So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?

[KenpoRonin]

As I read the above arguments I see many fallacies in your presentation of information. I don’t know if you are familiar with logic and inductive reasoning in terms of presenting valid arguments but many of the above arguments are in violation of these rules.


Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. Who cares Judas was with Jesus before Paul, but well I think we all know how that bit of history turned out. Now I am not claiming Chapel is a traitor to Parker, just showing the fallacy of that argument.

[Mr. Tatum is highly skilled ... I agree. That is one reason why he was the manager of Mr. Parker's Santa Monica Studio and then the West LA Studio for a few years until they parted company for personal reasons.

However, don't confuse what you say you have personally "SEEN" with what you have not personally "FELT" from other well known Kenpo personalities!

I can tell you that the likes of Steve LaBounty, Tom Kelly, Ralph Castellanos, Mike Pick, Bob Liles, Ron Chape'l and many, many others have much more effective execution to their credit than you may realize. One shouldn't confuse "looks" with application.

We are all proud of our instructors (as it should be), but let this not blind us to others that may be much better, stronger, or more knowledgeable]

I am always sick of people who claim because someone hits hard that makes them GREAT. I have shared the floor with two of the above men and only seen pictures of the rest. These are all big men, men who would hit hard if they studied any style of martial art or just grew up in the streets. The first time I met LaBounty and Kelly I was intimidated and I am 6’ 2”. If I took Mike Tyson and gave him a yellow belt, that wouldn’t make him a great Kenpoist, you would just have a really small sparring class.

[So when did you witness Ed Parker move? Are you basically saying that the guys like Doc, Dennis, Huk, Tom Kelly, Frank Trejo, Bob White, Steve LaBounty, Skip Hancock, Joe Palanzo, Mike Pick, Chuck Sullivan, etc. are teaching crap and only Larry Tatum is teaching something worth learning?

Are you saying Clyde knows more about Kenpo than the seniors mentioned above? I don't recall anyone on here ever saying Clyde didn't know his stuff. Though he has time and time again stated that everyone else knows nothing next to him. Well, except for Larry Tatum of course.]

Now I know that this going to be a touchy subject, but we all know that Parker was constantly revising the system, making it better. Now I know that others will disagree with that. Though if you look at difference in the dynamics of the system through the decades it is rather obvious that the system got better as time went on. Many of the old timers, while they are tough as nails didn’t get all the new material. So I think that it is fair to say that on a case by case basis there are guys while having been around for a while longer may not have all of the system. We also know that Tatum was constantly in contact with Parker getting lessons and material. He was named as one of three air-apparent to the system. So I think that it can be said that Tatum would have more of the system than almost anyone else. Now Clyde has been with Tatum for a very long time and has been one of his top students so it is fair to say that Clyde would also have most of what Tatum has to offer and therefore one of the most knowledgeable people in Kenpo.

[Each senior and kenpo practioner brings something to the table.]

I see this posted all the time, what a bunch of crap. Not everyone has something to offer. My aunt Gene used to bring fruit cakes to Thanksgiving dinner, nobody ate it. So I guess she brought something, but it was nothing good. I guess you could then make the argument that some people who bring crap to the table still bring something so you can compare the really good with the really crappy.

 

[Ray]

...I see many fallacies in your presentation of information. I don’t know if you are familiar with logic and inductive reasoning .....violation of these rules.

Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum..... fallacy of that argument.

I don't see where Mr. Chapel is using his length in the system as evidence of any superior skill -- to me it looks more like historical evidence from a witness...maybe testimony. While the branch of philosophy called "Logic" may have its set of rules, the discovery of truth in other areas may or may not exactly follow that set of rules. For example, the testimony of a witness in a trial who has establishes credibility during questioning adds weight to the argument.

 

[KenpoRonin]

So then why did he bring it up. why did he feel it necessary that he had black belts before Tatum got his brown belt. I can't see any other reason for the comment, so let me know why?

As for your comment on personal experiences, juries often will take the account of eye witnesses over DNA. So go ahead and believe opinions laid out as facts I still look at the hard evidence

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

So then why did he bring it up. why did he feel it necessary that he had black belts before Tatum got his brown belt. I can't see any other reason for the comment, so let me know why?

As for your comment on personal experiences, juries often will take the account of eye witnesses over DNA. So go ahead and believe opinions laid out as facts I still look at the hard evidence

Hard evidence? There is no hard evidence. That's what Chapel was responding to. As a fan of critical thinking, allow me to assist you in following a part of the thread that Doc was rebutting, using the same fallacy inferred by another poster.

Argumentum ad verecundium...appeal to authority. Someone had mentioned that nobody moved like Larry: He infers in this statement that Larry is the sole comparator of excellence in kenpo that others ought to be compared to. An unsupported proposition, in which the hidden presupposition (Larry is the comparator) has not been sufficiently demonstrated.

If the inference had been spelled out in a proposition, than the presuppositions and the proposition itself could be directly challenged. They were not. It may have been written:

(p1) Larry is the authority on correct kenpo movement.
(p2) The others do not move like Larry
conc: Therefore, the others are not engaging in correct kenpo movement.

But the guy didn't do that. So, left to address the underlying, unstated assertion, Doc and others provided information that would compete with the proposition that Larry, alone, is the authority on how kenpo movement ought to be done. The contradictory evidence is the existence itself of non-Larry people who also had exhaustive exposure to -- and training with -- Ed Parker, but who do NOT move the way Larry moves.

I will take this one step further for you:

p1: Larry, although very fast and very good, does not move like Mr. Parker
p2: Only people who move like Mr. Parker are any good.
conc: Therefore, Larry is no good.

Oh, wait...now we're getting into "junk logic" (actually, we've already been there). Logic only dictates that the conclusion follow from the propositions (p1 : p2 --> conclusion). Evidence is weighted not on proper conclusions, but rather on the weight of the propositions themselves. Mr. Chapel, et al, are rebutting through the introduction of contrary propositions.

"This is true, because the Leading Authority (a pope, kenpo senior, whomever) sez it is" is an appeal to authority. The first question must always be...who made them the authority? The Pope is only an authority in the Catholic church, because the Church says so. He is not an authority on a non-Cathoilic judo mat, non-Catholic tune-up garage, or in a non-Catholic knitting circle. Larry is the most knowledgeable senior in kenpo...because his admirers say he is. Outside his sphere of influence, the "verecundium" part may not be concurred with.

I moved with the old man. I would offer that Mr. Tatum does not move as Parker did. He is phenom-fast, and very technical; he was, after all, a protege of Mr. P for many years. He was not, however, the only bright and talented long-time student of Mr. Parker's. He does not move with the same density or thickness Mr. P brought...those who have been on the wrong side of Mr. Parker will know that to which I refer.

Prove to me the truth of the proposition that Larry, alone, represents the best model of motion for kenpo, and we can continue that train of thought. Until then, it's really only opinion, being presented as fact.

And you're right...not everyone brings something to the table. Some guys out there are just idiots, but folks (including Doc) are too busy being PC to just blurt that out. Ironically, if he did, that would likely be the subject of future attacks.

Argumentation and debate; logic and critical thinking; rhetoric...they are not truth. Ideally, they are tools for discovering the truth... an old sophist idea that Plato even gave a nod to by allowing the character of a notable sophist of their time to argue Socrates almost to a draw in his accounting of the trial. But they are not, in fact, truth. What's that thing about looking at the finger pointing to the moon, instead of looking at the moon itself?

Regards,

Dave

 

[hongkongfooey]

Excellent post, Dave!

Dave

 

[Carol]

From the students in Mr. Tatum's lineage, I'm reading about how Mr. Tatum has a signature, explosive style, and that his senior students have been able to learn Mr. Tatum's signature style.

An implied point sis student's outside Mr. Tatum's lineage do not have the same style, and some students outside of Mr. Tatum's style, such as KenpoDoc and Dr. Dave concur.

The style of Mr. Tatum and the establishment of his ability to teach his signature style translates into Mr. Tatum teaching the correct system - is that the point at issue?

Am I following this properly or did I get lost?

 

[Ray]

So then why did he bring it up. why did he feel it necessary that he had black belts before Tatum got his brown belt. I can't see any other reason for the comment, so let me know why?

While I cannot say that I know what was going through Mr. Chapel's mind when he made that post. It looks to me like he was saying that someone who was posting (not Mr. Tatum) didn't know what they were talking about; that Mr. Chapel was an eye witness and was speaking from personal knowledge. I don't see where Mr. Chapel spoke ill of Mr. Tatum in the thread. I think the following is the post that you're speaking to:

I'd like to remind the 'Kenpohack' that I was a black belt when Larry started kenpo. In fact I have a student who made black the day Larry made brown belt. I really don't know who put you up to this but you really don't do yourself or your organization any good following in the wrong footsteps. Think about it please. I've given Larry his share of compliments on the net, and I really don't think he needs you to stir things up for really no reason. As Angela is prone to say, "Back to the mats" and train.

As for your comment on personal experiences, juries often will take the account of eye witnesses over DNA. So go ahead and believe opinions laid out as facts I still look at the hard evidence

Co-incidentally, there is an interesting article on "hard evidence" in this month's scientific american. I cannot speak to what Mr. Chapel learned from Mr. Parker, but I have some books that were printed while Mr. Parker was living--allegedly written by Mr. Parker-- that show photos of Mr. Chapel demonstrating kenpo. I use that as evidence of Mr. Chapel's study of Kenpo with Mr. Parker (at least back to the 1980's). I'm sure I can find further evidence.

Unless the photos were forged and Mr. Parker just picked some guy off the street to make a good demonstration of kenpo for a book (which I'm guessing he wanted to be the best it could be) then that places Mr. Chapel as a kenpoist with Mr. Parker. It is a far more solid piece evidence for me (that Mr. Chapel was a student of Mr. Parker) than would a hair from Mr. Chapel's head found at Mr. Parker's studio, and analyzed for DNA
would be.

DNA evidence can place a person (or a piece of a person) at a particular location. Probably cannot be used to tell what that person was doing at the time.

 

[Brother John]

No offense to the original author of the question...
but I think the line of reasoning leading to the presumption of a "Correct" system.
Historically correct? That depends on what phase of the system you're discussing I suppose. But even that wouldn't come up with ONE system.

Correct according to book 5? I really don't think that it was the objective of the infinite insights books to crystalize what the system was, but to put forth the premises of the art, and show Mr. Parker's ideas that lead to much of it.

There are effective, less effective and more effective systems; and the systems aren't effective at 'fighting' but at preparing people to be ready for fighting.

just a strange line of questioning I think.
But that's just my opinion.

Your Brother
John

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

No offense to the original author of the question...
but I think the line of reasoning leading to the presumption of a "Correct" system.
Historically correct? That depends on what phase of the system you're discussing I suppose. But even that wouldn't come up with ONE system.

Correct according to book 5? I really don't think that it was the objective of the infinite insights books to crystalize what the system was, but to put forth the premises of the art, and show Mr. Parker's ideas that lead to much of it.

There are effective, less effective and more effective systems; and the systems aren't effective at 'fighting' but at preparing people to be ready for fighting.

just a strange line of questioning I think.
But that's just my opinion.

Your Brother
John

I say, old chap. Well said.

D.

 

[MJS]

No offense to the original author of the question...
but I think the line of reasoning leading to the presumption of a "Correct" system.
Historically correct? That depends on what phase of the system you're discussing I suppose. But even that wouldn't come up with ONE system.

Correct according to book 5? I really don't think that it was the objective of the infinite insights books to crystalize what the system was, but to put forth the premises of the art, and show Mr. Parker's ideas that lead to much of it.

There are effective, less effective and more effective systems; and the systems aren't effective at 'fighting' but at preparing people to be ready for fighting.

just a strange line of questioning I think.
But that's just my opinion.

Your Brother
John

John, no offense taken. As I said before, I originally started this thread to gain more of an insight on the various methods of teaching that we have here. You're no stranger to this forum, KT or KN, so I'm sure you've seen more than your share of posts, with people saying, no this is not the way to do that, its this way, and so on. I think that its safe to say that Doc is the only one who is doing Kenpo with that SL4 touch to it. That being said, I was simply curious as to how his teachings with Mr. Parker varied from the others out there.

As for the other issues that are being discussed, such as a degree or who got what belt before who...that has nothing to do with the thread IMHO, and serves as nothing but an attempt to derail it.

Mike

 

[AmericanKenpoChris]

I have never seen Mr. P move with the exception of a few internet clips. I own the entire Tatum library on dvd, as well as the Huk Planas forms dvds. Additionally, I have seen Sasaki and Tabatabai move on video.

I personally have my own favorite as far as dvds go. I can't say how well other seniors move or if they move differently. Some do leaping crane with a hop, others with a step. Maybe the ones that stepped were just large guys, and the step was more practical for them. Maybe the larger guys don't have the flash, but more backup mass.

Metaphorically, I don't know who the best orphan is. Spanky, Alfalfa, and Buckwheat have all grown up. They all were taught by Mrs. Crabtree. But my money is on Darla being the master.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Soooooooo Did Mr. Parker move like Professor K. S. Chow....... ?

Just a question?

:idunno:

 

[hongkongfooey]

Soooooooo Did Mr. Parker move like Professor K. S. Chow....... ?

Just a question?

:idunno:

My guess would be no.

I wonder what Larry Tatum thinks of this kind of stuff?

 

[Doc]

I have never seen Mr. P move with the exception of a few internet clips. I own the entire Tatum library on dvd, as well as the Huk Planas forms dvds. Additionally, I have seen Sasaki and Tabatabai move on video.

I personally have my own favorite as far as dvds go. I can't say how well other seniors move or if they move differently. Some do leaping crane with a hop, others with a step. Maybe the ones that stepped were just large guys, and the step was more practical for them. Maybe the larger guys don't have the flash, but more backup mass.

Metaphorically, I don't know who the best orphan is. Spanky, Alfalfa, and Buckwheat have all grown up. They all were taught by Mrs. Crabtree. But my money is on Darla being the master.

I'm sorry sir , but as charming and cute as Darla was, the answer is still Farina.

 

[KenpoRonin]

To Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Martial Talk
Master Black Belt


I would like to agree with you, because for the most part you said nothing wrong though you got a little verbose. But that being said you still didn't answer the question that I posed and since you are quoting me in your post that makes you guilty of diverting from the subject.

As for the claim that I am using hard evidence to make a case for Tatum being superior to All else I don’t believe I said that. There many great martial artist who specialize in a variety of areas. There are those who focus heavy into sparing and those who do heavy conditioning, forms experts and those who do self defense techniques. There is no one guy who does all these better than the rest. I think it may even be safe to say that Parker himself wasn’t the best in all these fields. That being said Parker was the Grand Master of the system and a true master of the art. Logic would then dictate that there is one guy who might have taken the place of Parker after his death. This person would have more knowledge, more understanding and truer grasp on how to make the system work and pass it on.

 

[green meanie]

Parker was the Grand Master of the system and a true master of the art. Logic would then dictate that there is one guy who might have taken the place of Parker after his death. This person would have more knowledge, more understanding and truer grasp on how to make the system work and pass it on.

I'm not sure if I agree with your logic but just out of curiosity, who are you suggesting that person might be?

 

[Brother John]

John, no offense taken. As I said before, I originally started this thread to gain more of an insight on the various methods of teaching that we have here. You're no stranger to this forum, KT or KN, so I'm sure you've seen more than your share of posts, with people saying, no this is not the way to do that, its this way, and so on. I think that its safe to say that Doc is the only one who is doing Kenpo with that SL4 touch to it. That being said, I was simply curious as to how his teachings with Mr. Parker varied from the others out there.

As for the other issues that are being discussed, such as a degree or who got what belt before who...that has nothing to do with the thread IMHO, and serves as nothing but an attempt to derail it.

Mike

I'm sorry Mike, I didn't mean to make you feel that you needed to justify your reasoning for me.
In retrospect, maybe it's not your original post here that I don't agree with, but the ideology (of others) that made you ask it in the first place. I don't understand the "Traditionalism" approach either, and would question to find out WHY it exists as well.

Here's what I think; take it or leave it:
I don't think there is a "Correct" system, because I don't think it was all about the 'system' in the first place... at least not the information that was given out in mass as "American Kenpo Karate".

I think that this system was a means of expressing a concept, that it was conceptually based. It seems to me that Mr. Parker was actually, often, INSPIRED by his students unique talents and outlooks....and therefore his lessons would be shaped to their abilities or potential. (that's what a good instructor does) Therefore his "paradigm" would shift to be appropriate for each student. As the 'system' was conceptually different, when you shift the paradigm....the system comes out differently each time.

Perhaps those who stick to the way the 'system' was at the point of Mr. Parker's death do so out of a sense of nostalgia or a desire to not 'lose' any of the worth that Mr. Parker had embedded in the system. God Bless'm, I can understand their motivation! Mr. Parker inspired devotion, though he seldom was shown it so much. But I think the best instructors we have hold tighter as Stewards of Mr. Parker's vision of the system.....not to it's matrices or superstructure....but to the reasoning and ideology that was it's genesis in the first place. In this way I think that the system should serve the vision, not BE the vision.

Mr. Tatum learned his lessons from Mr. Parker and stays true to the knowledge given him in HIS way.

Mr. Mills learned his lessons from Mr. Parker and stays true to the vision given him as well, in HIS way.

Mr. Chapel learned his lessons from Mr. Parker and stays true to the understanding that he gained from Mr. Parker and continues on in His Own way.

I single these three gentlemen out because they are two (in MY book) of the more active 1st generation students in the public eye....yet their "Systems" are different.....markedly different....
YET they are each FINE "Stewards" of the paradigm given by their teacher, mentor and friend....and they each carry their torch well.
They are EACH "Correct" in that they hold true to the "Way" that was shown them, which was driven by Mr. Parker's "Idea" of Kenpo...he
lit their fire, and they each keep it burning bright.

Something to Think about. (after all, seems to me that THAT was what Mr. Parker tried to make people DO the most, not just the physical actions of Kenpo, but to THINK....critically and deeply.....for Themselves. In this way, we can each be as "Correct" as we can be. And we've got Great Seniors to point the way. ....and that transcends "System" by leaps and bounds.)

Your Brother
John

 

[Monadnock]

Good points John. This is not something unique to Parker Kenpo either. For example, there are many versions of Aikido people can choose from too. If you find a teacher who is teaching what works for you, then I say do it.

Most systems and arts are several generations passed the founder's time, and few preserve exactly what was taught, save for some koryu arts...maybe. I can understand wanting to hang on to what was taught in the early days, because it may have been closer or right from the head of the style, so that's where these types of questions kind of originate.

The best thing to do is find a line of knowledge that has ties to the roots, and a teacher who can at least explain what was different and why, in case that's not how they are teaching it now. Parker Kenpo is fortunate in that there are many first generation students still around, if that is the art you are into.

 

[hongkongfooey]

I'm not sure if I agree with your logic but just out of curiosity, who are you suggesting that person might be?

Yeah. I'm a bit curious too.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

To Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Martial Talk
Master Black Belt


I would like to agree with you, because for the most part you said nothing wrong though you got a little verbose. But that being said you still didn't answer the question that I posed and since you are quoting me in your post that makes you guilty of diverting from the subject.

As for the claim that I am using hard evidence to make a case for Tatum being superior to All else I don’t believe I said that. There many great martial artist who specialize in a variety of areas. There are those who focus heavy into sparing and those who do heavy conditioning, forms experts and those who do self defense techniques. There is no one guy who does all these better than the rest. I think it may even be safe to say that Parker himself wasn’t the best in all these fields. That being said Parker was the Grand Master of the system and a true master of the art. Logic would then dictate that there is one guy who might have taken the place of Parker after his death. This person would have more knowledge, more understanding and truer grasp on how to make the system work and pass it on.

How...HOW does logic dictate this? 42.7% of statistics are made up on the spot. I'm thinking this kind of non-sequiter conclusion comes from the same place.

Dave