So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?
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pete
Master Black Belt
the art of Baguazhang was founded in the mid 1800's in Beijing by the imperial palance eunoch Dong Hai Chuan. He was already an accompished martial artist and reknowned fighter when he happened across a Taoist monk who taught him the circle walking which is a now trademark of the art, but at that point was a shamanistic ritual for internal alchemy. Dong developed it for fighting and for 10 years taught one student, Yin Fu.
Yin was also employed by the imperial palace, although not a eunuch, and was sent to the northern regions with Dong to collect taxes. Yin was already skilled in the Lohan arts. When people didn't want to readily part with their money Dong and Yin took it by force.
After returning to the palace, Yin began teaching other guards the art taught to him by Dong. Unfortunately, Yin and Dong had a falling out, and Dong figured the best recourse was to Stop teaching Yin and begin teaching anybody elso who would listen. Yin no longer had the distinction of being the only 'disciple', even though he was the first.
Of all Dong's newer students, came Cheng Ting Hua. Cheng was the Shuai Jiao champion and already was well known in martial circles. Cheng wnet on to teach Baguazhang publicly to many students at the same time Yin Fu taught.
Because of there different body types, backgrounds, and skills Dong Hai Chuan taught them differently. Yin's style has more emphasis on striking while Cheng's has more focus on throwing.
Today, there is Cheng Style Bagua and Yin Style Bagua, amoung other styles from other students over the years, such as Sun Lu Tang, a student of Cheng.
I dont think these guys named the style after themselves at the time, but 150 some-odd years later their lineages used the founders names to differentiate.
They are all correct, and all trace back to Dong Hai Chuan's art as he taught it to them...
Maybe what American Kenpo needs is a little more time and generations for Tatum-style, Chapel-style, Palanzo-style, Mills-style, etc to be acceptable, and correct in the line of Ed Parker's art.
or, maybe not... ??
pete
Yin was also employed by the imperial palace, although not a eunuch, and was sent to the northern regions with Dong to collect taxes. Yin was already skilled in the Lohan arts. When people didn't want to readily part with their money Dong and Yin took it by force.
After returning to the palace, Yin began teaching other guards the art taught to him by Dong. Unfortunately, Yin and Dong had a falling out, and Dong figured the best recourse was to Stop teaching Yin and begin teaching anybody elso who would listen. Yin no longer had the distinction of being the only 'disciple', even though he was the first.
Of all Dong's newer students, came Cheng Ting Hua. Cheng was the Shuai Jiao champion and already was well known in martial circles. Cheng wnet on to teach Baguazhang publicly to many students at the same time Yin Fu taught.
Because of there different body types, backgrounds, and skills Dong Hai Chuan taught them differently. Yin's style has more emphasis on striking while Cheng's has more focus on throwing.
Today, there is Cheng Style Bagua and Yin Style Bagua, amoung other styles from other students over the years, such as Sun Lu Tang, a student of Cheng.
I dont think these guys named the style after themselves at the time, but 150 some-odd years later their lineages used the founders names to differentiate.
They are all correct, and all trace back to Dong Hai Chuan's art as he taught it to them...
Maybe what American Kenpo needs is a little more time and generations for Tatum-style, Chapel-style, Palanzo-style, Mills-style, etc to be acceptable, and correct in the line of Ed Parker's art.
or, maybe not... ??
pete
Doc
Senior Master
The answer to the question, "So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?" is .....
YOUR teacher, until YOU find a better one.
Now that we got that out of the way, I suggest we move on to something productive like ....... say, What's the best team in the NFL going into training camp? Me? I'm a die-hard Raider Fan, trying to outlive Al Davis.
YOUR teacher, until YOU find a better one.
Now that we got that out of the way, I suggest we move on to something productive like ....... say, What's the best team in the NFL going into training camp? Me? I'm a die-hard Raider Fan, trying to outlive Al Davis.
Brother John said:
No problem John.
I think we're more on the same page than a different one. IMHO, I think that everyone has their own unique thing that they did with the art. A good example of this would be Mr. Mills. He's made some changes, and certainly ones that people think should not have been made. Regardless, what he does is working for him and his students. Going on the analogy that you used above, it seems to me that there really is no one correct way, but instead, many different ways.
Mike
To set the record straight, I did not say that Tatum is the standard of comparison for good kenpo. I believe that is Ed Parker. Tatum does teach the last upgrade or version of the system that was made public by Mr. Parker. Furthermore, Tatum moves with the speed and explosive power of Mr. Parker. Mr. Parker even said so in an early 80's issue of Black Belt Magazine.
That being said, Tatum does not move like Parker, in an exact sense. Ed Parker was well over 250 lbs. At times, I've heard it speculated that he could have been as heavy as 280. He was a big man. Tatum is only 180 lbs. soaking wet. There is just no way he can generate the power of Parker, since they have comparable speed, with such disparity in back-up mass. As a matter of physics, it is impossible. Tatum would either have to be bigger than Parker or much faster to generate sufficent force to overcome Parker's larger frame. However, my point was, and is , that no one exhibits the same speed and fluidity of motion. I never spoke to effectiveness. Tatum moves very impressively. He is also very effective. I have shared the mats with him and felt his strikes. However, others may be just as effective but lack the flash and flare. It's interesting that no else, save maybe Paul Mills, has developed the same signature explosion. Truthfully, while Mr. Mills hits hard, he still doesn't have the grace and fluidity of Mr. Tatum. That was my point.
Mike Tyson didn't move the the grace and class of Muhammed Ali, but he still hit hard. He was, at one time, still a great fighter. This thread asked for an opinion. When an opinion was given, it ruffled some feathers. To those who were upset, you're entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. Yes, I am of low rank, but I don't give a damn. If you don't like my opinion, prove me wrong. If you do, no hard feelings. If you get offended, Walgreens sells Vagisil for those sensitive moments.
That being said, Tatum does not move like Parker, in an exact sense. Ed Parker was well over 250 lbs. At times, I've heard it speculated that he could have been as heavy as 280. He was a big man. Tatum is only 180 lbs. soaking wet. There is just no way he can generate the power of Parker, since they have comparable speed, with such disparity in back-up mass. As a matter of physics, it is impossible. Tatum would either have to be bigger than Parker or much faster to generate sufficent force to overcome Parker's larger frame. However, my point was, and is , that no one exhibits the same speed and fluidity of motion. I never spoke to effectiveness. Tatum moves very impressively. He is also very effective. I have shared the mats with him and felt his strikes. However, others may be just as effective but lack the flash and flare. It's interesting that no else, save maybe Paul Mills, has developed the same signature explosion. Truthfully, while Mr. Mills hits hard, he still doesn't have the grace and fluidity of Mr. Tatum. That was my point.
Mike Tyson didn't move the the grace and class of Muhammed Ali, but he still hit hard. He was, at one time, still a great fighter. This thread asked for an opinion. When an opinion was given, it ruffled some feathers. To those who were upset, you're entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. Yes, I am of low rank, but I don't give a damn. If you don't like my opinion, prove me wrong. If you do, no hard feelings. If you get offended, Walgreens sells Vagisil for those sensitive moments.
KenpoRonin
Yellow Belt
Bode said:
Ok let me ask you this question which is more likely that there is one person better than the rest or that there are two people who are exactly the same in talent, teaching ability... and all that other good stuff. OR that all these supposed grand masters are all equal in talent and ability.
Now lets take that further, we now have many different styles of Kenpo and I bet you think that they are equal. That sounds very Communistic.
We are equal and special in our own way, now lets all hold hands and sing kum-bi-ya. What a bunch of crap.
BallistikMike
Green Belt
Why is it that many Kenpoist feel that staying true to a segment of one mans journey (Ed Parker's) feel it is the true "Method" of Kenpo and in the same breath rip apart another man's journey in Kenpo to shreads when he continues on with the journey?
It should be the exact opposite. Those who stay with a portion of Ed Parker's journey and bronze it in time like baby shoes should actually admit it.
It should be the exact opposite. Those who stay with a portion of Ed Parker's journey and bronze it in time like baby shoes should actually admit it.
Could it be said from all of this that the answer to the question is both no one and everyone?
IMHO Ed Parker's Kenpo died with him. He's the only one that could do it the way that he truly wanted, as it was designed from his inner thoughts.
Everyone else was taught, copied Mr. Parkers way, and as time went on, getting the concepts down, found their own ways.
I think we all will do this. Eventually a style or system becomes yours with enough time.
IMHO Ed Parker's Kenpo died with him. He's the only one that could do it the way that he truly wanted, as it was designed from his inner thoughts.
Everyone else was taught, copied Mr. Parkers way, and as time went on, getting the concepts down, found their own ways.
I think we all will do this. Eventually a style or system becomes yours with enough time.
KenpoRonin said:
I never said anything about anyone being "equal". You read into what I was saying for some reason. There is a distinct difference between the word equal and saying, "there is no ONE way that is correct..."
As Brother John said, each person learned specific lessons geared towards their abilities and needs. That doesn't mean they are equal, they're different, but nontheless valid for THAT PARTICULAR TEACHERS skill and lessons as taught by Mr. P.
I don't think all of Kenpo is equal in any shape or form. If you look back on this thread and other threads you will notice that I, and Doc, always say, it's up to the teacher. How good is your teacher? Do you believe that he is teaching you what YOU need.
No one can ever win this ridiculous debate and some people keep bringing it back up again. Aside from a battle of the seniors where it's an all out brawl, how will we ever really know? It's a senseless debate. Saying that all of the teachers are valid in some way allows us to push the debate aside and move on to usefull dialogue. So please... stop....
Bode said:
Yeah, It always comes down to the school yard, doesn't it!
Doc said:
Without question... the Patriots! Nobody is deeper than them overall. Over the last few years the injury bug has bitten them beyond normal. They've been down to the back ups for the back ups, and still won post season games.
BTW, Do you wear all the paint and gear?
Hand Sword said:
Amen! Our depth is darn good this year now that everyone's healthy again. Indy is going to be trouble. Dungy made a good choice in drafting Addai, IMO...that fellow is really fast. Not sure how he is at reading a front line though.
I think this is going to be a great season. I'm psyched :ultracool
Hmmm....Doc? Is this yours sir? :rofl:
irate:
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
KenpoRonin said:
It is better to keep your silence and let people THINK you're a ... aw, nevermind. What's the point. If you haven't gotten it yet, you probably can't.
D.
PS -- I really miss Robert on these threads sometimes. Even if we didn't agree, at least his logic was...well, logic; his questions, questions, and his disassembly of contradictory viewpoints, sound.
Monadnock
2nd Black Belt
Bode said:
The only problem is that students don't really know what they need...at least at the beginning and intermediate levels. They may think that they do, or think that they have the whole art summed up and in a nice little package with a price next to it, but hopefully later they will discover there is a lot more to it, and hopefully that the teacher is capabale of giving it to them.
I agree on the next part.
KenpoRonin
Yellow Belt
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
That's a nice Ad Hominem attack...
Maybe I am not making my point clear. Ed Parker was a genius. Not only did he create a new and unique system of fighting, he also came to many ground breaking discoveries into the mechanics of the human body. He then took that knowledge and built a system around it. That is Ed Parkers system and what we often refer to as EPAK. These discoveries include: Concepts and Principles of motion, Zone cancellation, Ranging, and many others. He also created a curriculum so that there would be uniformity so that a black belt in one school should have the same material as one at another school. He also had a series of progression in learning. Beginners start by learning the motion of Kenpo, Stances…. When you get more advanced you start learning how to apply that motion so that you can use it effectively in combat. This is where I think that much of info is lost or where many upper ranks don’t have all the knowledge. The reason I say that is that I have heard instructors men in the journey, tell me that this technique doesn’t work or you need to change it to that. Then I see another instructor show me how to use that technique to make it work or how the attack is supposed to be done to set the catalyst to make the technique work. It is here where I am sure that there are teachers who know more about the system than others.
I say this because I have shared the mat with many high ranking black belts in the system.
KenpoRonin
Yellow Belt
Monadnock said:
Well said, I would take it even further and say even some advanced students whom have been sheltered by their instructor or by geographical boundaries. Just because someone has been given a black belt doesnt mean they have the system. You see this all the time with people whom have been adopted into the system. And because they have several school they keep getting rank but dont have the system.
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
KenpoRonin said:
If you wanted to say that some have more of the picture than others, or are better at it, I would have agreed with you 100%. But that wasn't stated, or inferred. You stated that logic dictated that someone had the whole shebang. As a history point, Parker spoke about a Philosophers Hoody (my spoof word) which he would grant to a successor...someone he deemed had the whole pic. He never gave it to anyone. One of the guys he preened to be a successor, he also fired...then was around with several more years of development befroe passing. An earlier guy he preened for successor took the knowledge, and split with it to form his own association. After that, he was a bit more conservative about giving ANYBODY the entire picture.
All we were saying on this board, which you seemed to disagree with (and I could be wrong), was that no one guy had it all. There are some closer than others, but even they lack some of the stuff that Mr. Parker apparently felt they ought to have had to earn that distinction. I'll go on record saying this: Mr. Tatum smokes. Faster and more knowledgeable than I'll ever be. Closer to Mr. P than I was; more knowledgeable in the body of information that IS kenpo than I. Near as I can tell, Clyde is one of his lieutenants. That puts Clyde closer to Mr. Tatum's body of knowledge than I. But also remember this: Mr. Tatum was not the only one close to Parker, or who spent a lot of training time with him. Particularly in the 80's, as he was working on revisions. Mr. Conatser (who posted on this very thread as GoldenDragon7) was a constant companion while Mr. Parker was out on seminar and testing circuits...think he had some access to the old man, and what he thought kenpo should be? Mr. Chapel was not only a long time student, but close personal friend, with Mr. P coming to HIS house to hang out, and they worked together on some of the latest video project that Mr. P was humping out prior to his slipping away. Is it possible he had some insights into what the old man envisioned for kenpo?
There were several core groups that Mr. P was working with independently from each other, each convinced that they were the central/main/core group... on a timeline, these groups were training with Mr. P closer to the time of his death than Mr. Tatum...in other words, after these two men had a parting of the ways. Either they (the people in these groups) were all getting the same thing (which Mr. Tatum may or may not have had access to, as many were also his students), or they were all getting something different. In which case, no one person has the whole puzzle...which seems to be the conclusion of the people that were closest to Mr. Parker, personally and professionally. Of which neither you nor I are one.
To logon on and say "This senior is the best, and closest to what Parker wanted" without knowing the history of the relationships they had, or of the timelines, or even Mr. Parkers peculiar personality characteristics of being diplomatic to your face then limiting your access to resources after you've walked away...this demonstrates, to me (my own opinion), a type of ignorance.
Who did Mr. Parker give the Philosophers cape to? No one. Go figure. And then, with a straight face, and not looking like a fool, tell me that one senior over all the others is the schnizzle.
Best Regards,
Dave
Kenpojujitsu3
Master Black Belt
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
You forgot this part.....
so there!
Ok post finished, good post.
This whole arguement of "this instructor is closet to the source and is therefore the greatest" is pointless for one reason. Why argue that someone was the closet to being only "second-best"? Why not just skip that and go "this senior was better at kenpo and knew more about it than SGM Parker himself". When I see these posts come up I think two things.
1) ok so this person thinks that their instructor or instructor's instructor is "the greatest thing since sliced bread."
and
2) Flag on the play! Which flag you ask?
:bs: this one.
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