So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?

[Ray]

There is one person who has More of the system than any other person.


No one before him had all the information and how many after him were able to get it?


Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. I have not offered any personal attacks on any senior.


You consider that a personal attack. How very sensitive you must be, maybe martial arts isn’t your field, maybe something like the peace corp. I was simply proving error in his argument.

I don't really know who's teaching the "correct" system but there are several people teaching "better" than what I know.

Given the opportunity to study under Mr. Chapel, or Mr. Tatum or Mr. Sepulveda or Mr. Planas or Mr. Pick (and the list goes on), I would jump at the chance--because any of them can make me a better kenpo practitioner. Then again, do I have the talent and determination to make their teaching and make it work for me?

Besides this thread is just more and more like "my dad can lick your dad" arguements of 10 year old kids.

 

[Hand Sword]

 

[Hand Sword]

First, no one system is any better than any of the others, (This includes the Kenpo versions too!)

Second, reasonable thinking would say that those who got their BB's before so and so... Are legitimit, no arguing there. However, when they got theirs, Ed Parker and his Kenpo were young and still evolving. Later students, such as Mr. Tatum, Got the finished version or closer to it, along the lines of Kenpo's and Mr. Parker's evolution. The older students were set in their Kenpo ways, exchanged with Mr. Parker off and on, and added/ deleted to their Kenpo, along the lines of their own prefernces, making it Their Kenpo, as we all do with time.

Bottom line, all are legit. Having spent the time and practice that they all have proves this. If one can spend time with each, you would learn.

 

[KenpoRonin]

Originally Posted by KenpoRonin
I go away for a day and this forum goes to crap. "that's my opinion"...

For the record this is what I said, not back peddling, clarification.

1. There is one person who has More of the system than any other person. That does not mean all of the system or no other person has a lot of or most of the system. Ergo no two people are exactly alike. There may be one more skilled in a particular area over this person who has more of the whole complete system.

1. 
   
   
   lost me on that one.
   Not surprising. Simply stated, there is a short list of those who are the best. Of that list there are no two who are equal. Some excel in certain fields. There would be one who excels in more fields than the rest.
   Quote:
   Originally Posted by KenpoRonin
   There may be individuals with more information which was accumulated from other systems, but may not fit well with Kenpo.
   
   or it does fit well...point being?
   There are a lot of people adopted in and never got the full system. Remember what this post is about, if you are confused which is something I think happens to you a lot, look just under my name it will tell you.
   Quote:
   Originally Posted by KenpoRonin
   
   [*] Ed Parker gave more information to certain individuals than he did to others, based on trust, not seniority.
   
   
   and what does that portend?
   Just reiterating my point that seniority is not always what it is cracked up to be.
   Quote:
   Originally Posted by KenpoRonin
   I Notice I have not said anyone in particular, that is because I am not making any claim as fact for any one individual, but that there is always one better than the rest.
   
   
   better at what exactly?
   Many here on this post love to think all the old greats are equal in their own right. This is fallacious based on my above argument.
   
   
   Quote:
   Originally Posted by KenpoRonin
   For instance who was the best basketball player of all time?
   
   no doubt, Bill Russell.
   
   
   
   Quote:
   Originally Posted by KenpoRonin
   Who is the best rock band of all time?
   
   
   of course, the Clash... go on
   
   
   Quote:
   Originally Posted by KenpoRonin
   Who is the best cyclist of all time?
   
   
   Eddy Merckx
   
   
   Quote:
   Originally Posted by KenpoRonin
   Who is the greatest composer of all time?
   
   
   Bach, but do you contemporary bastards care anymore...
   
   
   Quote:
   Originally Posted by KenpoRonin
   Now these questions are subjective to a degree, but have generally accepted answers.
   
   
   just a degree? ... lucky we have the general public as the final say in such matters.
   I stand corrected if your answers an example of the general public, The general public obviously are idiots.
   
   

 

[MJS]

How very clever of you.

There is one person who has More of the system than any other person. That does not mean all of the system or no other person has a lot of or most of the system. Ergo no two people are exactly alike. There may be one more skilled in a particular area over this person who has more of the whole complete system.

No one before him had all the information and how many after him were able to get it?

The second post was in reference to what Parker said about him, I was simply paraphrasing Parker.

As for the claim of hard evidence this is what I said about that

As for my ignorance, I do have hard evidence that I use to make my claims, as I had said in a previous post. But those who respond would rather attack me rather than ask what evidence I have or am referring to. He did declare a successor. One of my Students has an issue of Black Belt where Parker named Tatum as his successor.

This post was in refernce to my previous post, but I did provide evidence of Parker Claiming Tatum as the Key guy and likely heir.

Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. Who cares Judas was with Jesus before Paul, but well I think we all know how that bit of history turned out. Now I am not claiming Chapel is a traitor to Parker, just showing the fallacy of that argument.

Ok I am not senior but I believe this guy is more Senior than almost all of you. He knows the history and this is what he had to say.

Those are two separate points, though both have to do with history. Chapel’s claim about being more senior has to do with being more legit or more… something. Since no one would answer the question of that post rather attacked me for making it. I will assume that he himself superior in some way. I offer someone to give me another plausible reason if I am wrong. Second I offered up Tracy as only someone who being on the sidelines the whole time as a non-partisan historical perspective.Nice try though

Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. Who cares....

I have not offered any personal attacks on any senior.

You consider that a personal attack. How very sensitive you must be, maybe martial arts isn’t your field, maybe something like the peace corp. I was simply proving error in his argument.

Nice try.

While I realize that this is a hot issue, taking shots at one another really isn't going to do much more than get the thread shut down. Now, aside from that, I saw above that you said that you had evidence. I'm not interested in taking shots at you, but I am interested in hearing what you have to say regarding the above comment.

Mike

 

[Carol]

There is an OCR scan of the article on Larry Tatum's website, as well as on usadojo.com. Same scan, but the formatting on usadojo.com is a bit easier to read.

I made an attempt to keep the quotes in context. If someone does have a copy of the magazne, it would be seriously cool to get a clean scan of it. It's a very good read.

Full Article:
http://www.usadojo.com/articles/magician-motion.htm


Snippet: Ed Parker "doesn't give a damn about beautiful form"

"A lot of kenpo instructors are searching," he said. "I'm not saying I have all the answers, but I haven't stuck to tradition. When you stick to tradition, you're bound. You're bound to see only what is in that realm of knowl- edge."

It is just this rejection of tradition that has led the kenpoist to the second secret of his system, a concept based on the age-old premise that the end justifies the means.

"When I teach, I want effects," Parker said. "If a punch comes, if you block it and you look lazy, as long as you block it, that's alii care about. I don't give a damn about going down with beautiful form.

"I was talking like this twenty years ago when I was a no-good-for-nothing rebel. I'm a street fighter. I'm a realist. I've seen guys go into a fight and bite {the other) guy's nose off. And knowing that his nose is gone, he still hits! He's an animal.

Snippet: Ed Parker also indicates that:
- he held back some knowledge
- he took on proteges to help ensure the continuity of Kenpo
- That he shared his full scope of knowledge with these proteges
- That his knowledge would also be shared with anyone else that is sincere, because when he goes to his grave he would want other people to know
- That his students (plural) would modify and perfect Kenpo

Parker admitted more than the fear of jealous rivals has motivated his reti- cence regarding his American kenpo. He said he has worried over former students who would leave and open up kenpo studios of their own.
"I always had the fear of guys taking off, being disloyal and opening up on their own," he said. "And so I left out a lot of stuff."

Parker said he found some students resenting his secretiveness, once they found out he had hidden knowledge from them. "They were somewhat hurt in a way ," he admitted, "but they still feel happy. They are (the now-complete techniques) some minor additions in the whole puzzle. I am teaching those who stuck by me. The fact is, I was going to reserve it (the knowledge) for my chil- dren and my son. He's not interested in the martial arts. He studies, but his heart is in the (fine)
arts."

In place of children lost as succes- sors, Parker ~oted he has taken on pro- teges to insure the continuity of the kenpo systemo .
"My key protege is this kid Larry Tatum," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid. He's my. number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything. "

The kenpoist noted that he is helping 15-year student Tatum complete a book, Confidence, A Child's First Weal on. He also named two others he consil ers proteges, insiders with whom he h. shared the full scope of his knowledge Tom Kelly, who Parker said is the higl est-degree black belt at a seventh-dG level, operates a Parker school in Sa Lake City; Joe Palanzo, another forml student who Parker said holds a fiftl degree black belt, teaches at a school i Baltimore.

In addition to h is select protege Parker insisted he will offer his kno~ edge to "anyone else who's definitel sincere, because when I go to the grave want to know that there are other pel pie who (know) outside of my famil' They would have the mountain ( knowledge."

Once he sees his students and prc teges have the mountain securely withi their grip, Parker said he will rest eas regarding the future of kenpo.
"I don't see that once my studen learn kenpo, they'll modify it," he saic "They'll perfect it. And that's wher they will excel."

KenpoRonin, this is not a slam at you or anyone else, please don't take it s such.

From a birds eye view, this reads to me like Mr. Parker identified three proteges with the intent of keeping the system on. And, that he was leaving the door open for others to follow. It speaks volumes for the confidence that Mr. Parker had in Mr. Tatum, but to me it reads like Mr. Parker did not intend to have only one successor.

Personally...public consensus does not strike me as the best metric for making a trainig decision. It isn't public consensus that determines one's reasons for training in MA, the goals that one wants to see from it, or how it fits around work/family/geography etc. It most certainly is NOT public consensus that will dictate how and when any of us will use our skills.

Dang that would stink if it did. Make a stupid move on MT...hmmmm....public consensus says OK Carol it's your turn to face an open can of Whoop ***. Yikes!

 

[Ray]

In place of children lost as successors,
Parker noted he has taken on proteges
to insure the continuity of the kenpo system.

"My key protege is this kid Larry Tatum," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid.

He's my number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything.

protegeS
Right now (back then).

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I stand corrected if your answers an example of the general public, The general public obviously are idiots.

It is not the aim of Kenpo to merely produce a skillful as well as powerful practitioner, but to create a well integrated student respectful of all

Good job Mr. Hoff. You are showing everyone how well you are assimilating the lessons of Kenpo. Exactly how does a 'Ronin' (Masterless warrior) become so devoted to one master anyway? As I've said previously, your dedication is commendable. But your 'evidence' is lacking and statements contradictory. And when the contradictions are brought to your attention you become confrontational, thus further negating an valid points you may be trying to present.

Kenpo, Motion Kenpo, EPAK, American Kenpo...whatever you want to call it is a system that is based on logic and has the goal of creating respectful indivduals as stated by Mr. Parker himself. If you want to hold true to what Mr. Parker said you need to do two things.

1. Be respectful, so far you have not as you view this as "sparring 6 on 1" but you're the only one sparring.

2. Follow logic. Logic doesn't allow for opinons or assumptions. So far the argument for several great seniors has been based on logic and history. The argument for one to succeed all others has been based on opinion, personal sentiment and assumptions.

We all have opinions, but you claim to have facts. They have yet to be presented and all the snide comments are dragging the thread down, mine included.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Snippet: Ed Parker "doesn't give a damn about beautiful form"

So I guess we can throw out all the arguments about who moves better............right?

That his students (plural) would modify and perfect Kenpo

Blasphemy and Heresy I say! LOL

Good Post.

 

[Carol]

So I guess we can throw out all the arguments about who moves better............right?

Sir you may be asking for trouble when you ask an engineer rhetorical questions

It calls in to question the importance of "moves better" in terms of Mr. Parker's selection of proteges. It doesn't say that moving better isn't cool, or isn't a worthy desire of the individual student. It was nothing that got universalized into the system.

Blasphemy and Heresy I say! LOL

The plague of locusts are on their way

*zipping in to a fire suit*

The article reads as if loyalty and sincerity were very important to Mr. Parker. It indicates that in 1979, Mr. Palanzo was a 7th, and Mr. Kelly a 5th.

Mr. Tatum was not yet a 5th black at that time, correct?

When determining a protege, one looks at talent as well as potential. Given the importance that Mr. Parker placed on loyalty, is this really Mr. Parker saying that he preferring his lower black over his higher blacks?

Or, is he saying that Mr. Palanzo and Mr. Kelly are his students that have already been developed... and Mr. Tatum is developing. Mr. Tatum is on the path of obtaining all of Mr. Parker's...all while Mr. Parker is delighting in his progress and his potential?

*peering around for flames*

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Sir you may be asking for trouble when you ask an engineer rhetorical questions

It calls in to question the importance of "moves better" in terms of Mr. Parker's selection of proteges. It doesn't say that moving better isn't cool, or isn't a worthy desire of the individual student. It was nothing that got universalized into the system.



The plague of locusts are on their way

*zipping in to a fire suit*

The article reads as if loyalty and sincerity were very important to Mr. Parker. It indicates that in 1979, Mr. Palanzo was a 7th, and Mr. Kelly a 5th.

Mr. Tatum was not yet a 5th black at that time, correct?

When determining a protege, one looks at talent as well as potential. Given the importance that Mr. Parker placed on loyalty, is this really Mr. Parker saying that he preferring his lower black over his higher blacks?

Or, is he saying that Mr. Palanzo and Mr. Kelly are his students that have already been developed... and Mr. Tatum is developing. Mr. Tatum is on the path of obtaining all of Mr. Parker's...all while Mr. Parker is delighting in his progress and his potential?

*peering around for flames*

You are one sharp person!

Minus the part where Mr. Kelly's and Palanzo's ranks were reversed (If my history serves my Mr. Kelly was 7th and Mr. palanzo was 5th, but I may be wrong) I'd have to agree. Especially the bolded part. It could make sense when put in context with the "key guy right now" part of the article.

 

[Carol]

Mr. Kelly's and Palanzo's ranks were reversed (If my history serves my Mr. Kelly was 7th and Mr. palanzo was 5th, but I may be wrong).

No sir you are correct. It seems my belt chart does not have an effective defence against typos.

Your kind words are leaving me speechless :asian:

 

[pete]

you can comb through the sacred scrolls, hanging on every word, which may or may not have been as carefully chosen as they are now being interpreted and rationalize anything or everything.

the question is who is teaching the correct system, and everyone is looking at the WHO IS rather than debating WHAT the CORRECT SYSTEM is.

If we figure that one out, then we can easily identify who is teaching it.

Is the correct system the one we know as American Kenpo, the one with:
154 self defense techniques,
96 technique extensions (of orange-green belt techniques),
11 forms: 9 empty handed + 2 weapon (clubs and knives),
a system of freestyle techniques,
14 sets: stance, block, strike, kick, finger, and coord (1&2) + 2-man and one weapon (staff).

To my understanding this is the complete AMERICAN KENPO system. CORRECT would imply the level of QUALITY applied to this material, as both MENTAL KNOWLEDGE and PHYSICAL APPLICATION, through understanding of the CONCEPTS that make the material a system, or SYLLABUS, and TRAINING to achieve the PHYSICAL ACTUALIZATION to make it WORK.

now, WHO is teaching this system correctly?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

you can comb through the sacred scrolls, hanging on every word, which may or may not have been as carefully chosen as they are now being interpreted and rationalize anything or everything.

the question is who is teaching the correct system, and everyone is looking at the WHO IS rather than debating WHAT the CORRECT SYSTEM is.

If we figure that one out, then we can easily identify who is teaching it.

Is the correct system the one we know as American Kenpo, the one with:
154 self defense techniques,
96 technique extensions (of orange-green belt techniques),
11 forms: 9 empty handed + 2 weapon (clubs and knives),
a system of freestyle techniques,
14 sets: stance, block, strike, kick, finger, and coord (1&2) + 2-man and one weapon (staff).

To my understanding this is the complete AMERICAN KENPO system. CORRECT would imply the level of QUALITY applied to this material, as both MENTAL KNOWLEDGE and PHYSICAL APPLICATION, through understanding of the CONCEPTS that make the material a system, or SYLLABUS, and TRAINING to achieve the PHYSICAL ACTUALIZATION to make it WORK.

now, WHO is teaching this system correctly?

Very good points about complete and correct!

Even given your fairly complete list of the "complete" system the 'completeness' could be debated however "your understanding" of it could not.

 

[KenpoRonin]

While I realize that this is a hot issue, taking shots at one another really isn't going to do much more than get the thread shut down. Now, aside from that, I saw above that you said that you had evidence. I'm not interested in taking shots at you, but I am interested in hearing what you have to say regarding the above comment.

Mike

Here is a quote from an article Parker had with Black Belt magazine

…He has worried over former students would leave and open up Kenpo studios of their own. I always had the fear guys taking off being disloyal and opening up on their own, so I left out a lot of stuff. Parker said he found some students resenting… that he had hidden knowledge from him. Quote they were somewhat hurt in a way he admitted but they would still feel happy. They are (the now complete techniques) some minor additions in the whole puzzle. I am teaching those who stuck by me. The fact is I was going to reserve the knowledge for my children and my son. He is not interested in the martial arts he studies but his heart is in the fine arts. In place of children lost as successors he has taken on protégés to insure the continuity of the kenpo system.

My key protege is this kid Larry Tatum," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid. He's my number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything. "

The kenpoist noted that he is helping 15-year student Tatum complete a book, Confidence, A Child's First Weapon.

He also named two others he considers proteges, insiders with whom he has shared the full scope of his knowledge, Tom Kelly, who Parker said is the highest-degree black belt at a seventh-degree level, operates a Parker school in Salt Lake City; Joe Palanzo, another former student who Parker said holds a fifth degree black belt, teaches at a school in Baltimore.

Those are Parkers words not mine. He names three people to be possible successors to the system.

There are also Five people who listed in the Journey (which is the Who's who of Kenpo) who obtained their black belt from Larry Tatum.

 

[KenpoRonin]

KenpoRonin, this is not a slam at you or anyone else, please don't take it s such.

From a birds eye view, this reads to me like Mr. Parker identified three proteges with the intent of keeping the system on. And, that he was leaving the door open for others to follow. It speaks volumes for the confidence that Mr. Parker had in Mr. Tatum, but to me it reads like Mr. Parker did not intend to have only one successor.

None taken. I totally agree with what you said. Parker didn't want just one person to have the information, but he wanted loyal people to have the information. There is then the question of who were the loyal people who also had enough time to spend with Parker on the mats. I am talking about hours of mat time. I know from personal experience that my growth has slowed because I chose instructor that is not in the same town as me. There is something about spending time with your instructor on a daily basis as apposed to a few times a year.

 

[KenpoRonin]

protegeS
Right now (back then).

Yea and he was the only one to teach on Parkers behalf for years later. It is not likely that changed one or two years later. I would bet that didn't change until their falling out in or around 87.

 

[Seig]

Yea and he was the only one to teach on Parkers behalf for years later. It is not likely that changed one or two years later. I would bet that didn't change until their falling out in or around 87.

Really? The suppose you tell me what all the Black Belts that were members of the IKKA were doing? Many people taught "on "MR. "Parker's behalf", even after Mr. Tatum left the organization. I have interacted with many Seniors in a variety of ways, and what I have learned from them is this, if you think there is only one way to do anything, then you have learned nothing. I normally stay out of these kinds of threads, because I see them as pointless. Try describing the color blue to a blind man, sam ting. Here is the reality, your arguments are circular and counter productive. No one has said anything bad about Mr. Tatum, or Clyde. Have you heard Mr. Tatum say anything of the things you claim? If he was the one true heir, why did he not try to claim the throne? I am willing to bet it is because he is happy with what he is doing. If he wanted the throne, he would not have left the IKKA. One last point, those that I have talked to that were close to Mr. Parker, are still teaching on his behalf.

 

[KenpoRonin]

[/font][/color]

Good job Mr. Hoff. You are showing everyone how well you are assimilating the lessons of Kenpo. Exactly how does a 'Ronin' (Masterless warrior) become so devoted to one master anyway? As I've said previously, your dedication is commendable. But your 'evidence' is lacking and statements contradictory. And when the contradictions are brought to your attention you become confrontational, thus further negating an valid points you may be trying to present.

Kenpo, Motion Kenpo, EPAK, American Kenpo...whatever you want to call it is a system that is based on logic and has the goal of creating respectful indivduals as stated by Mr. Parker himself. If you want to hold true to what Mr. Parker said you need to do two things.

1. Be respectful, so far you have not as you view this as "sparring 6 on 1" but you're the only one sparring.

2. Follow logic. Logic doesn't allow for opinons or assumptions. So far the argument for several great seniors has been based on logic and history. The argument for one to succeed all others has been based on opinion, personal sentiment and assumptions.

We all have opinions, but you claim to have facts. They have yet to be presented and all the snide comments are dragging the thread down, mine included.

I got to say you have a talent for picking apart someone's argument by picking and choosing a segments of my argument and attacking that part. Completely ignoring the body of my argument or when you can’t combat my argument you simply say that I am being disrespectful. Thought is much like martial arts, one will not grow unless someone is willing to challenge your thought, push your thought into uncomfortable areas. Until you have put your thoughts into a firing squad and have people attack them, can you know what you know has validity.

I noticed that KenpoDoc posted a series of individuals who were the best at specifics. No one questioned or commented on a single word he said. How interesting. I only listed one person; he lists 4 claims, no remarks. I would be willing to bet that is because he put Chapel on there and he only validates your own ideas about Chapel.

 

[Ray]

Yea and he was the only one to teach on Parkers behalf for years later. It is not likely that changed one or two years later. I would bet that didn't change until their falling out in or around 87.

Hmmm. Funny you should bring up the "falling out." Maybe Mr. Parker changed his mind about Mr. Tatum?