So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?

[Goldendragon7]

Well not quite. Dennis is a "Senior," with many "Senior moments." I however am an "Ancient" who began study long before what most know as Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate existed. Dennis and I have these discussions over Chinese Food at Won Kok as often as possible, (at least we did before he jumped the broom).

I'll let Dennis fill in the blanks.

Hey....... I don't have any Senior moments...... at least yet!! A couple of operations here and there..... (on coming up this Friday to shave a bit of my collar bone) but hey..... no biggie!

My training with Ed Parker possibly differed from Doc's a bit primarily due to the fact that I had an active studio open and it was necessary to examine ALL areas of the Art since I was teaching it 10 hours a day.

Private students that were learning for their own personal development could have been quite different due to the way Ed Parker taught. He was so skilled to build the student to what the student 'could' do and was 'interested' in learning. Thus, he didn't always teach the same to everyone.

I personally was interested in learning all aspects of the art so that I could pass on this to my students (even tho many didn't deserve it as is the case with most studios). I desired my students to be versed in all aspects of the Art, History, Basics, Standardized Syllabus, Respect, Competition, Sparring, Forms, Weapon knowledge and of course Self defense. This is a huge task to pass on to the masses since I didn't only teach specific areas to specific students. I have been branded at times "hard core", "difficult", and yes even "anal" about the material and standards I expect. That's me.

Since I was already a Black Belt and had a lengthy tournament history already behind me.. we didn't work on this much unless I asked a specific question.

On my first private lesson, he asked me what I wanted to go over... I said well, since I have a studio I would like to start with the Yellow Belt and progress upward from there. Starting with all the stances, blocks, punches... etc. He rolled his eyes and said "oh come on, you know all that material"! I said, yes I probably have some understanding of it but I would like you to see exactly what I am doing and I want to be sure that it is exactly what you want. I'm sure some will be fine but I'm also sure you could add great dimensions to what I have already acquired and I am interested in all you have to say....... he said ok..... and away we went.

 

[Doc]

Hey....... I don't have any Senior moments...... at least yet!!

Thanks for proving me point. You left out the word "not."

I have been branded at times "hard core", "difficult", and yes even "anal" about the material and standards I expect. That's me.

I don't know if you know it, but the Old Man used to call you "Dennis The Pack Rat." He said you, ".. would swoop into town, get as much information as you can, go back home to stash and work on it, then come back for more.
Did I ever tell you that?

 

[kenpohack]

I know I'll take flak for this remark, but no one moves like Larry Tatum. I've seen almost every luminary in the kenpo community move, and no comes close to matching Tatum's speed, fluidity, grace, and explosive power. I mean no disrespect to any other master, but no one else comes close to matching Parker's mode of movement. Paul Mills comes close; however, Mills is no longer teaching the system laid out in Infinite Insights 5.

For all of Doc's denunciations of motion kenpo, even he does not move like Mr. Tatum. Tatum teaches the system laid out in Infinite Insights. That would appear to be what Mr. Parker wanted to be taught. Maybe Mr. Parker taught Mr. Chapel something different. Many dispute this claim. I refuse to take sides on an issue whose only supporting evidence involves the claims of interested parties. However, the proof is in the motion, and no one moves like Mr. Tatum. Furthermore, the proof is in one's lineage. Look at the like's of Rick Jeffcoat, Daryl Liner, Juan Serrano, and Clyde Obriant. All move with the same signature. I have found few instructors of other camps that can match the aforementioned individuals' knowledge and skill. Having shared the mats with Clyde on several occasions, I would challenge anyone to slap leather with him and make the claim that he does not know what he's talking about.

 

[Doc]

I know I'll take flak for this remark, but no one moves like Larry Tatum.I've seen almost every luminary in the kenpo community move, and no comes close to matching Tatum's speed, fluidity, grace, and explosive power.

Seen where?

I mean no disrespect to any other master, but no one else comes close to matching Parker's mode of movement. Paul Mills comes close; however, Mills is no longer teaching the system laid out in Infinite Insights 5.

Actually there is no system laid out in Infinite Insights, however there are some structural advisories and a list of techniques and forms that can be interpreted by any instructor as he sees fit.

For all of Doc's denunciations of motion kenpo, even he does not move like Mr. Tatum.

Thank you for the compliment, but for the record sir, I have never denounced motion kenpo. I have always stated the quality of that kenpo has always been predicated on the knowledge level and willingness of its instructors to teach it.

Tatum teaches the system laid out in Infinite Insights.

As far as you understand it sir.

That would appear to be what Mr. Parker wanted to be taught.

And you say that because of what?

Maybe Mr. Parker taught Mr. Chapel something different. Many dispute this claim. I refuse to take sides on an issue whose only supporting evidence involves the claims of interested parties.

It would seem you already have. Have you gone through All the 'supporting evidence?" After all there are a couple people around who were there who might disagree with you.

However, the proof is in the motion, and no one moves like Mr. Tatum. Furthermore, the proof is in one's lineage. Look at the like's of Rick Jeffcoat, Daryl Liner, Juan Serrano, and Clyde Obriant. All move with the same signature. I have found few instructors of other camps that can match the aforementioned individuals' knowledge and skill. Having shared the mats with Clyde on several occasions, I would challenge anyone to slap leather with him and make the claim that he does not know what he's talking about.

I'm curious as to how this came to be a Ron Chapél versus Tatum camp, although I do have an idea. Especially since you site your sharing the mat with Clyde as your barometer as to who is good at what they do, and of course not allowing for anyone outside of the Tatum Lineage to at least be respectable. Trolling by proxie perhaps? At any rate you are entitled to your opinon sir, however I take it as it is from the LTKKF Orange Belt source your profile indicates.

My only questions is, when did you stand in front of Mr. Parker with the ability and knowledge to evaluate what he was doing relative to someone else? For the record, my questions are rhetorical in as much I do not anticpate rationality to suddenly appear from those who run such errands in between working on purple material.

At least you have the Hawaiian back handed non compliment down. As the Old Man told me if you lead any statement with, "No disrespect," or end any statement with, "I don't mean that in a bad way," you can pretty much say anything.

I know you're entitled to your own opinion and no disrespect, but I think you're way out of your league, and I was a Parker black belt before you were born, but I don't mean that in a bad way.

 

[Bode]

Damn, Doc beat me to the response. I had it all planned out. You stole my witty reply!

 

[Doc]

Damn, Doc beat me to the response. I had it all planned out. You stole my witty reply!

Normally I wouldn't but, he was so obvious standing there with his hands down, I just had to hit him.

 

[Goldendragon7]

I've seen almost every luminary in the kenpo community move, and no comes close to matching Tatum's speed, fluidity, grace, and explosive power. The proof is in the motion, and one's lineage. I have found few instructors of other camps that can match the aforementioned individuals' knowledge and skill.

Mr. Tatum is highly skilled ... I agree. That is one reason why he was the manager of Mr. Parker's Santa Monica Studio and then the West LA Studio for a few years until they parted company for personal reasons.

However, don't confuse what you say you have personally "SEEN" with what you have not personally "FELT" from other well known Kenpo personalities!

I can tell you that the likes of Steve LaBounty, Tom Kelly, Ralph Castellanos, Mike Pick, Bob Liles, Ron Chape'l and many, many others have much more effective execution to their credit than you may realize. One shouldn't confuse "looks" with application.

We are all proud of our instructors (as it should be), but let this not blind us to others that may be much better, stronger, or more knowledgeable.

Remember........... You don't know.. what you don't know!

:asian:

 

[hongkongfooey]

I know I'll take flak for this remark, but no one moves like Larry Tatum. I've seen almost every luminary in the kenpo community move, and no comes close to matching Tatum's speed, fluidity, grace, and explosive power. I mean no disrespect to any other master, but no one else comes close to matching Parker's mode of movement. Paul Mills comes close; however, Mills is no longer teaching the system laid out in Infinite Insights 5.

For all of Doc's denunciations of motion kenpo, even he does not move like Mr. Tatum. Tatum teaches the system laid out in Infinite Insights. That would appear to be what Mr. Parker wanted to be taught. Maybe Mr. Parker taught Mr. Chapel something different. Many dispute this claim. I refuse to take sides on an issue whose only supporting evidence involves the claims of interested parties. However, the proof is in the motion, and no one moves like Mr. Tatum. Furthermore, the proof is in one's lineage. Look at the like's of Rick Jeffcoat, Daryl Liner, Juan Serrano, and Clyde Obriant. All move with the same signature. I have found few instructors of other camps that can match the aforementioned individuals' knowledge and skill. Having shared the mats with Clyde on several occasions, I would challenge anyone to slap leather with him and make the claim that he does not know what he's talking about.

So when did you witness Ed Parker move? Are you basically saying that the guys like Doc, Dennis, Huk, Tom Kelly, Frank Trejo, Bob White, Steve LaBounty, Skip Hancock, Joe Palanzo, Mike Pick, Chuck Sullivan, etc. are teaching crap and only Larry Tatum is teaching something worth learning?

Are you saying Clyde knows more about Kenpo than the seniors mentioned above? I don't recall anyone on here ever saying Clyde didn't know his stuff. Though he has time and time again stated that everyone else knows nothing next to him. Well, except for Larry Tatum of course.

 

[MJS]

Mr. Conatser,

Thanks for the detailed post above to my question. If you don't mind me asking, what was the progression in the lessons from that point? I'm assuming Mr. Parker at some point, geared the lessons towards his students individual needs? I say this because it seems like Docs training was focused on different methods of executing techniques, etc. compared to others. Doc, can you chime in on that?

Mike

 

[Goldendragon7]

Mr. Conatser,
Thanks for the detailed post above to my question. If you don't mind me asking, what was the progression in the lessons from that point? I'm assuming Mr. Parker at some point, geared the lessons towards his students individual needs?
Mike

1) You are certainly welcome. 2) I don't mind you asking.

3) The progression in the lessons after that was simply going thru the belt charts basics, freestyle techniques, self defense techniques, forms & sets as well as him sharing the pledges, sayings, terminology, principles, concepts and main ingredients to the system (which I refer to as the Kenpo Architecture). Throughout this journey we obviously discussed and studied various methods of execution as well.......

:asian:

 

[Doc]

Mr. Tatum is highly skilled ... I agree. That is one reason why he was the manager of Mr. Parker's Santa Monica Studio and then the West LA Studio for a few years until they parted company for personal reasons.

However, don't confuse what you say you have personally "SEEN" with what you have not personally "FELT" from other well known Kenpo personalities!

I can tell you that the likes of Steve LaBounty, Tom Kelly, Ralph Castellanos, Mike Pick, Bob Liles, Ron Chape'l and many, many others have much more effective execution to their credit than you may realize. One shouldn't confuse "looks" with application.

We are all proud of our instructors (as it should be), but let this not blind us to others that may be much better, stronger, or more knowledgeable.

Remember........... You don't know.. what you don't know!

:asian:

I'd like to remind the 'Kenpohack' that I was a black belt when Larry started kenpo. In fact I have a student who made black the day Larry made brown belt. I really don't know who put you up to this but you really don't do yourself or your organization any good following in the wrong footsteps. Think about it please. I've given Larry his share of compliments on the net, and I really don't think he needs you to stir things up for really no reason. As Angela is prone to say, "Back to the mats" and train.

 

[kenpohack]

Doc, I don't mean to offend you, but I see a great deal of difference between what you teach and what Tatum and Clyde teach. That is my only point. Yes, you were a black belt before Tatum. That's great. From what I've seen, you don't move like him. Now, I will be fair by stating that I have never be hit my you. I've got the broken ribs to show what Clyde can do. I've felt the sting of Tatum's blows, as well. I can't say that you are not as skilled, that was never my intention. I will stand by my assertion that your motion and interpretation is very different from what I've been taught and what I've seen in other kenpo seniors (that's not an insult, you just have a different mode of movement).

I will also confess that I was only a 7th grader when Mr. Parker passed, so I cannont say I have seen him move in person. I have seen video clips from demonstrations, however. From watching those clips, the only two seniors who move even close to Mr. Parker are Paul Mills and Larry Tatum. That does not mean other seniors don't move well. It's an issue of explosive motion. As Mr. Conatser stated, many other seniors also hit hard and move well.

I have seen what you do. It looks alot like kenpo mixed with Hapkido. I'm actually a blue belt in kenpo (I have not updated my profile), but I am also a black belt in Hapkido, and much of your material seems to have that flavor. I refuse to judge what you do because I have not seen it in person. As you probably well know, Clyde is my teacher's teacher; we all know how he feels about you. I don't parrot Clyde's opinions, nor do I speak for him.

I also realize that you have people who support your claims. I've heard others who contravene your assertions. I don't really care if you're telling the truth or not because it has no bearing on my training. You can claim to be the Dalai Lama, the son of Jesus Christ, or the emperor of the universe for all I care. However, I do have one question for you: where did you get your PhD. and what discipline did you study? I'm just curious.

 

[HKphooey]

Each senior and kenpo practioner brings something to the table. I pay no loyalty to one man except myself, the God above (so I guess that is 2 . As i said earlier in a post, my loyalty is to learning. Each group, camp, org., senior, brings something of value to our teaching. And as long as we stay open minded (think goes for teachers letting their students check out material outside their teachings). I have picked up some great things from all the greats. I knew of MR. Chapel before joining this forum, but never really got too deep into SL4 material. I now look at that side of a technique too (granted I think I was always looking at my solid basics and fundamentals). I have learned some great materail form some great people over the years and I hope to continue to do so until I can no longer practice the amrtial arts.

Thanks for the great info on MT!

 

[MJS]

Doc, I don't mean to offend you, but I see a great deal of difference between what you teach and what Tatum and Clyde teach. That is my only point. Yes, you were a black belt before Tatum. That's great. From what I've seen, you don't move like him. Now, I will be fair by stating that I have never be hit my you. I've got the broken ribs to show what Clyde can do. I've felt the sting of Tatum's blows, as well. I can't say that you are not as skilled, that was never my intention. I will stand by my assertion that your motion and interpretation is very different from what I've been taught and what I've seen in other kenpo seniors (that's not an insult, you just have a different mode of movement).

Yes, this was one of the reasons I started this thread. Everyone has their own 'way' of moving, but when I saw some moving different, but still the same, so to speak, and some that were moving unlike the others, I was curious as to the differences in the teachings.

I look forward to the continuing discussion.

Mike

 

[MJS]

1) You are certainly welcome. 2) I don't mind you asking.

3) The progression in the lessons after that was simply going thru the belt charts basics, freestyle techniques, self defense techniques, forms & sets as well as him sharing the pledges, sayings, terminology, principles, concepts and main ingredients to the system (which I refer to as the Kenpo Architecture). Throughout this journey we obviously discussed and studied various methods of execution as well.......

:asian:

Thanks again.

So, looking at the techniques, how would you say that the movement, applications, etc. differ from one person to the next? I'm just curious, because as I stated earlier, it seems to me that there are some obvious differences between say you, Tatum and Chapel.

Thanks again and I look forward to your reply.

Mike

 

[Goldendragon7]

{1} So, looking at the techniques, how would you say that the movement, applications, etc. differ from one person to the next?

It seems to me that there are some obvious differences between say you, Tatum and Chapel.

{1} Our (Kenpo) techniques, are just "drills or exercises" designed to accomplish some [or many] goals. Depending upon the knowledge, training and expertise exercised, will in many cases determine what they achieve. Some never fully develop the "physical" aspects of human movement {known as 'basics' to some, others more technically as kinesiology} which is mandatory to achieve maximum application (if interpreted correctly). Thus, one mans knowledge and training differs greatly from another.

{2} Thank God there are differences.......LOL I would not want to be them! (hee hee)

In all seriousness now... As I stated in {1}, we are each our own individuals which were forged by our own individual journeys. Of course there are some differences, we all have different body types yet we all move very similar as well. I can always tell an Ed Parker (American Kenpo) trained person by the "mode of movement" that is displayed, as well as I can predict pretty close how long he has trained and in some cases even who he trained with by certain signature actions.

We all try to imitate our Founder as close as possible. However, we are [and never will be] not him. In basketball, many try to imitate Michael Jorden, Magic Johnson, Dr. J and many other greats that played the game. Many get close but few ever "totally" look like them. Same here in Kenpo, We all try to move and look close to the founder {I personally have spent hours studying him to imitate 'hand positions' 'mannerisms and even try to talk like him at times} but each have our own personal differences and always will.

If you look at a family that have several children...... many of the offspring have traits and resemblances (some may even look like a carbon copy of mom or dad) of one or both parents, yet other brothers or sisters do not even look like they came from the same parents at all. {get my point}

Most of all what I have tried to accomplish is to be as effective as he was, no matter what or how close I resembled him but rather focus on the end result of what he taught.

:asian:

 

[Kenpodoc]

I Look at the like's of Rick Jeffcoat, Daryl Liner, Juan Serrano, and Clyde Obriant. All move with the same signature. I have found few instructors of other camps that can match the aforementioned individuals' knowledge and skill. Having shared the mats with Clyde on several occasions, I would challenge anyone to slap leather with him and make the claim that he does not know what he's talking about.

The only one of Doc's students I've worked with is Tommy Chavies. i'd match him with any of the above. Huk Planas doesn't look like Tatum when he moves, it's simpler less flashy and remarkably effective. When he demos on me He is instantly in control, puts me where he wants me and confuses my nervous system. It is a remarkable experience because he is not using pain compliance and does not look like he is moving fast and yet he is in control. Huk's students are remarkably effective martial artists who know how and why they move like they do. Lee Wedlake and his students have solid basics, effective motion and are well worth working with. Mr. Labounty and his students move well and effectively, i'd work with any of them given the oportunity. Nothing against Mr. Tatum's students except that they always talk as if there is only one way to do Mr. Parker's Kenpo and that everyone else doesn't know the one true way. i'd be willing to slap leather with Mr. O'briant given the opportunity but I'm sure he'd whup me. On the otherhand Mr. Chavies or Martin Wheeler would likely see him as a light snack and be ready for more. Nothing against Clyde I respect his willingness to put himself on the line, but he's not the only one who has ever done that.

Jeff

 

[Kenpodoc]

For all of Doc's denunciations of motion kenpo, even he does not move like Mr. Tatum.

Doc does not denounce "motion Kenpo/commercial Kenpo", he does say that it is only as good as the instructor/Student. He offers a more labor intensive version of Kenpo with less initial room for freedom of expression. Everytime I try one of Doc's experiments, I become more of a believer. It's not different than what I've been taught but has refinements that help me be more effective. If I didn't have family and other responsibilities he'd have to get me arrested as a stalker. Mr. Tatum is very good but somehow his followers frequently take any suggestion that others have good information to offer as a slam on Mr. Tatum. Personally i don't move like Mr. Tatum and don't think that I can physiologically, he is a very gifted Martial artist. I move slow and ugly. My instructor Mr. Hatfield and his instructor Mr. Wedlake move fluidly and well but with less flash than Mr. Tatum. They have still been able to make me far more effective than I ever dreamed possible.

Question, I have heard Mr. Wedlake and read Dr. Chapel both speak of possible body alignment disruption with poorly timed or placed slap checks. I have never heard Mr. Tatum or his students speak of this. Is this a difference in philosophy or is there agreement on this concern?

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[ammonihah99]

Sorry to jump in here, but I have to comment.

Doc, I don't mean to offend you, but I see a great deal of difference between what you teach and what Tatum and Clyde teach.

Everybody's got differences—learn from them, don't evaluate them simply by their existence.

Yes, you were a black belt before Tatum. That's great. From what I've seen, you don't move like him.

Why does it matter how somebody moves in relation to how someone else moves? In its most base form, all movements are judged on a scale of effectiveness in direct relation to their objective. Disagree?

Now, I will be fair by stating that I have never be hit my you.

Then take my word for it—it hurts. I'm sure a lot of other members of this forum could attest to that fact. But then again a baseball bat hurts too. Is pain the most effective measurement martial artists can use for judging movements?

I've got the broken ribs to show what Clyde can do.

I admit my ignorance as to who Clyde is, but broken ribs inherently do not define a movement's effectiveness. I've seen broken ribs for lack of control, so unless Clyde's objective was expressly to break your ribs, I fail to see the point.

I will also confess that I was only a 7th grader when Mr. Parker passed, so I cannont say I have seen him move in person. I have seen video clips from demonstrations, however. From watching those clips, the only two seniors who move even close to Mr. Parker are Paul Mills and Larry Tatum. That does not mean other seniors don't move well. It's an issue of explosive motion. As Mr. Conatser stated, many other seniors also hit hard and move well.

Again I fail to see the importance of comparing movements. As I understand it, Mr. Parker wanted everyone to study Kenpo in their own way, to make it their own, to constantly improve on what they have been taught. Because minds vary and bodies vary, movements will vary. I suppose he understood and welcomed that fact.

I'm actually a blue belt in kenpo (I have not updated my profile)

I would counsel you to stick around for another 10 years and see how your opinion varies then.

I refuse to judge what you do because I have not seen it in person.

I think you've already done a good job with that.

I don't really care if you're telling the truth or not because it has no bearing on my training.

You should care. Truth is universal, if he has truth to share, and if you are a seeker of truth, you will greatly value what he has to say.

However, I do have one question for you: where did you get your PhD. and what discipline did you study? I'm just curious.

Bro, for being a relatively low rank and claiming to not judge anyone, you sure have ruffled some feathers. I suggest not making it a habit.

Ammon

 

[kevin kilroe]

If kenpohack had his ribs broken as an orange or blue belt by his instructor, what is that saying? A lack of control or a sadistic streak? Anyone with a minimum amount of training can break ribs. It's demonstrating speed and power with control that, in my opinion, makes for an effective instructor. I am reminded of Joe Piscopo in the " Karate Kid" movie for some strange reason.

Kevin Kilroe