So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?

[Kenpojujitsu3]

If kenpohack had his ribs broken as an orange or blue belt by his instructor, what is that saying? A lack of control or a sadistic streak? Anyone with a minimum amount of training can break ribs. It's demonstrating speed and power with control that, in my opinion, makes for an effective instructor. I am reminded of Joe Piscopo in the " Karate Kid" movie for some strange reason.

Kevin Kilroe

Agreed to a degree. I'm curious as to why it would be necessary to break a colored belts ribs if that is indeed what happened. That are many reasons for this such as 1) a lack of control on the instructor's part, 2) over agressiveness on the students part resulting in the student getting "thumped" to stop the aggression 3) the student running into the instructor's shots, 4) a general misjudgement of the student's range, durability or closing speed...

There are lots of possiblities on this, so I'd wait before passing judgement.

 

[Carol]

Agreed to a degree. I'm curious as to why it would be necessary to break a colored belts ribs if that is indeed what happened. That are many reasons for this such as 1) a lack of control on the instructor's part, 2) over agressiveness on the students part resulting in the student getting "thumped" to stop the aggression 3) the student running into the instructor's shots, 4) a general misjudgement of the student's range, durability or closing speed...

There are lots of possiblities on this, so I'd wait before passing judgement.

Clyde prolly doesn't need Kenpo to break anyone's ribs. He's quite strapping.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Agreed to a degree. I'm curious as to why it would be necessary to break a colored belts ribs if that is indeed what happened. That are many reasons for this such as 1) a lack of control on the instructor's part, 2) over agressiveness on the students part resulting in the student getting "thumped" to stop the aggression 3) the student running into the instructor's shots, 4) a general misjudgement of the student's range, durability or closing speed...

There are lots of possiblities on this, so I'd wait before passing judgement.

Good point. While the initial desire is there to blame Clyde for a lack of control, other circumstances can contribute. Last nasy rib break, I LEAPED into the other guy as soon as I saw him twitch to initiate movement. He was throwing a side kick to guage distance, and I effectively impaled myself on it. His fault? Nope. My own. Strategic re-education.

What does strike me as odd is that, in a sea of kenpo practitioners and a couple dozen seniors, this guy has decided -- after limited exposure -- that the pan-ultimate in kenpo movement is Larry. Mr. Parker didn't move like Mr. Tatum, either...perhaps someone should go back in time and tell him he's doing it wrong.

 

[DavidCC]

Is it the ubiquity of the inernet video clip that has fostered "moves like" as the ultimate barometer of kenpo skill?

I think we can all agree that there are professional wushu people who can move in ways that look like wire-work, and are truly awe-inspiring. And I think we can pretty much agree that this is no indication of any ability to defend themselves.

So why do we think we can look at a kenpo video and see the person's depth of ability just from observing how fluid is their joint movement or how fast their hands?

Doc, I don't mean to offend you, but I see a great deal of difference between what you teach and what Tatum and Clyde teach

ROFL this was probably taken as a compliment.

but seriously, You may be able to "see" what the LTKKF teaches on video, but I know first-hand, 90% of what I have learned about SL-4 principles cannot be seen. Well, you can see it, but unless you are told what it is you either won't notice it, or won't know what you are looking at even if you do notice it. Yes, I thought statements like that were BS until I arranged for Doc to come to my school and do a weekend of seminars and now I know.

Yes, you were a black belt before Tatum.

I think you mis-read. he was a BB before Tatum was a WHITE belt. Doc had a STUDENT who made black when Tatum made brown...

phd... yawn
What would you say if it turned out that Doc Chapel's PhD was in, say, Cinematography, or Animal husbandry, or Basket Weaving for that matter? Would that change anything? :deadhorse

 

[Bode]

However, I do have one question for you: where did you get your PhD. and what discipline did you study? I'm just curious.

It's on display, in the school, for all STUDENTS to see. Beyond that, Doc has nothing to prove to anyone. The subject has become a unnecessary focal point for people who can't attack his Kenpo.... instead, they attack the person.

 

[Rich_Hale]

It's on display, in the school, for all STUDENTS to see. Beyond that, Doc has nothing to prove to anyone. The subject has become a unnecessary focal point for people who can't attack his Kenpo.... instead, they attack the person.

Gee Whizz Bode,

You SL4 guys can be so touchy sometimes.

Missed you at the Chapel Family BBQ yesterday.

Without you and Dave I had to talk to Doc the entire day and he doesn't beleive half my stories/lies.

 

[Doc]

Is it the ubiquity of the inernet video clip that has fostered "moves like" as the ultimate barometer of kenpo skill?

I think we can all agree that there are professional wushu people who can move in ways that look like wire-work, and are truly awe-inspiring. And I think we can pretty much agree that this is no indication of any ability to defend themselves.

So why do we think we can look at a kenpo video and see the person's depth of ability just from observing how fluid is their joint movement or how fast their hands?



ROFL this was probably taken as a compliment.

but seriously, You may be able to "see" what the LTKKF teaches on video, but I know first-hand, 90% of what I have learned about SL-4 principles cannot be seen. Well, you can see it, but unless you are told what it is you either won't notice it, or won't know what you are looking at even if you do notice it. Yes, I thought statements like that were BS until I arranged for Doc to come to my school and do a weekend of seminars and now I know.


I think you mis-read. he was a BB before Tatum was a WHITE belt. Doc had a STUDENT who made black when Tatum made brown...

phd... yawn
What would you say if it turned out that Doc Chapel's PhD was in, say, Cinematography, or Animal husbandry, or Basket Weaving for that matter? Would that change anything? :deadhorse

And some people wonder why you can't get 'seniors' (including Larry) to post regularly and answer questions. Clearly my mere existence must disrupts someones ability to pursue their study path. I know I'm stopping hordes of people from paying their money, and studying with the instructor of their choice. I really need to stop that. Some people have some serious emotional problems and can't be happy unless others give them permission and validation.

I hereby give permission to all who see no value in my teachings, or understandings of the arts, to continue on with the teacher(s) of their choice with no fear of condemnation on my part. You have my permission to pay as much money as you would like, and accept whatever your teacher(s) says as gospel. I do not however give you permission to feel better about what you do by attempting to discredit myself or what I teach. rather than chip a way at my family tree, you should try climbing your own, especially if you're happy with it.

 

[Doc]

Gee Whizz Bode,

You SL4 guys can be so touchy sometimes.

Missed you at the Chapel Family BBQ yesterday.

Without you and Dave I had to talk to Doc the entire day and he doesn't believe half my stories/lies.

I do, however believe everything your lovely wife has to say. What a jewel. Now what drug did you say you used to get her to marry you again?

Really enjoyed your company buddy. Get ready for the Superbowl Party.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

...Clearly my mere existence must disrupts someones ability to pursue their study path. I know I'm stopping hordes of people from paying their money, and studying with the instructor of their choice. I really need to stop that. Some people have some serious emotional problems and can't be happy unless others give them permission and validation.

I hereby give permission to all who see no value in my teachings, or understandings of the arts, to continue on with the teacher(s) of their choice with no fear of condemnation on my part. You have my permission to pay as much money as you would like, and accept whatever your teacher(s) says as gospel.....

Priceless

 

[MJS]

Reading over a few posts online, I came across a few things, which IMHO, bring up some good points. Looking at this post:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=563087&postcount=13

Dave discusses some technical points regarding SL4. I also came across this video clip in the same thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAa7I0r2bOg

Looking at this clip of Doc, I see some differences in the application of this technique. Regardless, it still looks like its pretty effective to me.

I do realize that this is only a clip and the fine points most likely will not be picked up, but again, I think that the basic point is being made.

Mike

 

[Rich_Hale]

I do, however believe everything your lovely wife has to say. What a jewel. Now what drug did you say you used to get her to marry you again?

Really enjoyed your company buddy. Get ready for the Superbowl Party.

I told you Doc, she fell in love with my charming good looks, wit, and personality . . . .

Okay, it was endorphins, Advil and beer.

 

[hongkongfooey]

Doc, I don't mean to offend you, but I see a great deal of difference between what you teach and what Tatum and Clyde teach. That is my only point. Yes, you were a black belt before Tatum. That's great. From what I've seen, you don't move like him. Now, I will be fair by stating that I have never be hit my you. I've got the broken ribs to show what Clyde can do. I've felt the sting of Tatum's blows, as well. I can't say that you are not as skilled, that was never my intention. I will stand by my assertion that your motion and interpretation is very different from what I've been taught and what I've seen in other kenpo seniors (that's not an insult, you just have a different mode of movement).

I will also confess that I was only a 7th grader when Mr. Parker passed, so I cannont say I have seen him move in person. I have seen video clips from demonstrations, however. From watching those clips, the only two seniors who move even close to Mr. Parker are Paul Mills and Larry Tatum. That does not mean other seniors don't move well. It's an issue of explosive motion. As Mr. Conatser stated, many other seniors also hit hard and move well.

I have seen what you do. It looks alot like kenpo mixed with Hapkido. I'm actually a blue belt in kenpo (I have not updated my profile), but I am also a black belt in Hapkido, and much of your material seems to have that flavor. I refuse to judge what you do because I have not seen it in person. As you probably well know, Clyde is my teacher's teacher; we all know how he feels about you. I don't parrot Clyde's opinions, nor do I speak for him.

I also realize that you have people who support your claims. I've heard others who contravene your assertions. I don't really care if you're telling the truth or not because it has no bearing on my training. You can claim to be the Dalai Lama, the son of Jesus Christ, or the emperor of the universe for all I care. However, I do have one question for you: where did you get your PhD. and what discipline did you study? I'm just curious.

So all of this Larry Tatum has the glow, and everyone else sucks BS, has a point afterall.

You guys in O'Briantland, can't disprove what Doc teaches, so you still try to tear the man down by attacking him on a personal level. Doc's college degrees have absolutly nothing to do with this thread. It's been beat to death on this forum. Why not give the a little respect for a change.

 

[MJS]

Doc's college degrees have absolutly nothing to do with this thread.

Thats correct. I didn't start this thread to discuss college degrees, but instead to ask some questions about the variations in the material.

So...back to the original question.

Again, I have only had the chance to work with two of Kenpos Seniors at seminars. I'm hoping that those that have had the chance to experience some of the other Seniors can give some feedback as to any differences that they may have seen.

Mike

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Gee Whizz Bode,

You SL4 guys can be so touchy sometimes.

Missed you at the Chapel Family BBQ yesterday.

Without you and Dave I had to talk to Doc the entire day and he doesn't beleive half my stories/lies.

Well, I missed ya chief. 4th BBQ with the above mentioned company and yar'n would have blown doors on how I actually DID spend my 4th.

Looking forward to the next installment of lies,

Dave

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Thats correct. I didn't start this thread to discuss college degrees, but instead to ask some questions about the variations in the material.

So...back to the original question.

Again, I have only had the chance to work with two of Kenpos Seniors at seminars. I'm hoping that those that have had the chance to experience some of the other Seniors can give some feedback as to any differences that they may have seen.

Mike

Mike...

You've probably heard us yap about alignment and breaking down the other guys structure. In the alternating maces vid, look for some of the following:

1. At the very beginning of the vid, you can see the poor uke dropping rapidly to a light bop to an acupuncture point inside the upper forearm. Notice the effect it has of tipping him forward and to the side...watch it a couple times rigth in a row, and notice what happens to A) his right shoulder first, B) left shoulder 2nd, C) spine in the neck and upper back D) spine where it intersects with the pelvis, E) balance on his feet (weight distribution). I call this being shaken or pulled out of your tree or saddle. Basically, misaligned.

2. Docs left hand comes into view, RELEASING the attackers right wrist...fingers to the inside of the contact points just below the palm. The carpal row is flattened, further setting the stage for misalignment. Doc pauses long enough to let the guy regain his composure a bit...meaning, he doesn't keep thwacking away on the guy while he's fubared like this. Courtesy to demo dummy. In SL4, that misaligned state is EXACTLY when you want to hit 'em.

3. Rather than just launching into the backnuckle as the last move, he inserts a check of sorts under the jaw with his forearm. If you don't like the guy, that's a solid impact that rattles the noggin.

4. On the backfist, watch the rear hand come up, as if a billiards or croquet bunt that sends the backfist forward. Proprieceptive check/index that helps Doc realign prior to bashing the poor lad.

On several occasions Doc has posted that the main diff with SL4 is not the "what", but the "how". The read for alternating maces in a text format would be almost the same as elsewhere...inward hammering block over the top of the attackers arms, followed by punch to bod, (insert rising forearm check-like thingy), backnuckle to beneath ear. What differs is the small stuff that goes on WHILE you're doing the WHAT.

How does the inside downward hammering block strike the attackers arms? Specifically, where? What did that block do on the way to it's final destination in order to recruit maximum muscle engagement (not caught on film is the pre-positioning of the block...rather than point-of-origin to point-of-contact, it comes from behind like a soft ball pitch that starts low and to the side, then comes up near the ear before descending on that pressure point).

Training with Doc is a brain drain...takes a lot to keep up with the occasional data dumps he goes off on, which is why training is methodical, slow, intentional. To engrain the subtle HOW differences into the performance of the physical techniques.

There are several AM vids out there...as a matter of fact, there's a thread running on alternating maces on kenpotalk, and the consensus seems to be that its for teaching stance changes, dimensional zones, etc. That's more of the WHAT. Dissect video of practitioners whenever you can, and look for subtleties of motion in the delivery that inform you about the detail they pay to HOW. This, unfortunately, can be easier said than doen. Like the man said...if you don't know what you're looking for, you may well miss it. I may well miss some neat stuff coming from other models, becaue I'm watching to see if they index or not.

Lotsa cool stuff out there.

Dave

 

[bayonet]

Mods,please lock this thread. Lets see who's better, Van Halen or Steve Vai? No wait Jimi Hendrix ripped too but Jimmy Page may have the edge. Dimebag Darryl could rip but Zakk Wylde is better, NO wait Randy Rhodes was the man. No, I disagree Joe Satriani is the man. Well hold on I think Van Halen has them all beat. Well let's not forget Ynwvie Malmsteen. Redundant. I wish I could play guitar half as good as any of the aforemention. Same with ALL the senior Kenpoist. Give them ALL respect, think about all the YEARS they have invested and are still going..

 

[MJS]

Dave,

Thanks for the great reply!:asian: I'm sure its quite an extremely detailed learning experience training with Doc. I've talked for a long time now, about taking a trip to Ca. When the time comes that I actually do it, I just may have to look you guys up. Seeing is believing and I'm sure it would be worth the view.

Mike

 

[Seig]

rather than chip a way at my family tree, you should try climbing your own, especially if you're happy with it.

Aha! Doc, I have you! Shouldn't that read, "try creating your own"?
MWAHAHAHAHA!:rofl:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Mods,please lock this thread. Lets see who's better, Van Halen or Steve Vai? No wait Jimi Hendrix ripped too but Jimmy Page may have the edge. Dimebag Darryl could rip but Zakk Wylde is better, NO wait Randy Rhodes was the man. No, I disagree Joe Satriani is the man. Well hold on I think Van Halen has them all beat. Well let's not forget Ynwvie Malmsteen. Redundant. I wish I could play guitar half as good as any of the aforemention. Same with ALL the senior Kenpoist. Give them ALL respect, think about all the YEARS they have invested and are still going..

While I'm sure you think your post was insightful, I would like to point out that a couple people in this thread have stated...a couple times...that each of the seniors is good at a particular talent. When people HAVE tried turning this into a pissing contest, others have returned the thread to discussion of differences. There have been some excellent contributions and point-counterpoint dialogues by longstanding members of both kenpo and MT.

Passion is good. Misplaced, it's embarrassing.

Dave

 

[Doc]

Aha! Doc, I have you! Shouldn't that read, "try creating your own"?
MWAHAHAHAHA!:rofl:

Well sir normally I would agree with you, but when a blue belt comes to a forum with those kind of comments, he must be building his own tree.

(OK you got me)