Sokeship Council, Grandmaster or NOT????
- Thread starter VSanhodo
- Start date
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
I just had Chinese food for dinner........it was outstanding!Aegis said:
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
TimoS said:
It wasn't Hong Kong level.............but pretty close!
Aegis
Purple Belt
Robert, in all fairness the stuff that I call Chinese food is probably about as Chinese as I amRRouuselot said:
My dad's told me that on his trip to china the food served was very different to what you buy as chinese food here, and looking at indian food too, I can understand why that might be the case!
akja said:
Do we need to report to a soke board to be legit?
Looking at all the posts here, it all seems to come down to that idea. The idea that Americans should throw off the chains of Asia, stop bowing to Asian master and........
....put on chains made in America and start bowing to American masters.
I look at those that I respect as inovators of the martial arts and can't imagine them pointing to an orginization and saying, "since I belong to this group you should respect me!" Bruce Lee, Ed Parker, The Gracies, etc... I cannot imagine them trying to claim respect from others based on the people they associate with.
And this really seems to be what soke boards are all about. Gaining legitmaticy through their association with others. Reading some folks use of their sokeship council membership, I get the mental image of the South Park line, "Respect my authority!!!!!"
And really, the arguments for soke boards I see here are not so much ones that seem to point to the positive attitude of the groups. Rather they remind me of Eric Cartman running around in his police uniform.
"How dare you judge my hanshi" seems to be the response. Well, that is what Americans do, is it not? We do not bow to kings or feel forced to accept what others tell us. Why the heck should we bow down to your self proclaimed master of the martial art that he is fit to judge others any more than us?
I think it is safe to say that someone without a strong internal Chinese martial art would have problems telling good from bad in that art, or tell why certain things are done the way they are.
Of course, there is the matter of combat effectiveness. I have seen the comments that a person who has spent 50 years in the martial arts should be able to tell what is combat effective. Oh really? I have no trouble imagining that someone could spend decades in the safety of the dojo and not know the first thing about a fight for their life. I remember when the Gracies first came on the scene and many people who had trained for decades said that a striker could beat them silly before they could be taken to the ground. They were proven wrong because they had no real experience going against a grappler.
So if someone does not have a lot of experience in real combat- the only situation where there are not rules and conditions like the strikers faced before facing the Gracies- then I think they are pretty dumb for saying they can judge what will and will not work in combat.
So, where is the proof of these judges experience in life or death combat? I am talking about things like police reports. If someone has to defend his life, it is only natural that the police would be called in. And they had to have done this enough to discount a lucky handfull of experiences to gain the experience worthy of judging others.
So, all the arts that are passed by these mavens teach defense against knife attacks. Are any of them willing to get in a cage with Don Pentecost or Marc MacYoung armed with a live blade? It seems natural that if the judges are willing to give their stamp of approval in terms of combat effectiveness to arts that teach how to defend against a knife that they should face a live one in the hands of someone like that.
But instead those of us that find the qualifications of the mavens wanting are faced with a attempt to intimidate us into respecting the authority of them just like they accuse those in Asia of requiring. I see more in common with Eric Cartman than the words of Bruce Lee.
Well, the simple fact is that until one of these judges produce some police reports of real life and death combat or agree to face even harmless guy like me with a blade in my hand, they deserve no deference to their authority. Until they show some experience in all the multiple arts they cater to I have the right to say that I do not think they are qualified.
And as an American holding the values of questioning anything I want, I will not be told to respect their authority quietly.
Don Roley said:
Mr. Roley, I think that you are misunderstanding my position.
There is some crossing over of technique between arts and then there arts that do things totally different. Heck, two arts may perform a technique that looks the same, but the application may be vastly different.
One of the ways that I learn is by looking at things from many different perspectives. This goes for martial techniques, also. When we do a technique in my art, I want to understand its depth of application. Being informed by other arts and their interpretations of that technique is very useful.
Here is an example, in our hyung, we have many joint locking applications. The general flow to a joint lock in TSD goes from striking to trapping to locking and that is what we practice. Then, I started cross training in Dan Zan Ryu Jui Jutsu. Joint locking in that art is technical, it has the very exact little motions that can make a joint lock even more effective. When I combine these two perspectives, I have a deeper understanding of the technique.
UpnorthKyosa,
I understand and agree with what you have to say in your last post. But the original point about how a stylist from one art can judge what is right or wrong in another is what I was getting at.
Yes, another art can give you greater insight. It can open you up to possibilities that you have never thought of. The best example is the insight the Gracies gave to the world of strikers. But for someone on a soke council to look at a tape of Bagua when they have never experienced the full art and then judge whether it is "correct' or not is just plain silly IMO.
I understand and agree with what you have to say in your last post. But the original point about how a stylist from one art can judge what is right or wrong in another is what I was getting at.
Yes, another art can give you greater insight. It can open you up to possibilities that you have never thought of. The best example is the insight the Gracies gave to the world of strikers. But for someone on a soke council to look at a tape of Bagua when they have never experienced the full art and then judge whether it is "correct' or not is just plain silly IMO.
Don Roley said:
I understand that point. The final say when it comes to "grading" any art should be the teacher of that art, not a board of "sokes". One may be able to learn from other arts and one may grow from their criticism, but the outsider will not understand the depth of the art in question...only the places where the two arts happen to cross paths.
Nobody asked you to respect anyone. You flat out likened him to jack Stern. That was straight up disrespect on your part. You call it your right to question and I call it disrespect to a senior martial artist.Don Roley said:
But by your last statement, you proved what they do is within their own rights. We as Americans can and will do anything we want and if others in other countries don't like it, then maybe they should start Dojo busting because nothing is going to change.
Hanshi is a good man and he does not belong in the "horror stories."
TimoS
Master of Arts
akja said:
Without taking sides in the debate whether or not he should be in Horror stories, I would just like to point out a couple of things. First of all, the fact the may be a good man doesn't really prove anything. Heck, some most likely consider even Frank Dux to be a good man. And the second point I would like to make is that whenever someone refers to their teacher by the teaching title Hanshi, it tends to make me shiver. It also reminds of one particular defender of Frank Dux...
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
jack stern
1995:
Grandmaster Jack Stern was inducted into the Christian Martial Arts Hall of Fame (Golden Life Achievement Award).
Grandmaster Jack Stern was inducted into the World Head of Family Soke Council (Instructor of the Year Award).
World Head of Family Soke Council (Martial Arts Pioneer Award).
2) That's your opinion. Other people think if you are a flag waving card caring member of the bogus [/font][/font][/font][font=arial,helvetica][font=arial,helvetica][font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]World Head of Family Soke Council you are a fake.....
More BS by Jack Stern can be found here:
http://www.kyha.net/awardsrecognition/
[/font][/font][/font]
[font=arial,helvetica][font=arial,helvetica][font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]1) He may have gotten the idea from this information:akja said:
1995:
Grandmaster Jack Stern was inducted into the Christian Martial Arts Hall of Fame (Golden Life Achievement Award).
Grandmaster Jack Stern was inducted into the World Head of Family Soke Council (Instructor of the Year Award).
World Head of Family Soke Council (Martial Arts Pioneer Award).
2) That's your opinion. Other people think if you are a flag waving card caring member of the bogus [/font][/font][/font][font=arial,helvetica][font=arial,helvetica][font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]World Head of Family Soke Council you are a fake.....
More BS by Jack Stern can be found here:
http://www.kyha.net/awardsrecognition/
[/font][/font][/font]
These are 2 differant organizations.RRouuselot said:
http://www.bushido.org/~whfsc/
Stern is not listed there.
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ALEMANY, RICHARD Grandmaster Kenpo / Founder ATAMA
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ALEXANDER GARY - 10th Dan Isshinryu. Plus Edison NJ.
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AMATO, BUDDY - 10th Dan Amato's GoJu Ryu. Middletown, NJ.
ANDERSON, GEORGE- Hanshi Traditional U.S. Karate Assn./ Int'I Traditional Bujitsu Dev. & Research Foundation. Akron, OH.
ANGEL, LOU- 10th dan Tenshi Goju. Joplin, Missouri
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FLORENDO VISITACION - 10th. dan Vee Arnis Jitsu New York
SIG KUFFERATH - 10th. dan Kodenkan Danzan Ryu Ju-jitsu
NAGLE, DON - 10th dan Isshinryu. New Jersey
RAMOS, TONY- 10th dan Augung Kajukenbo. Wahiawa, Hawaii
KANG BAN CHUAN- Inheritor Southern Lohan Kung-Fu, Singapore
PACHIVAS, JOHNNY SR.- 10th dan Shuri-Ryu. N. Miami, FL.
NGO DONG - Founder Cuong Nhu. La Mesa, California
KIM, RICHARD- Hanshi. San Francisco, California
KUHL, JOHNNY - 10th. dan Combat Karate, New York. NY.
EDWARDS, ROBERT F-9th dan Manabi Masho Ju-jitsu, Huntington, W. Virginia
URBAN, PETER-10th dan Grand Patriarch of ALL of the American Goju systems. Woodlynne, NJ.
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
akja said:
No need to waste all the bandwidth with all the bogus Soke-Doke wannabes......if you would have bothered to read the article I posted Jack Stern was booted out of that organization.
What article?RRouuselot said:
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
akja said:
Look for it
