So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

It's always interesting to read what Doc has to say about Mr. Parker and the good old days.

I do remember Dennis being a serious student of Mr. Parkers back then, but as for me I was just there to rummage around in Mr. Parkers basement for old Elvis Presley memorabilia.

And yes, Mr. Parker did suggest that Doc and I be partners, but I thought he meant Ron was going to help me go through the basement and set up the Ebay account.

I really got to start paying closer attention to details!

*cough*"downplay"*cough*

 

[Doc]

Doc, thanks for the well thought out reply. I'd have to say that much of the confusion comes into play during the discussion of a technique. Now, I'm not sure if the differences are your own changes or if your version of a technique is the way that Mr. Parker had originally intended the technique to be. The Raining Claw thread on KT, the video clip of the SL4 version of Delayed Sword would be two apparent differences in the way the material is applied. I personally, have not heard any mention of anyone else doing the things you're doing, so I can see how that would lead one to think that you had some 'secret' teachings.

Thanks again to everyone for all of the great posts! I look forward to continuing this discussion.

Mike

Just so there is no confusion or misunderstandings sir. As far as I know, Mr. Parker never created a definitive technique sequence that he expected everyone to perform in the same manner. Students would constantly bombard him with that question on techniques. He would always answer with the same reply. "Show me how YOU do it." Then he would make suggestions and corrections FOR THEM to be effective. Someone else asking the same question regarding the same technique would get a different answer FOR THEM.

American Kenpo, briefly, was supposed to be that vehicle, but he became overwhelmed by business and never formulated the American Kenpo System with strict technique execution, and concentrated on Kenpo Karate which paid the bills.

Parker was very busy and was on the road alot traveling and selling through tests and seminars. My own lessons ultimately became almost pure principle based, with a variety of Kenpo Karate techniques used only as examples corrected to illustrate what needed to be done to be successful. You can find pieces of the American Kenpo Material in the 2 volume video series, as well as Kenpo Karate Material. (As a side note: You can find me in Volume One specifically doing a segment where Ed Parker asked me to briefly emphasize the "slap-checks.")

So any argument about 'correct Kenpo' is moot. If you're happy with it, then its fine. But don't be upset if you run into someone who has a different understanding who is as, or more, effective than you.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Reguardless of who the final four were, those individuals were only learning at their current(at the time) level.
Sean

 

[hongkongfooey]

Doc,

What changes were made to the system from say 1970 up until the beginning of the early 80's? Was it changed to make it easier to learn? Was the Big Red manual an componet of this change?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Just so there is no confusion or misunderstandings sir. As far as I know, Mr. Parker never created a definitive technique sequence that he expected everyone to perform in the same manner.

Key word here is "definitive". Mr. Parker did create a "standard or base" technique sequence to be used as a point of reference for different purposes at different levels of training. These were the (constantly updated and revised) editions of the Red Book or journals that some refer to.

Students would constantly bombard him with that question on techniques. He would always answer with the same reply. "Show me how YOU do it." Then he would make suggestions and corrections FOR THEM to be effective. Someone else asking the same question regarding the same technique would get a different answer FOR THEM.

This is also correct and at the same time very confusing. He did not want an 'iron clad" technique that people would never realize or train for variables (which are necessary for a variety of reasons) but at the same time he did want standardization of the basic material for a starting point of reference. Sooooo his method then was to demonstrate to different individuals different "POSSIBILITIES" for any given technique (variable expansion). Problem is.... people took what he showed them and encapsulated it just the same. lol :idunno:

American Kenpo, briefly, was supposed to be that vehicle, but he became overwhelmed by business and never formulated the American Kenpo System with strict technique execution, and concentrated on Kenpo Karate which paid the bills.

Well, not entirely true. His most current journals at the time of his passing, were worked over very carefully (not saying they were totally completed) unfortunately he didn't have the opportunity to promote them to the masses as he was going to along with his video series.

So any argument about 'correct Kenpo' is moot. If you're happy with it, then its fine. But don't be upset if you run into someone who has a different understanding who is as, or more, effective than you.

Well, then it's not really moot then. It is important to understand the entire system as layed out and then TRAIN that system vs. just toy with it as most do. This is the main problem. Most think they learn a given technique or several for that matter and they are done....... Wrong go Buckaroo..... they need to be worked and trained for a long time.
Just because you may be "happy" with a movement does not mean that it is viable for you or anyone else..... it must be effective for the person using it.

GD7
:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Doc,
What changes were made to the system from say 1970 up until the beginning of the early 80's? Was it changed to make it easier to learn? Was the Big Red manual an componet of this change?

I'll chime in here for a short....

There were actually very few 'updates' thru the 70's. Most of the dramatic "updates" occured during the 80's. Very little change was made to the 'Core' material, but many description updates and system organization.

:asian:

 

[MJS]

So any argument about 'correct Kenpo' is moot. If you're happy with it, then its fine. But don't be upset if you run into someone who has a different understanding who is as, or more, effective than you.

Yes, you're right, I am happy with my training. Don't worry, I won't lose any sleep over someone being better, as I know those people exist. I think that I've addressed the things that I had a problem with.

Mike

 

[Doc]

Key word here is "definitive". Mr. Parker did create a "standard or base" technique sequence to be used as a point of reference for different purposes at different levels of training. These were the (constantly updated and revised) editions of the Red Book or journals that some refer to.



This is also correct and at the same time very confusing. He did not want an 'iron clad" technique that people would never realize or train for variables (which are necessary for a variety of reasons) but at the same time he did want standardization of the basic material for a starting point of reference. Sooooo his method then was to demonstrate to different individuals different "POSSIBILITIES" for any given technique (variable expansion). Problem is.... people took what he showed them and encapsulated it just the same. lol :idunno:




Well, not entirely true. His most current journals at the time of his passing, were worked over very carefully (not saying they were totally completed) unfortunately he didn't have the opportunity to promote them to the masses as he was going to along with his video series.



Well, then it's not really moot then. It is important to understand the entire system as layed out and then TRAIN that system vs. just toy with it as most do. This is the main problem. Most think they learn a given technique or several for that matter and they are done....... Wrong go Buckaroo..... they need to be worked and trained for a long time.
Just because you may be "happy" with a movement does not mean that it is viable for you or anyone else..... it must be effective for the person using it.

GD7
:asian:

Wrong go Buckaroo ? Oh brutha!

 

[Doc]

I'll chime in here for a short....

There were actually very few 'updates' thru the 70's. Most of the dramatic "updates" occured during the 80's. Very little change was made to the 'Core' material, but many description updates and system organization.

:asian:

The only so-called updates in the seventies, were the addition of some of the 'two,' and 'three' sets and extensions. None of which had any real impact on anything.

 

[Doc]

Reguardless of who the final four were, those individuals were only learning at their current(at the time) level.
Sean

There were no final four, but a bunch of people he was atempting to standardize the business with. But don't make the mistake of thinking that applied to all of his teachings. I was with the man for over 27 years and never used any of those manuals old or new.

 

[JamesB]

The impression I get from reading this (and other) threads is that Kenpo means different things to different people. Depending on when, and from whom one learnt, can define a person's kenpo - be it Chinese Kenpo, Kenpo Karate, etc. Whatever you learnt, whenever you learnt it, it is still kenpo. 16/24/32 techniques, extensions or otherwise. It's your kenpo, it is correct for *you*.

The most valuable thing in the Kenpo system for me, is the open, logical approach to martial-arts which encourages people to question (with an open mind) what they are being taught. That's why I started. The instructor should be teaching the student these lessons - so that they can make informed, honest choices about where they want their training to go next.

If someone has this approach, then I would deem this 'correct' - this is what kenpo is all about. The whole motion/commercial thing is irrelevant in my opinion. So what if you don't have all the answers right away. Everyone starts at white-belt regardless of system/style/school, and as long as the instructor and students are honest about what they are doing then this is all that matters. This is the approach to Martial Arts that I believe Mr Parker wanted people to follow, commercial or otherwise.

For those that bury their heads in the sand - who cannot bring themselves to look inward and analyze what they are doing. Who go away and form cliques which attempt to discredit the work of others. For those that have so much invested in their own rank/ego/status that they fail to give honest answers about what they are doing, to the detriment of their own and their student's development. In this case I question whether what they are doing is American Kenpo any longer...sure it's kenpo, or karate, whatever. But American Kenpo?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

The impression I get from reading this (and other) threads is that Kenpo means different things to different people. Depending on when, and from whom one learnt, can define a person's kenpo - be it Chinese Kenpo, Kenpo Karate, etc. Whatever you learnt, whenever you learnt it, it is still kenpo. 16/24/32 techniques, extensions or otherwise. It's your kenpo, it is correct for *you*.

The most valuable thing in the Kenpo system for me, is the open, logical approach to martial-arts which encourages people to question (with an open mind) what they are being taught. That's why I started. The instructor should be teaching the student these lessons - so that they can make informed, honest choices about where they want their training to go next.

If someone has this approach, then I would deem this 'correct' - this is what kenpo is all about. The whole motion/commercial thing is irrelevant in my opinion. So what if you don't have all the answers right away. Everyone starts at white-belt regardless of system/style/school, and as long as the instructor and students are honest about what they are doing then this is all that matters. This is the approach to Martial Arts that I believe Mr Parker wanted people to follow, commercial or otherwise.

For those that bury their heads in the sand - who cannot bring themselves to look inward and analyze what they are doing. Who go away and form cliques which attempt to discredit the work of others. For those that have so much invested in their own rank/ego/status that they fail to give honest answers about what they are doing, to the detriment of their own and their student's development. In this case I question whether what they are doing is American Kenpo any longer...sure it's kenpo, or karate, whatever. But American Kenpo?

Thinking is discouraged in kenpo; blind obedience to mindless loyalty is what's expected. So stop thinking, and obey.

Oh, wait. That's not the case at all.

I'm just gonna slink away for a bit...

 

[Carol]

Thinking is discouraged in kenpo; blind obedience to mindless loyalty is what's expected. So stop thinking, and obey.

Oh, wait. That's not the case at all.

I'm just gonna slink away for a bit...

*whew*

No THINKING in Kenpo? You were scaring me there for a minute, Dr. Dave

 

[Goldendragon7]

*whew*

No THINKING in Kenpo? You were scaring me there for a minute, Dr. Dave

Hee hee hee...... you know how some of these Dr's are....... they just love to hear themselves type sometimes.

%-}

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Hee hee hee...... you know how some of these Dr's are....... they just love to hear themselves type sometimes.

%-}

I resemble that remark!

 

[Carol]

Hee hee hee...... you know how some of these Dr's are....... they just love to hear themselves type sometimes.

%-}

ROFL! Hey, its pretty cool seeing what some of these doctors type. Dragons too.

 

[Rob Broad]

They were indeed interesting and different times sir. A lot of the guys have some great stories. Some, like Dennis Conatser or Frank Trejo, are great story tellers.

Especially when Frank Trejo tells about how he got into Kenpo. Somewhere there is a girl that we all a great debt to.

 

[MJS]

To suggest that Mr. Parker at some point only taught three or 4 people the ‘good stuff’ before he passed is ludicrous. He was indeed trying to standardize the business aspect of kenpo with many.

Considering that we have only 2 active Kenpo Seniors that post regularly, perhaps Mr. Conatser and Mr. Chapel could expand on this a bit.

I'd be interested to hear how the training that you received from Mr. Parker differed between the two of you, as well as some of the others that were there, such as Mr. Tatum, Mr. Palanzo and Mr. Palanas.

Thanks in advance and I look forward to hearing your replies.

Mike

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Considering that we have only 2 active Kenpo Seniors that post regularly, perhaps Mr. Conatser and Mr. Chapel could expand on this a bit.

I'd be interested to hear how the training that you received from Mr. Parker differed between the two of you, as well as some of the others that were there, such as Mr. Tatum, Mr. Palanzo and Mr. Palanas.

Thanks in advance and I look forward to hearing your replies.

Mike

That would definitely be an interesting discussion.

 

[Doc]

That would definitely be an interesting discussion.

Well not quite. Dennis is a "Senior," with many "Senior moments." I however am an "Ancient" who began study long before what most know as Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate existed. Dennis and I have these discussions over Chinese Food at Won Kok as often as possible, (at least we did before he jumped the broom).

Anyway Dennis studied what most of you understand kenpo to be, and he is well grounded in the 'motion' system, but has studied other concepts and styles as well. Anyway, he learned it from the only expert source and is as well versed in it as anyone, and better than just about everybody. That's why our discussions are so good. He's smart and Ed Parkr designed that material to allow the very intelligent to get deep into its concepts. Unfortunately most are either not smart enough, or unwilling to make the leap. But I'll let Dennis fill in the blanks.