So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I got to say you have a talent for picking apart someone's argument by picking and choosing a segments of my argument and attacking that part. Completely ignoring the body of my argument or when you can’t combat my argument you simply say that I am being disrespectful. Thought is much like martial arts, one will not grow unless someone is willing to challenge your thought, push your thought into uncomfortable areas. Until you have put your thoughts into a firing squad and have people attack them, can you know what you know has validity.

I noticed that KenpoDoc posted a series of individuals who were the best at specifics. No one questioned or commented on a single word he said. How interesting. I only listed one person; he lists 4 claims, no remarks. I would be willing to bet that is because he put Chapel on there and he only validates your own ideas about Chapel.

Actually if you just said "Tatum is ONE of the best" I'd wholeheartedly agree with you as well. All of the snide remarks and the "Tatum is THE greatest" stuff is the issue. Also posting the same article with 3 names repeatedly and disregarding...

1) The "Big Fallout" between Mr. Parker and Mr. Tatum.

2) The other two names on that list.

3) the others named as proteges after Tatum's "leaving"

....doesn't help your "argument"

No one is "combating" your argument it's dismantling itself by your own posted contraditions and leaving out "key" pieces of the history that refute your claim. Your opinon cannot be debated. But the partial facts you present and then alter with your subjective thoughts can. NO ONE'S opinion can be presented as fact, period.

Forgive me for "picking apart" your arguments. It's not personal, it's just what I do from working with/within Law Enforcement, Private Sector Security and Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences. Statements that A) contradict themselves, B) have "logical jumps" or "sequencial gaps" and C) are pure speculation stand out to me in my lines of work and areas of study.

My Ideas about Chapel are the following..

1) Moves cleanly, 2) open and approachable, 3) displays knowledge that few others have (it's been argued that NO others have)

My ideas about Tatum are as follows..

1) Moves cleanly (it has been argued even cleaner than Mr. Parker), 2) open and approachable, 3) displays knowledge that few others have.

Same ideas but with slight differences which is why I call them both SOME of the best.

Cool stuff (sincerely) you posted about thought and martial arts. So now that so many have challenged your thoughts on supremacy, successors, logic, history, seniority, etc. Do you think "what you know has validity" as you put it?

P.S. Also as you highlighted youself the article mentions "children lost as successors" but Mr. Parker specfically used the word protege which has a much different meaning. A protege can become a successor but is not one. And there were again at least 3 at that given time who knows what happened in the next 11 years.

P.P.S. Two of my most respected martial artists are Mike Lambert and Lee Epperson whom I consider a great friend. Both are with LTKKA. In other words, it has nothing to do with your "line" or my thoughts of Mr. Tatum. Just the claim of Tatum's supremacy in the kenpo realm.

 

[Bode]

I noticed that KenpoDoc posted a series of individuals who were the best at specifics. No one questioned or commented on a single word he said. How interesting. I only listed one person; he lists 4 claims, no remarks. I would be willing to bet that is because he put Chapel on there and he only validates your own ideas about Chapel.

KenpoDoc started by saying "my uneducated oppinion"....

When you began in this thread your statements read as if you are making a factual statement.

Two very different ways of presenting yourself, especially on a forum where you haven't established your character. It's as if you butted into a conversation at a party without introducing yourself and proceeded to make bold statements of fact. I personally don't care either way. I train. I have my teacher. That's it. But as a former foot in mouth person, I am trying to help you see why people jumped on your statements. Take it for what it's worth....

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Yea and he was the only one to teach on Parkers behalf for years later. It is not likely that changed one or two years later. I would bet that didn't change until their falling out in or around 87.

This is just plain false by the way.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

KenpoDoc started by saying "my uneducated oppinion"....

When you began in this thread your statements read as if you are making a factual statement.

Two very different ways of presenting yourself, especially on a forum where you haven't established your character. It's as if you butted into a conversation at a party without introducing yourself and proceeded to make bold statements of fact. I personally don't care either way. I train. I have my teacher. That's it. But as a former foot in mouth person, I am trying to help you see why people jumped on your statements. Take it for what it's worth....

Good point, Bode. I just hope the reply isn't something like "you're just saying that because you're one of Chapel's"

 

[KenpoRonin]

Really? The suppose you tell me what all the Black Belts that were members of the IKKA were doing? Many people taught "on "MR. "Parker's behalf", even after Mr. Tatum left the organization. I have interacted with many Seniors in a variety of ways, and what I have learned from them is this, if you think there is only one way to do anything, then you have learned nothing. I normally stay out of these kinds of threads, because I see them as pointless. Try describing the color blue to a blind man, sam ting. Here is the reality, your arguments are circular and counter productive. No one has said anything bad about Mr. Tatum, or Clyde. Have you heard Mr. Tatum say anything of the things you claim? If he was the one true heir, why did he not try to claim the throne? I am willing to bet it is because he is happy with what he is doing. If he wanted the throne, he would not have left the IKKA. One last point, those that I have talked to that were close to Mr. Parker, are still teaching on his behalf.

type error Travel on not teach on. Sorry

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Really? The suppose you tell me what all the Black Belts that were members of the IKKA were doing? Many people taught "on "MR. "Parker's behalf", even after Mr. Tatum left the organization. I have interacted with many Seniors in a variety of ways, and what I have learned from them is this, if you think there is only one way to do anything, then you have learned nothing. I normally stay out of these kinds of threads, because I see them as pointless. Try describing the color blue to a blind man, sam ting. Here is the reality, your arguments are circular and counter productive. No one has said anything bad about Mr. Tatum, or Clyde. Have you heard Mr. Tatum say anything of the things you claim? If he was the one true heir, why did he not try to claim the throne? I am willing to bet it is because he is happy with what he is doing. If he wanted the throne, he would not have left the IKKA. One last point, those that I have talked to that were close to Mr. Parker, are still teaching on his behalf.

Preach Brother. Amen.

 

[KenpoRonin]

Hmmm. Funny you should bring up the "falling out." Maybe Mr. Parker changed his mind about Mr. Tatum?

I'm sure that he changed his mind about Tatum, I pretty sure though he didn't use his MIB mind erase tool and take away what he had taught him.

 

[KenpoRonin]

Actually if you just said "Tatum is ONE of the best" I'd wholeheartedly agree with you as well. All of the snide remarks and the "Tatum is THE greatest" stuff is the issue. Also posting the same article with 3 names repeatedly and disregarding...

1) The "Big Fallout" between Mr. Parker and Mr. Tatum.

2) The other two names on that list.

3) the others named as proteges after Tatum's "leaving"

....doesn't help your "argument"

No one is "combating" your argument it's dismantling itself by your own posted contraditions and leaving out "key" pieces of the history that refute your claim. Your opinon cannot be debated. But the partial facts you present and then alter with your subjective thoughts can. NO ONE'S opinion can be presented as fact, period.

Forgive me for "picking apart" your arguments. It's not personal, it's just what I do from working with/within Law Enforcement, Private Sector Security and Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences. Statements that A) contradict themselves, B) have "logical jumps" or "sequencial gaps" and C) are pure speculation stand out to me in my lines of work and areas of study.

My Ideas about Chapel are the following..

1) Moves cleanly, 2) open and approachable, 3) displays knowledge that few others have (it's been argued that NO others have)

My ideas about Tatum are as follows..

1) Moves cleanly (it has been argued even cleaner than Mr. Parker), 2) open and approachable, 3) displays knowledge that few others have.

Same ideas but with slight differences which is why I call them both SOME of the best.

P.S. Also as you highlighted youself the article mentions "children lost as successors" but Mr. Parker specfically used the word protege which has a much different meaning. A protege can become a successor but is not one. And there were again at least 3 at that given time who knows what happened in the next 11 years.

P.P.S. Two of my most respected martial artists are Mike Lambert and Lee Epperson whom I consider a great friend. Both are with LTKKA. In other words, it has nothing to do with your "line" or my thoughts of Mr. Tatum. Just the claim of Tatum's supremacy in the kenpo realm.

Ok I said there is one person with more of the system than the rest. I offer that it is Tatum. I offer some evidence for my claim. YOU just made a claim for Chapel being one of the best, I don't the man but other than him I don't see anyone else touting him. I have the Journey, he really isn't mentioned. Trajo mentions him referring one of his matches and that is usually what I hear. People say the saw him around. Where is your evidence?

I will agree that Mike and Lee are great Kenpoist and very much enjoy the time on the mat I have shared with them. They are two on my short list of people who I would train under.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I'm sure that he changed his mind about Tatum, I pretty sure though he didn't use his MIB mind erase tool and take away what he had taught him.

So is it the knowledge that Mr. Parker gave or is it what Mr. Parker thought that matters?

1) Mr. parker gave the same knowledge to alot of people (at least 3 if we stick with the article circa 1979).

2) Your main "hard evidence" to this point has been "Mr. Parker said this about Mr. Tatum! Mr. Parker said he was the successor! Mr. Parker said he was the Key Protege!" Now someone mentioned that Mr. Parker may have retracted those sentiments and you disregard it with the above quoted comment. That again negates much of what you've said already. It's another circular, self-defeating statement.

Let's just leave it at "Mr. Hoff thinks that Mr. Tatum is the greatest Martial Artist alive". No one can ever dispute solely what you think. And if Mr. Hoff thought that Mr. Tatum was ONE of the greatest martial artists alive this whole board would "validate" your thoughts.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Ok I said there is one person with more of the system than the rest. I offer that it is Tatum. I offer some evidence for my claim. YOU just made a claim for Chapel being one of the best, I don't the man but other than him I don't see anyone else touting him. I have the Journey, he really isn't mentioned. Trajo mentions him referring one of his matches and that is usually what I hear. People say the saw him around. Where is your evidence?

I will agree that Mike and Lee are great Kenpoist and very much enjoy the time on the mat I have shared with them. They are two on my short list of people who I would train under.

My evidence? look at Chapel's pictures in the infinite insights series (in which Mr. Parker was the author and chose who he wanted to include in his own instructional books) and then find Mr. Tatum's pictures there.

Next question?

P.S. I gather that you just don't like Mr. Chapel because no one has said ANYTHING negative about Mr. Tatum but you keep "questioning" Mr. Chapel.

I also noticed that you ignored the post where I said "you would get my vote" for being a good kenpoist because you train with Clyde. Perhaps it wasn't convienent to admit I complimented you despite disagreeing with your viewpoints?

 

[Kenpodoc]

Ok I said there is one person with more of the system than the rest. I offer that it is Tatum. I offer some evidence for my claim. YOU just made a claim for Chapel being one of the best, I don't the man but other than him I don't see anyone else touting him. I have the Journey, he really isn't mentioned. Trajo mentions him referring one of his matches and that is usually what I hear. People say the saw him around. Where is your evidence?

I will agree that Mike and Lee are great Kenpoist and very much enjoy the time on the mat I have shared with them. They are two on my short list of people who I would train under.

Both Ron Chapel and Tom Kelly were voted to be in the Journey but were not included for technical reasons. At least that is what Edmund Parker(jr) told me.

Jeff

 

[KenpoRonin]

So is it the knowledge that Mr. Parker gave or is it what Mr. Parker thought that matters?

1) Mr. parker gave the same knowledge to alot of people (at least 3 if we stick with the article circa 1979).

2) Your main "hard evidence" to this point has been "Mr. Parker said this about Mr. Tatum! Mr. Parker said he was the successor! Mr. Parker said he was the Key Protege!" Now someone mentioned that Mr. Parker may have retracted those sentiments and you disregard it with the above quoted comment. That again negates much of what you've said already. It's another circular, self-defeating statement.

Let's just leave it at "Mr. Hoff thinks that Mr. Tatum is the greatest Martial Artist alive". No one can ever dispute solely what you think. And if Mr. Hoff thought that Mr. Tatum was ONE of the greatest martial artists alive this whole board would "validate" your thoughts.

Spinning can be fun, so can sarcasm. My claim has been that Tatum has more of the system than any other. I have made other statements, some opinions based on facts others are the evidence that I used to come to conclusions. I am not saying NO ONE ELSE HAS ANY INFORMATION.

If Harvard has the best business school in the country, that doesn’t mean you can’t go to North Western. You still have bragging rights. You just didn’t graduate from “The Best” hell you could have gotten C’s at Harvard and another person got A’s at NW. Of course if you go to UCSB, you really have no right bragging where you went. Or for that Matter UNLV.

 

[KenpoRonin]

I also noticed that you ignored the post where I said "you would get my vote" for being a good kenpoist because you train with Clyde. Perhaps it wasn't convienent to admit I complimented you despite disagreeing with your viewpoints?

Sorry, just when you constantly are being slam and given a token complament, you tend to ignore it or miss it.

Sincerly Thanks though

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Sorry, just when you constantly are being slam and given a token complament, you tend to ignore it or miss it.

Sincerly Thanks though

I'm honestly not slamming you. Your argument is just flawed. That's it. no personal bias, no agendas, no ill-will. You just are not presenting a logical argument and are contradicting yourself alot. And I'm not the only one saying that. It appears to be a rather general consensus unless what you said about the general public is truly what you believe(the part about them being idiots).

there's an old philosophy that goes "if a lot of people are saying the same thing and they don't know each other it just may be true" Alot of people on this board are telling you the same things I am, and most of them, save one, have never met me.

Food for thought.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Of course if you go to UCSB, you really have no right bragging where you went. Or for that Matter UNLV.

Yes, you do have bragging rights as the majority of the popualtion still does not possess a degree of any kind. And a degree is an achievement which entails bragging rights. But that's my opinon as there is no standard for bragging rights

 

[KenpoRonin]

I'm honestly not slamming you. Your argument is just flawed. That's it. no personal bias, no agendas, no ill-will. You just are not presenting a logical argument and are contradicting yourself alot. And I'm not the only one saying that. It appears to be a rather general consensus unless what you said about the general public is truly what you believe(the part about them being idiots).

there's an old philosophy that goes "if a lot of people are saying the same thing and they don't know each other it just may be true" Alot of people on this board are telling you the same things I am, and most of them save one Have never met me.

Food for thought.

As is yours. General consensus is often wrong.
Abe Lincoln was an extremely unpopular president in his time, yet we know him to be one of the (not the) best Presidents we ever had. WWII was very unpopular before we were attacked, but we went in because we were attacked, not because it was popular or the right thing to do. Jesus was killed for blasphemy by a large number of people… Stalin was a hero in the early twenties and thirties. And yes I am saying that general public are idiots. Your average IQ is 100. That is not a good score to have. 87 is borderline retardation.

"if a lot of people are saying the same thing and they don't know each other it just may be true" Or they can all be wrong. OJ had twelve let him off, Back Street Boys Sold millions of albums, and there are millions in Europe and the Middle East that think the USA is the great Satan.

As for people supporting arguements, I get private emails full of encouragement. They just choose not to post and these people have never met me either.

 

[Doc]

Yes, you do have bragging rights as the majority of the popualtion still does not possess a degree of any kind. And a degree is an achievement which entails bragging rights. But that's my opinon as there is no standard for bragging rights

Consider the sources. Clearly this is a case of 'troll by proxies,' and the only reason my name ws brought into it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I suggest you let them have it, but we also know where it comes from, so as I began with, "consider the source." Then you'll recognize it's all about pulling the chain, and making sense is clearly not the purpose. The only reason I responded initially is the intentional use of my name, and to place things in perspective. But if you understand the source, its all about discrediting, not crediting, nor the content. Letem' be please.

 

[KenpoRonin]

Consider the sources. Clearly this is a case of 'troll by proxies,' and the only reason my name ws brought into it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I suggest you let them have it, but we also know where it comes from, so as I began with, "consider the source." Then you'll recognize it's all about pulling the chain, and making sense is clearly not the purpose. The only reason I responded initially is the intentional use of my name, and to place things in perspective. But if you understand the source, its all about discrediting, not crediting, nor the content. Letem' be please.

What are you talking about? Your name was not mentioned here. He was responding to me putting myself down for only getting a degree from UNLV.

 

[hongkongfooey]

Why did Larry Tatum and Ed Parker have a falling out? What was the reason?

 

[Carol]

None taken. I totally agree with what you said. Parker didn't want just one person to have the information, but he wanted loyal people to have the information.

Cool.

There is then the question of who were the loyal people who also had enough time to spend with Parker on the mats. I am talking about hours of mat time. I know from personal experience that my growth has slowed because I chose instructor that is not in the same town as me.

That's a good question and one that I'm not well versed enough to answer. Who would have had enough time to spend with Mr. Parker, along with how they learned/processed the information, and how much time was spent teaching his student new material they didn't know vs. taking what his student did know and refining it further, why the student was being taught what they were when they were.

There is something about spending time with your instructor on a daily basis as apposed to a few times a year

I'd say agreed...perhaps I should say I'll take your word for it. That is one of the many challenges, is it not? Migrating to where instead of maximizing your growth in regular class with lots of attention, you are trying to maximize your growth on your own. It does not sound easy