So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Ok wait I am going to completely change everything, I retract it all... I know I am going to get a lot of grief for this, but to be true to myself I am going to come forth. Tatum is not the most knowledgeable man in Kenpo. It is this Man.http://www.arnis.org/home_study/home_study.htm

He has come up with no wait I will use his words...

These manuals - over 1800 pages - constitute the most authoritative written instructions ever written on American Kenpo Karate. Every technique, from yellow belt to 3rd degree black belt, is described in detail. These manuals cover all of the concepts, principles and theories utilized in each of the self defense techniques. A favorite for most American Kenpo Instructors - a must for all Kenpo libraries.

No wait there is more


This course is the first complete American Kenpo Home Study Course that available on the the world. This course is designed to be simple enough for beginners to learn from, but intense enough for instructors to enhance their learning. This is the course that so many have attempted to duplicate. This course is used by students and instructors throughout the world. This program teaches all of the concepts, principles and theories utilized in all of the self defense techniques, forms and sets. There is a great deal of background and history included with the instruction of the self defense techniques. This course includes 27 video tapes covering all of the concept, principles, theories, basics in order to completely understand the self-defense material, forms and sets required for belt advancement. A 600 page manual is also included to act as a guide and workbook for the students. Students involved in this home study course get guidance, free rank testing and certification from the American Kenpo Legacy Association Headquarters.

How can you criticize me for touting Tatum when you claim to have the most authoritative system in the world! Talk about a hypocrite!!

Uuuuuuuh you mean most authoritative "system of learning" as in "best instructional MATERIALS." Duh...... it's an ad for a product, would you rather it said "second best on the market" or "ranked number 3 in it's category." It's supposed to sell something. Did you sign up with Clyde because he said "come to LTKKA we're number two?" Have you come to this board proclaiming "Larry Tatum is 4th best on the planet".

Notice it says "program" and "course" and "manuals". Not "best system of martial arts" or "best instructor" or "we move the best". The ads imply "best products for learning kenpo" not "best people teaching or practicing kenpo". There is a clear difference.

Also Kenpo isn't even the only system advertised on the site. There are two more as well but you didn't mention that part.

Maybe you buy cars because JD Power and Associates ranked them as last in their class and the ads tell you this? I doubt it.

As Clyde would say "Captain Obvious again". Duuuuuh!

Thanks for the free advertising though, and you even included a link how thoughtful!

From my associations site

"The American Kenpo Legacy Association has made available several Home Study Programs from which to study and obtain rank and certification. Our Home Study Programs allow you to obtain legitimate rank, recognized by other Kenpo Associations. Nothing can replace studying directly under a competent instructor. However, this is the best Home Study Course available if you are unable to find a local Kenpo School. Our system is used by many School owners, association heads, students and instructors. Check below for the program that is right for you:"

Notice no mention of US, just our product.

 

[KenpoRonin]

Uuuuuuuh you mean most authoritative "system of learning" as in "best instructional MATERIALS."

1800 pages - constitute the most authoritative written instructions ever written on American Kenpo Karate.

That doesn’t sound like your pushing just a system of learning, That sounds like you are claiming to be the most authoritative on American Kenpo using writing as your medium.

Duh...... it's an ad for a product, would you rather it said "second best on the market" or "ranked number 3 in it's category." It's supposed to sell something.

No I would rather you just be honest. If yours in not something you shouldn’t make that claim. It reminds me a lot of those fake diet pills tauting miracle results. Why don’t you just add that if you take this course, your hair will grow back, you will become taller and chicks will dig you.

Did you sign up with Clyde because he said "come to LTKKA we're number two?" Have you come to this board proclaiming "Larry Tatum is 4th best on the planet".

No they didn’t have to sell me on their system, no words, they just showed me what they did and I knew that was what I wanted.

Notice it says "program" and "course" and "manuals". Not "best system of martial arts" or "best instructor" or "we move the best". The ads imply "best products for learning kenpo" not "best people teaching or practicing kenpo". There is a clear difference.

This program teaches all of the concepts, principles and theories utilized in all of the self defense techniques, forms and sets. There is a great deal of background and history included with the instruction of the self defense techniques. This course includes 27 video tapes covering all of the concept, principles, theories, basics in order to completely understand the self-defense material, forms and sets required for belt advancement.

Yea sure it doesn’t say those things, but it still makes some pretty bold statements.
If your program does ALL that you say it does, I will never have to travel for a lesson again. All there is to Kenpo in a nice little package.

Also Kenpo isn't even the only system advertised on the site. There are two more as well but you didn't mention that part.

I could care less about the other systems that’s why.

Maybe you buy cars because JD Power and Associates ranked them as last in their class and the ads tell you this? I doubt it.

First of all JD Power doesn’t sell the cars they push, So using your argument, which non-partisan third party with an authority endorsed your product? And if you say Chapel I will puke. Actually if it such an authoritative source on Kenpo does it also have the SL4 in it as well; because if it doesn’t Ron, there you go next big money maker. I got some friends who shoot videos so let me know.$$$$

As Clyde would say "Captain Obvious again". Duuuuuh!

He may say that, but I am sure he wouldn’t be saying it here.

Thanks for the free advertising though, and you even included a link how thoughtful!

Hey no problem glad I could be of service.

 

[Bode]

First of all JD Power doesn’t sell the cars they push, So using your argument, which non-partisan third party with an authority endorsed your product? And if you say Chapel I will puke. Actually if it such an authoritative source on Kenpo does it also have the SL4 in it as well; because if it doesn’t Ron, there you go next big money maker. I got some friends who shoot videos so let me know.$$$$

Now you're just being an *******. Chapel is not part of this conversation yet you insist on bring him back up and, of course, with negative overtones and connotations. I suppose that when you have no other recourse, backbiting is the fallback... backs up against the wall, keep pushing.

 

[evenflow1121]

Not that I would ever have to speak for the man, but time and time again on this forum, Mr. Chapel has stated that he is not a fan of video training. Bringing Mr. Chapel into this conversation the way you are is in bad taste.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

.....First of all JD Power doesn’t sell the cars they push, So using your argument, which non-partisan third party with an authority endorsed your product? And if you say Chapel I will puke. Actually if it such an authoritative source on Kenpo does it also have the SL4 in it as well; because if it doesn’t Ron, there you go next big money maker. I got some friends who shoot videos so let me know.$$$$....

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. The usual, no intelligent rebutal available so you fall back to insults, even stooping so low as to pull someone in that wasn't even involved :rofl: . Ah well how trite. Since you're so fond of Mr. Tatum and use what Mr. Parker said as the crutch here are a few more Mr. Parker favorites.

"Those who criticize are usually covering up their own incompetence."

"When one knows his subject, fear of verbally answering is not a problem."

"Unsubstantiated judgment of others can lead to paths of sorrow."

"Jerks are those who display qualities of insecurity."

"Use logic and common sense at all times."

"All men, no matter who they are or how much they know, can share their knowledge with others."

"A "winner" compliments others. A "loser" condemns."

"It is not the aim of Kenpo to merely produce a skillful as well as powerful practitioner, but to create a well integrated student respectful of all."

-- Ed Parker Zen of Kenpo

Alas, this is old I'll not support you sullying Mr. Tatum's name any further with your lack of class while representing him. My involvement in this thread is over.

:feedtroll

 

[KenpoRonin]

Not that I would ever have to speak for the man, but time and time again on this forum, Mr. Chapel has stated that he is not a fan of video training. Bringing Mr. Chapel into this conversation the way you are is in bad taste.

If that is the case I offer a sincere apology to you, Mr. Chapel. Actually my intent was to keep you out of the argument, by bringing you up. If your opinion is as this person claims, then we are in agreement. Sorry.

 

[KenpoRonin]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. The usual, no intelligent rebutal available so you fall back to insults, even stooping so low as to pull someone in that wasn't even involved :rofl: . Ah well how trite. Since you're so fond of Mr. Tatum and use what Mr. Parker said as the crutch here are a few more Mr. Parker favorites.

"Those who criticize are usually covering up their own incompetence."

"When one knows his subject, fear of verbally answering is not a problem."

"Unsubstantiated judgment of others can lead to paths of sorrow."

"Jerks are those who display qualities of insecurity."

"Use logic and common sense at all times."

"All men, no matter who they are or how much they know, can share their knowledge with others."

"A "winner" compliments others. A "loser" condemns."

"It is not the aim of Kenpo to merely produce a skillful as well as powerful practitioner, but to create a well integrated student respectful of all."

-- Ed Parker Zen of Kenpo

Alas, this is old I'll not support you sullying Mr. Tatum's name any further with your lack of class while representing him. My involvement in this thread is over.

:feedtroll

As for you , when you have no point you go right back to the respect issue. I shouldn't expect any more of an arguement from you, I don't know why I bother with you.

I guess I consider it practice for when I get married. I need to be able to argue against anything.

 

[Kenpodoc]

I have also had a semenar with Tommy Chavies, great guy, also on my short list.

Tommy Chavies, moves well, faster than any Human being has a right to be, fluid, powerful and explosive. I really enjoyed the one seminar I had with him. You do realize who taught him is superb basics don't you?

Jeff

 

[KenpoRonin]

Tommy Chavies, moves well, faster than any Human being has a right to be, fluid, powerful and explosive. I really enjoyed the one seminar I had with him. You do realize who taught him is superb basics don't you?

Jeff

Yes I do and yes he is. I have also shared the mats with his students and more importly he can also teach what he does. That is why I said he is on my short list.

 

[hongkongfooey]

Tommy Chavies, moves well, faster than any Human being has a right to be, fluid, powerful and explosive. I really enjoyed the one seminar I had with him. You do realize who taught him is superb basics don't you?

Jeff

Isn't Mr. Chavies a product of Doc?

 

[hongkongfooey]

Now you're just being an a*&hole. Chapel is not part of this conversation yet you insist on bring him back up and, of course, with negative overtones and connotations. I suppose that when you have no other recourse, backbiting is the fallback... backs up against the wall, keep pushing.

Doc was a constant target of Clyde and Robert when they were here. They mainly hounded him about his degrees. This type of nonsense(personal attacks) is the main reason so many seniors no longer post over @ KN.

 

[John Bishop]

Moderators Note:
This thread is again starting to get off topic, and going back to personal attacks or name calling.
So that we do not have to lock this thread, or be forced to suspend any members, I'm going to make one simple request.

If you disagree with anything in this thread, attack the statement or argument, not the person making it.

Myself, and I think many of the other members would like to read what it is about a certain senior that makes them stand out in your mind as a good teacher, technician, and demonstrator. Instead of reading who was in or out, or who got the "whole" system. A few mpegs of the seniors performing would also go a long way in showing "who moves" well.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Isn't Mr. Chavies a product of Doc?

Yup.

 

[Flying Crane]

Clearly there will be no agreement here. Instead of rehashing the same arguments over and over, maybe someone who has been heavily involved in this thread could extend an Olive Branch, offer to Agree to Disagree, and everyone could move on with their lives...

 

[KenpoDave]

Snippet: Ed Parker "doesn't give a damn about beautiful form"

Quote:
"A lot of kenpo instructors are searching," he said. "I'm not saying I have all the answers, but I haven't stuck to tradition. When you stick to tradition, you're bound. You're bound to see only what is in that realm of knowl- edge."

It is just this rejection of tradition that has led the kenpoist to the second secret of his system, a concept based on the age-old premise that the end justifies the means.

"When I teach, I want effects," Parker said. "If a punch comes, if you block it and you look lazy, as long as you block it, that's alii care about. I don't give a damn about going down with beautiful form.

"I was talking like this twenty years ago when I was a no-good-for-nothing rebel. I'm a street fighter. I'm a realist. I've seen guys go into a fight and bite {the other) guy's nose off. And knowing that his nose is gone, he still hits! He's an animal.

Hmm, I don't read this as him not giving a damn about beautiful form, but rather that practicality comes first. As always, form follows function.

We could get into a debate over what "form" actually is, though. Personally, I consider good form to be correct form. So, if the form is bad, the movement is not correct. Now, you may still accomplish your goal of the moment of winning the fight. But fighting is often all about adrenaline and mental attitude. Kenpo is about more than that, isn't it?

 

[Ray]

Systems are created for certain reasons. A simple example is the "closed loop feedback" system for central air/heating systems (thermostats). A classic and more complex system is described in "My System" by Aaron Nimzovich (it's a treatise on chess). It is not so much the system that is the holy grail, it is more of what we want our system to do for us that is the reason for of the system.

Upon this general framework called kenpo, we can build skyscrapers or oil rigs. And each has it's place. If we are architects of better ways to do our kenpo, then it is foolish to ignore what any senior has to offer.

One senior does his kenpo this way and another that way...learn as many as you can.

Here's a dumb story that has no bearing on this subject at all: When you want to bolt something to a concrete floor (wall or masonary), there are several ways to do it; one way is an anchor bolt (hilti or ramset). to use these anchor bolts, you drill a hole and then pound the bolt into it...when you tighten the nut, it grips and doesn't come out. Most places I've been, when the bolts are no longer needed, they are sawed off close to the ground with a hacksaw...one old-timer maintenance guy at a particular place said "drill the holes longer than needed"...later, when the bolts weren't needed, he took the nuts off and hit the top of the bolt once with a sledge hammer---the bolt went in and was flush with the floor. Wow, no stubby little thing sticking up out of the floor. Boy, it's nice to have more than one way to take care of that problem. There's other ways besides anchor bolts to affix something to concrete (or masonary), it's just a matter of which one works for what you want.

 

[KenpoRonin]

Systems are created for certain reasons. A simple example is the "closed loop feedback" system for central air/heating systems (thermostats). A classic and more complex system is described in "My System" by Aaron Nimzovich (it's a treatise on chess). It is not so much the system that is the holy grail, it is more of what we want our system to do for us that is the reason for of the system.

Upon this general framework called kenpo, we can build skyscrapers or oil rigs. And each has it's place. If we are architects of better ways to do our kenpo, then it is foolish to ignore what any senior has to offer.

One senior does his kenpo this way and another that way...learn as many as you can.

Here's a dumb story that has no bearing on this subject at all: When you want to bolt something to a concrete floor (wall or masonary), there are several ways to do it; one way is an anchor bolt (hilti or ramset). to use these anchor bolts, you drill a hole and then pound the bolt into it...when you tighten the nut, it grips and doesn't come out. Most places I've been, when the bolts are no longer needed, they are sawed off close to the ground with a hacksaw...one old-timer maintenance guy at a particular place said "drill the holes longer than needed"...later, when the bolts weren't needed, he took the nuts off and hit the top of the bolt once with a sledge hammer---the bolt went in and was flush with the floor. Wow, no stubby little thing sticking up out of the floor. Boy, it's nice to have more than one way to take care of that problem. There's other ways besides anchor bolts to affix something to concrete (or masonary), it's just a matter of which one works for what you want.

On a similar not I have a student who sell industrial pipe fittings. These new pipe fitters, connecters, and joints, called grooved locks allow pipes to be attached quicker and faster than traditional welding. It cuts the time down to work on section to about a fifth of the time. They are just as effective, as welding but they are quicker, easier to use and speed up the process of getting a building built faster.

So while there are many effective ways to do something there are also better ways to do something. There are also ways you shouldn’t do things.


…And I want to apologize in advanced if I offended any welders. I know how sensitive people can be on this board. I still think being a welder is a fine occupation.

 

[MJS]

Planas (Two siminars) Palanzo 0, Mills(0 but had an instructor who was under him for several years), Chapel 0, Tom Kelly (1 siminar and was the first time I saw the majic of Kenpo), Conatser (0 but had instructor who spent several years under him), Tanaka0, Cogliandro 0, Liles 0, Lerouz 0, Muhammed 0, Donnie Williams 0 , Brian Hawkins0 , Velez 0, Sean Kelley (one hour), Speakman (3 siminars), Pick 0 but have a close friend who is under him, Trejo one siminar, Sepulveda (8 siminars) La Bounty (30 hours and under one of his guys for 5 years) and 4 hours between Mike and Lee there in Maryland, Which I got more from than most all the others combined. I have also had a semenar with Tommy Chavies, great guy, also on my short list.

While seminars are a great source to learn from, I'd think that having spent more time with a given person, we'd be able to get a better feel for what they have to offer. I've talked with Clyde many times, asking questions about the various 'top guys' out there, and while he himself has said that Larry has spent the most time, he's also encouraged me to check these other people out and form my own opinion. The few that I have had the chance to see at seminars, again really didn't give me a ton of time to judge how much they really know.

IMO, what alot of it comes down to, is loyalty. A student, if they really like training under their inst. is going to defend them to the bitter end. Regardless of what anyone may think, IMO, I personally feel that everyone is going to have something to offer.

I really don't think that we'll ever come to the conclusion as to who is teaching the 'right' way. I will say though, that the people out there that are training with Doc, Palanzo, Planas, Mills, and the rest, are obviously happy with the training that they're getting. If they weren't I'd think that they'd be looking for another source.

Mike

 

[green meanie]

I think that unless someone can prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that someone is teaching the wrong way then I have no reason not to believe that ALL of these individuals who had the great honor and priviledge to train with GM Parker are all teaching the right way. :asian:

 

[kenpohack]

I'm not sure that you're qualifed to judge between Tatum, Planas, Kelly, Chapel, etc. insofar as their mastery of kenpo is concerned.

You can read an old magazine article and spin it anyway you want; that don't make it so.

Anyone with half a brain and vision correctable to 20/20 can judge between Tatum, Planas, Kelly, Chapel...They're all obviously very talented kenpoists. I'm hard pressed to say anything bad about any of them. They all also have distinctly different styles and modes of movement. I believe Brian and I are on the same wavelength when we say that Tatum seems to move closest to Ed Parker. That doesn't mean that any other senior is not skilled. It just means that Tatum is likely to have spent the most time on the mats with Parker considering his close proximity to Mr. Parker. None of the other seniors lived close enough to Mr. Parker to train with him as much as Mr. Tatum (maybe with the exception of Mr. Chapel, I only say that because I don't know where he hails from). All the aforementioned seniors are clearly masters of kenpo. I just believe that Mr. Tatum moves the closest to Mr. Parker and teaches an unaltered version of the system. Remember, this is alot like comparing a Corvette, a Viper and a GT40: I would drive any one of them in a heartbeat, despite having a preference.