So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?

[KenpoRonin]

Why did Larry Tatum and Ed Parker have a falling out? What was the reason?

I have heard many rumours, but it usually has to do with Business. I have heard many others. I have heard about sexual misconduct, but that is usually from people who use it to discredit him. One thing I will say for Tatum, I have never heard him say anything mean about anyone, even when he had every reason to and in a private coversation. Tatum would never make it as a rapper.

 

[Carol]

Both Ron Chapel and Tom Kelly were voted to be in the Journey but were not included for technical reasons. At least that is what Edmund Parker(jr) told me.

Jeff

For what it's worth, I was told the same from Mr. Conatser.

 

[Carol]

I have heard many rumours, but it usually has to do with Business. I have heard many others. I have heard about sexual misconduct, but that is usually from people who use it to discredit him. One thing I will say for Tatum, I have never heard him say anything mean about anyone, even when he had every reason to and in a private coversation. Tatum would never make it as a rapper.

Mr. Tatum was also getting to be well known in the Pasadena area among non-MA folks. He was very active with the police department and at town meetings, etc.He was also getting to be well known within the MA community. His close proximity to Mr. Parker (plus his knowledge) made him an easy pick for interviews. His good looks probably did not hurt his popularity. All stuff that really gets yer mojo working for breaking out with your own business...even if that was not the original intent.

Sometimes the chips fall the right way for good things to happen.

 

[Ray]

My claim has been that Tatum has more of the system than any other. I have made other statements, some opinions based on facts others are the evidence that I used to come to conclusions. I am not saying NO ONE ELSE HAS ANY INFORMATION.

I'm not sure that you're qualifed to judge between Tatum, Planas, Kelly, Chapel, etc. insofar as their mastery of kenpo is concerned.

You can read an old magazine article and spin it anyway you want; that don't make it so.

 

[KenpoRonin]

I'm not sure that you're qualifed to judge between Tatum, Planas, Kelly, Chapel, etc. insofar as their mastery of kenpo is concerned.

You can read an old magazine article and spin it anyway you want; that don't make it so.

I am not sure that you're qualified to judge whether or not I am qualifed to judge....

 

[evenflow1121]

Mike they all are. I mean so long as the student goes in and accomplishes his goals through the instructor. All those guys are teaching the correct system, to say that the correct system lies in a 24 technique curriculum (which I studied) or the 16 which someone else may have in my opinion is erroneous. The true system in my humble opinion lies in its mechanics and principles of motion. You may study techniques your entire life, and may know how to execute each technique in a classroom setting blind folded, while standing on one foot and with one hand touching your nose. Still you may just get into a fight out in the real world and not be able to execute that one technique, because the setting is different, but hey your movements as you blocked the attack and struck your assailant were based on the principles of motion you studied as a kenpoist and guess what, you took his *** down. So who is teaching the right system, all those guys they are all teaching it correctly, their approach may be different, but the basic principles are the same.

 

[KenpoRonin]

Mike they all are. I mean so long as the student goes in and accomplishes his goals through the instructor. All those guys are teaching the correct system, to say that the correct system lies in a 24 technique curriculum (which I studied) or the 16 which someone else may have in my opinion is erroneous. The true system in my humble opinion lies in its mechanics and principles of motion. You may study techniques your entire life, and may know how to execute each technique in a classroom setting blind folded, while standing on one foot and with one hand touching your nose. Still you may just get into a fight out in the real world and not be able to execute that one technique, because the setting is different, but hey your movements as you blocked the attack and struck your assailant were based on the principles of motion you studied as a kenpoist and guess what, you took his *** down. So who is teaching the right system, all those guys they are all teaching it correctly, their approach may be different, but the basic principles are the same.

I see all these instructors changing things. They take out Forms and Sets. The remove, alter, add or change techniques. At what point does all this change, make it no longer EPAK? If I don't teach certain techniques or the Yellow Belt? What if I change 20% of the techniques? Am I still teaching the system?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

As is yours. General consensus is often wrong.
Abe Lincoln was an extremely unpopular president in his time, yet we know him to be one of the (not the) best Presidents we ever had. WWII was very unpopular before we were attacked, but we went in because we were attacked, not because it was popular or the right thing to do. Jesus was killed for blasphemy by a large number of people… Stalin was a hero in the early twenties and thirties. And yes I am saying that general public are idiots. Your average IQ is 100. That is not a good score to have. 87 is borderline retardation.

"if a lot of people are saying the same thing and they don't know each other it just may be true" Or they can all be wrong. OJ had twelve let him off, Back Street Boys Sold millions of albums, and there are millions in Europe and the Middle East that think the USA is the great Satan.

As for people supporting arguements, I get private emails full of encouragement. They just choose not to post and these people have never met me either.

the "general consensus" was actually a device you used earlier when you said

Now these questions are subjective to a degree, but have generally accepted answers.

which is why I used it. So you disproved another one of your devices for argument. Bait, hook, throw it back.

I've you get PM's then these people also know how to give rep points so perhaps you're rep would be higher if that were the case. My opinion is that the bolded statement may not be true but may be smoke and mirrors.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I see all these instructors changing things. They take out Forms and Sets. The remove, alter, add or change techniques. At what point does all this change, make it no longer EPAK? If I don't teach certain techniques or the Yellow Belt? What if I change 20% of the techniques? Am I still teaching the system?

I actually agree with you here, if you change too much it's no longer EPAK. But is it still efective? that's what really matters. Not, did Parker give it his stamp of approval. I practice Ju Jitsu and the stuff works but Parker didn't have his hands on it.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I am not sure that you're qualified to judge whether or not I am qualifed to judge....

OK other than beeing a First Black from someone and then defecting to Clyde what are your qualifications? What are your experieces with the other seniors that makes you think what you think about Tatum by comparison. How much time have you spent on the mats with Planas, Palanzo, Mills, Chapel, Tom Kelly, Conatser, Tanaka, Cogliandro, Liles, Lerouz, Muhammed, Donnie Williams, Brian Hawkins, Velez, Sean Kelley, Speakman, Pick, Trejo, etc.

What are your experiences with any one from their camps. You yourself said earlier that you've spent limited time with Tatum but alot of time with Clyde. So you don't even have much first hand experience with Tatum self-admittedly unless you'd like to retract that statement too.

 

[Doc]

I actually agree with you here, if you change too much it's no longer EPAK. But is it still efective? that's what really matters. Not, did Parker give it his stamp of approval. I practice Ju Jitsu and the stuff works but Parker didn't have his hands on it.

Its important to remember James, that Parker only had ONE COMPLETED SYSTEM, and that was his conceptual commercial system based on motion. Everythng else was either defunct from his perspective, or a work in progress. Claims to teaching this 'system,' complete or not, is no claim to fame, considering its conceptual interpretive nature which allows and encourages personal interpretations and tailoring. Some will be good at it, and others, well ....

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

One thing I will say for Tatum, I have never heard him say anything mean about anyone, even when he had every reason to and in a private coversation....

perhaps we might follow this example then if we choose him as our martial arts icon??

Just a thought.

 

[KenpoRonin]

the "general consensus" was actually a device you used earlier when you said




which is why I used it. So you disproved another one of your devices for argument. Bait, hook, throw it back.

I've you get PM's then these people also know how to give rep points so perhaps you're rep would be higher if that were the case. My opinion is that the bolded statement may not be true but may be smoke and mirrors.

I had already detracted that statement, based on the "idiot factor". What I should have said is generally accepted among those knowledgeable on such subjects.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Its important to remember James, that Parker only had ONE COMPLETED SYSTEM, and that was his conceptual commercial system based on motion. Everythng else was either defunct from his perspective, or a work in progress. Claims to teaching this 'system,' complete or not, is no claim to fame, considering its conceptual interpretive nature which allows and encourages personal interpretations and tailoring. Some will be good at it, and others, well ....

Exactly Sir, which why I hang so little importance on what it's called when compared to if it works. The things you showed me and explained to me work. The things the Mills camp taught me work. The things the Planas Camp taught me work. The things the Tatum camp taught me work. I'm ready to hang my hat up on this one. By observing 1) that someone's every post is only on this topic and 2) all the snide remarks, 3) circle talk and 4) general lack of what should be common knowledge of kenpo history lets me know that there is an agenda here. I've just been having too much fun taking recent posts and cross-referencing them with past posts that are the direct opposite. And it amazes me that when I post nothing but the person's own words I get "nice spin on things" as an answer. Comical I tell ya.

P.S. Please tell Miguel that his "brothers" said hi.

 

[KenpoRonin]

OK other than beeing a First Black from someone and then defecting to Clyde what are your qualifications? What are your experieces with the other seniors that makes you think what you think about Tatum by comparison. How much time have you spent on the mats with Planas, Palanzo, Mills, Chapel, Tom Kelly, Conatser, Tanaka, Cogliandro, Liles, Lerouz, Muhammed, Donnie Williams, Brian Hawkins, Velez, Sean Kelley, Speakman, Pick, Trejo, etc.

What are your experiences with any one from their camps. You yourself said earlier that you've spent limited time with Tatum but alot of time with Clyde. So you don't even have much first hand experience with Tatum self-admittedly unless you'd like to retract that statement too.

Planas (Two siminars) Palanzo 0, Mills(0 but had an instructor who was under him for several years), Chapel 0, Tom Kelly (1 siminar and was the first time I saw the majic of Kenpo), Conatser (0 but had instructor who spent several years under him), Tanaka0, Cogliandro 0, Liles 0, Lerouz 0, Muhammed 0, Donnie Williams 0 , Brian Hawkins0 , Velez 0, Sean Kelley (one hour), Speakman (3 siminars), Pick 0 but have a close friend who is under him, Trejo one siminar, Sepulveda (8 siminars) La Bounty (30 hours and under one of his guys for 5 years) and 4 hours between Mike and Lee there in Maryland, Which I got more from than most all the others combined. I have also had a semenar with Tommy Chavies, great guy, also on my short list.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Planas (Two siminars) Palanzo 0, Mills(0 but had an instructor who was under him for several years), Chapel 0, Tom Kelly (1 siminar and was the first time I saw the majic of Kenpo), Conatser (0 but had instructor who spent several years under him), Tanaka0, Cogliandro 0, Liles 0, Lerouz 0, Muhammed 0, Donnie Williams 0 , Brian Hawkins0 , Velez 0, Sean Kelley (one hour), Speakman (3 siminars), Pick 0 but have a close friend who is under him, Trejo one siminar, Sepulveda (8 siminars) La Bounty (30 hours and under one of his guys for 5 years) and 4 hours between Mike and Lee there in Maryland, Which I got more from than most all the others combined. I have also had a semenar with Tommy Chavies, great guy, also on my short list.

Man that's a lot of zeros and one time deals for proclaiming someone as THE best. That's my only point.

 

[KenpoRonin]

Man that's a lot of zeros and one time deals for proclaiming someone as THE best. That's my only point.

Well Many of these people I have seen at camps, but they choose not to teach, so what can I say, if they choose not to teach, to share there knowledge, how can I consider them? There are many others I didn't put, I forget all who I have seen, many are not very memorable.

 

[KenpoRonin]

Man that's a lot of zeros and one time deals for proclaiming someone as THE best. That's my only point.

Ok wait I am going to completely change everything, I retract it all... I know I am going to get a lot of grief for this, but to be true to myself I am going to come forth. Tatum is not the most knowledgeable man in Kenpo. It is this Man.http://www.arnis.org/home_study/home_study.htm

He has come up with no wait I will use his words...

These manuals - over 1800 pages - constitute the most authoritative written instructions ever written on American Kenpo Karate. Every technique, from yellow belt to 3rd degree black belt, is described in detail. These manuals cover all of the concepts, principles and theories utilized in each of the self defense techniques. A favorite for most American Kenpo Instructors - a must for all Kenpo libraries.

No wait there is more


This course is the first complete American Kenpo Home Study Course that available on the the world. This course is designed to be simple enough for beginners to learn from, but intense enough for instructors to enhance their learning. This is the course that so many have attempted to duplicate. This course is used by students and instructors throughout the world. This program teaches all of the concepts, principles and theories utilized in all of the self defense techniques, forms and sets. There is a great deal of background and history included with the instruction of the self defense techniques. This course includes 27 video tapes covering all of the concept, principles, theories, basics in order to completely understand the self-defense material, forms and sets required for belt advancement. A 600 page manual is also included to act as a guide and workbook for the students. Students involved in this home study course get guidance, free rank testing and certification from the American Kenpo Legacy Association Headquarters.

How can you criticize me for touting Tatum when you claim to have the most authoritative system in the world! Talk about a hypocrite!!

 

[Doc]

In the world of business, when someone is attempting to sell you something, this 'elogation of the facts' are subject to interpretation and are called 'puffery.' Such is the way of statements made in magazines and articles or even internet web sites for publicity, noteriety, and commercialism expressly with the intent to "sell something.' Words and phrases like; the greatest, biggest, best, fastest, longest lasting, most extensive, unequaled and yes even protegé, etc are banded about with no more assurance of absolute fact than any other saleman hawking goods. Mr. Parker was the ultimate martial arts salesman of the ultimate commercial martial arts system and others including, your personal martial arts savior have simply followed his lead. Some do however, with much more class than others. Some have nothing to sell at all. caveat emptor.

 

[evenflow1121]

I see all these instructors changing things. They take out Forms and Sets. The remove, alter, add or change techniques. At what point does all this change, make it no longer EPAK? If I don't teach certain techniques or the Yellow Belt? What if I change 20% of the techniques? Am I still teaching the system?

If you are still teaching the mechanics and movements, the principles of Kenpo then I say yes. Sure it may not be orthodox, and by that I mean it may not be what most of us are used to seeing today, but the principles would still be there. I may be wrong and if I am I am sure people will correct me, and by this I dont mean that the techniques are less important, they are important, but in my opinion the foundation of kenpo is not the techniques, but the principles behind them.