tape shorter than many yellow belt tests depite the fact it seems he never has had to use his art to save his life. And now Robert has shown that your claims of checking credentials and quality assurance are rather questionable because you originally let Jack Stern in the door.

That is still no reason to crank up the flame thrower :flame: and lash out with a post that basically says "JAPAN SUCKS! AMERICA RULZ!!!!!!"

It seems a cheap attempt to divert the attention and appeal to the patriotism of Americans. It really has no place in this discussion. If you don't want to have anything to do with Asia, why use terms like "soke" instead of perfectly good English words? And how is Asia sticking its nose into American martial arts? Are you telling some of us to shut up instead of pointing out that the terms and such you use are not the same as they are in the native language? Are you so afraid that the comparison of the way things are done in Asia will make you look bad that you want there to not even be a discussion about it? Well, martialtalk is about discussion, and the only person that seems to be telling others that they have to defer to great masters seems to be you with your comments like "where were YOU in 1963" and such.

I am not going to touch the America vs Asia subject. It is totally without merit to the conversation at hand. I find your arguements to be silly, but you seem to want us to debate the superiority of one over the other rather than keep the attention on the problems with self proclaimed experts calling themselves soke which is the subject of the thread.

 

[James Kovacich]

My god, where did that come from all of a sudden?

Listen, we try to encourage friendly discussion here. Lashing out like that just becasue public opinion is going overwhelmingly against you does not help with maintaining friendly and open conversation. We can disagree while still remaining civil.

I realize your position. Everyone seems to be against the idea that your orginization judges arts they have no experience in. And people experessed disbelief when your hanshi said he could judge an entire arts combat effectiveness based on a video tape shorter than many yellow belt tests depite the fact it seems he never has had to use his art to save his life. And now Robert has shown that your claims of checking credentials and quality assurance are rather questionable because you originally let Jack Stern in the door.

That is still no reason to crank up the flame thrower :flame: and lash out with a post that basically says "JAPAN SUCKS! AMERICA RULZ!!!!!!"

It seems a cheap attempt to divert the attention and appeal to the patriotism of Americans. It really has no place in this discussion. If you don't want to have anything to do with Asia, why use terms like "soke" instead of perfectly good English words? And how is Asia sticking its nose into American martial arts? Are you telling some of us to shut up instead of pointing out that the terms and such you use are not the same as they are in the native language? Are you so afraid that the comparison of the way things are done in Asia will make you look bad that you want there to not even be a discussion about it? Well, martialtalk is about discussion, and the only person that seems to be telling others that they have to defer to great masters seems to be you with your comments like "where were YOU in 1963" and such.

I am not going to touch the America vs Asia subject. It is totally without merit to the conversation at hand. I find your arguements to be silly, but you seem to want us to debate the superiority of one over the other rather than keep the attention on the problems with self proclaimed experts calling themselves soke which is the subject of the thread.

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't let stern in any door and I did not say that Japan sucks.

I am not a part of any sokeship and as far as the sokeship we were talking about. Just because you guys stated that Jack Stern was a part of it and got booted does NOT make it a FACT. PROVE IT. You and your buddy need to stop twisting the truth to meet your own agenda.

I stated that Japans martial arts were proven weak by the west and they didn't get better until they started crosstraining. :uhyeah:

And you did already touched the America vs. Asia subject all along.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I have to agree with this guys quote on another thread because it speaks the TRUTH.

I think Asia should STAY OUT of America's buisness. Our systems are no longer theirs. 1.The Gracies PROVED just how weak all systems REALLY were and at that time Japan PROVED themselves to be weak. They didn't get better until years later after they CROSSTRAINED.

Watch the early Pride fights and the others that sprang up. There was almost no rules. NO EXCUSES! :uhyeah:

well i would hardly say that the gracies re-invented the wheel......they simply chose one aspect of a diverse art and concentrated on it. while someone like rickson gracie is indeed an all around excellent fighter, their reign as the unbeatable fighting family is over..........the stuff they studied was a japanese art.

 

[James Kovacich]

well i would hardly say that the gracies re-invented the wheel......they simply chose one aspect of a diverse art and concentrated on it. while someone like rickson gracie is indeed an all around excellent fighter, their reign as the unbeatable fighting family is over..........the stuff they studied was a japanese art.

I stated they showed Japan how WEAK that their martial arts were and they did.

I did NOT say they re-invented the wheel or even imply it. if I implyed anything, it was that Japan does not want to give credit where it is due. Many countries other than Japan stomped on them BEFORE they EXCEPTED REALITY and started crosstraining.

Key word CROSSTRAINING, what we are actively doing today and what they are talking us bad about. Saying things "like a little bit of this and a little bit of that" vs. their pure systems which we already know DID NOT stand up when it had a chance to.

 

[James Kovacich]

I am not going to touch the America vs Asia subject. It is totally without merit to the conversation at hand. I find your arguements to be silly, but you seem to want us to debate the superiority of one over the other rather than keep the attention on the problems with self proclaimed experts calling themselves soke which is the subject of the thread.

That is at the core of all of your statements! Why else would you or anyone else in the east worry about the sokeships and THEIR CHOICE of terminology in the west???? :uhyeah:

 

[BlackCatBonz]

That is at the core of all of your statements! Why else would you or anyone else in the east worry about the sokeships and THEIR CHOICE of terminology in the west???? :uhyeah:

i dont think that it is a sore spot with just asians. i think a lot of "traditionalist martial artists" have a problem with it. the fact is, the traditionilist people are far outnumbered by the others.

 

[tshadowchaser]

If the terms Soke and Grandmaster were taken out of the equation and these organisations simply called themsleves headmasters, creative founders, head of organisation, president, leader of XXXX. first student of. etc. I think there would be less tension and argument with what they do

 

[BlackCatBonz]

If the terms Soke and Grandmaster were taken out of the equation and these organisations simply called themsleves headmasters, creative founders, head of organisation, president, leader of XXXX. first student of. etc. I think there would be less tension and argument with what they do

i agree with you to a point. on the other hand........people like the notoriety of having the title grandmaster in front of their names even if they only have 1 years worth of experience 20 times over.

 

[RRouuselot]

My god, where did that come from all of a sudden?

They is a ctually the exact same post as #250 found here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=383028#post383028

 

[RRouuselot]

1) Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't let stern in any door and I did not say that Japan sucks.

2) I am not a part of any sokeship and as far as the sokeship we were talking about. Just because you guys stated that Jack Stern was a part of it and got booted does NOT make it a FACT. PROVE IT. You and your buddy need to stop twisting the truth to meet your own agenda.

3) I stated that Japans martial arts were proven weak by the west and they didn't get better until they started crosstraining. :uhyeah:

And you did already touched the America vs. Asia subject all along.

1)No that’s true you said they were “weak”. Either way you expressed them to be inferior.

2)No you just defend them and your pal Lou Angel for being in them. Maybe it’s because he “recognizes” your ranks as well as the “National College of Martial Arts”…..could it be THAT is why you try to protect him so much? Because if he and his business’s are discredited you are also discredited by default.

3)You proved nothing.

Hey if you think “asia” should stay out of America’s arts fine. Done use any words like “Soke”, Shihan, or things like Sifu/Sigung, karate, jujitsu, kokon ryu bujutsukan,
​

5TH DAN KEMPO JU JITSU, 5TH DAN KEMPO KARATE…..but I got those from your web page……..there is more here:

http://www.scientific-streetfighting.com/home.html

Actually I still fail to see where "Asia" has gotten into America's business.....all I see is a bunch of knuckle heads that go around mis-using "Asian" words.............

 

[arnisador]

I think using a term like 'soke' that is so clearly Japanese is like calling yourself an Earl. It's a term of respect, hereditary, that's unique to one country. I think adopting it here is somewhat disrespectful. (You hear a similar discussion about the use of 'datu' in the FMA.) What's wrong with being a headmaster?

 

[RRouuselot]

Key word CROSSTRAINING, .........

What exactly do you get when you cross train?

Do you learn take downs?
Joint locks?
grappling?


Gee the "Asian" art I already train in has all that........

 

[RRouuselot]

I think using a term like 'soke' that is so clearly Japanese is like calling yourself an Earl. It's a term of respect, hereditary, that's unique to one country. I think adopting it here is somewhat disrespectful. (You hear a similar discussion about the use of 'datu' in the FMA.) What's wrong with being a headmaster?

For the self proclaimed Soke's I think they should use "Cheif Bone head" or "Grand Dipstick".........

 

[Don Roley]

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't let stern in any door and I did not say that Japan sucks.

I stated that Japans martial arts were proven weak by the west and they didn't get better until they started crosstraining.

Proven weak vs Japan Sucks, six on one hand and a half a dozen on the other. I merely simmered down the substance and spirit of what you were saying.

As for the rest of your comment....

:-offtopic :-offtopic :-offtopic :-offtopic

because soke councils are not put together for the purpose of crosstraining.

If they were about getting together for cross training rather than resume padding, that would be a very vaild purpose in my book. But you judge an arts quality for membership by videotape and not personal experience. When you get together, the biggest physical contact you do is slapping each other on the back at your award dinners as you pile on the titles thicker and deeper.

Your attempt to get this to change to a discussion about cross training and Asia vs the West is a pretty blatent attempt to disrupt and divert the topic of this thread away from the many problems many of us have with your resume building orginizations. I disagree with your assement of the values of cross trainging and the two countries, but this thread is not about it so I will not respond.

Instead I will deal with the point raised by Arnisador.

I think using a term like 'soke' that is so clearly Japanese is like calling yourself an Earl. It's a term of respect, hereditary, that's unique to one country. I think adopting it here is somewhat disrespectful. (You hear a similar discussion about the use of 'datu' in the FMA.) What's wrong with being a headmaster?

:iws:

Terms such as "karate" and "sensei" are well known in the west. But "Soke" is not known to even a majority of American martial artists. If you have to explain that the term is a Japanese one for the inheritor of an art, why bother arguing that Americans modify words for their own use? It seems obvious to me an attempt to ape the Asian ways of martial arts and seem a bit more legitimate in people's eyes. As I see it, the people that use the term do not seem to feel they can stand on their own abilities alone and have to add to it with fancy titles and hints of Asian links. Which makes the current line of argument from the Soke board defenders all the more strange.