So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Now there is a PPV

yeah, probably better than the last UFC. They should have called that one UFC 61: All Snores and No Smores.

 

[Andrew Green]

doh! ok you got me....and I guess even 'who's teaching *an* effective system' is just as subjective.

Yup, unless you can specify "effective under what criteria" and test that claim, "effective" is not very meaningful.

 

[Carol]

True that effective is effective. However as soon as you add the modifier "most" it's open to the same debate again.

What's the "most" effective a head kick or choke? They both put the other guy to sleep. The kick is quicker but not guaranteed when it hits. The choke is slower but once its set going out is guaranteed.

What's the "most" effective a head kick or a choke? Try to get a kickboxer and Ju Jitsu gu to agree on that.

What is "most effective" for a person...

....that is a soldier depending on their MA skills for their very survival?

...that sees Kenpo as career salvation and has designs of being a hotshot themselves?

...that sees reputable fighting skills as their life's greatest achievement?

...whose mental game outpaces their physical game?

...for a desk jockey that has one career and doesn't need another one?

...for parents and children that train together?

Not all fighters are alike. I think "effective" depends on the goals and the student, and is as hard to fefine as "correct".

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

What is "most effective" for a person...

....that is a soldier depending on their MA skills for their very survival?

...that sees Kenpo as career salvation and has designs of being a hotshot themselves?

...that sees reputable fighting skills as their life's greatest achievement?

...whose mental game outpaces their physical game?

...for a desk jockey that has one career and doesn't need another one?

...for parents and children that train together?

Not all fighters are alike. I think "effective" depends on the goals and the student, and is as hard to fefine as "correct".

You know what? I've been reading alot of your posts lately and I must say .......................................................................................................... There you go with that making sense thing again. How dare you! LOL.

 

[John Bishop]

Just a suggestion, from a moderators viewpoint. These types of discussions are always going to bring out some strong feelings on both sides of the debate.
But there is a wealth of good information coming out of this thread. And even though one might feel totally justified to post a vague insult or snide remark here and there, it does nothing to contribute to the discussion. In fact it hinders the discussion when knowledgeble people cease to participate.
There are many senior kenpo stylists who read these discussions, and only a few who participate. Many of the one's that don't participate are turned off by the petty bickering that is sometimes a part of all forum discussions. Some also take the attitude of "I don't need to have some 20 something shodan questioning everything I say". And whether you think that's an elitist attitude to take or not, they put in the time, paid their dues, and earned the right to have that opinion.
Having been around people like SGM Parker, Sijo Emperado, and many seniors of other systems, I was always impressed with the fact that they always treated others with respect and politness (at least in public).
So my suggestion is, hear everyone out. If you think what they're saying is total B.S., then present a intelligent response. Control your need to make a sarcastic comeback. There might be a few pearls of wisdom in a huge pile of empty shells. But you won't find them if you don't examine every shell.

 

[KenpoRonin]

I go away for a day and this forum goes to crap. "that's my opinion"...

For the record this is what I said, not back peddling, clarification.

1. There is one person who has More of the system than any other person. That does not mean all of the system or no other person has a lot of or most of the system. Ergo no two people are exactly alike. There may be one more skilled in a particular area over this person who has more of the whole complete system.
2. There may be individuals with more information which was accumulated from other systems, but may not fit well with Kenpo.
3. Ed Parker gave more information to certain individuals than he did to others, based on trust, not seniority.

Notice I have not said anyone in particular, that is because I am not making any claim as fact for any one individual, but that there is always one better than the rest.


For instance who was the best basketball player of all time?


Who is the best rock band of all time?


Who is the best cyclist of all time?


Who is the greatest composer of all time?


Now these questions are subjective to a degree, but have generally accepted answers.


I only later stated that Tatum was who I BELIEVED to be the heir-apparent to the system.


As for the claim of hard evidence this is what I said about that


"As for your comment on personal experiences, juries often will take the account of eye witnesses over DNA. So go ahead and believe opinions laid out as facts I still look at the hard evidence" That was a response to someone elses post.




So quit putting words in my mouth.

 

[Flying Crane]

KenpoRonin,

You certainly have a right to your opinion, and you have a right to stick to your guns and defend your opinion and debate those who disagree.

But you have a tendency to be somewhat confrontational in how you post. Examples:

1. "stick that in your pipe and smoke it"

2. "so quit putting words in my mouth", stated after a somewhat terse sounding (at least to me) post.

My suggestion is that you just ease back with your delivery. Postings that come across as confrontational (even if you didn't mean them to be) are not going to be well received and will not earn you respect. Re-read what you write before you post your messages. Consider how your tone might be taken. That's all.

I don't know anything about Mr. Tatum. It's good to see someone who believes so strongly in his lineage. I personally don't have that strong a connection in my own kenpo and maybe that is to my detriment. But delivery is key when putting forth your opinion.

Just a friendly suggestion. Take it as you will.

 

[KenpoRonin]

KenpoRonin,

You certainly have a right to your opinion, and you have a right to stick to your guns and defend your opinion and debate those who disagree.

But you have a tendency to be somewhat confrontational in how you post. Examples:

1. "stick that in your pipe and smoke it"

2. "so quit putting words in my mouth", stated after a somewhat terse sounding (at least to me) post.

My suggestion is that you just ease back with your delivery. Postings that come across as confrontational (even if you didn't mean them to be) are not going to be well received and will not earn you respect. Re-read what you write before you post your messages. Consider how your tone might be taken. That's all.

I don't know anything about Mr. Tatum. It's good to see someone who believes so strongly in his lineage. I personally don't have that strong a connection in my own kenpo and maybe that is to my detriment. But delivery is key when putting forth your opinion.

Just a friendly suggestion. Take it as you will.

I realize that my tone may be harsh, but when you are sparing 6 on 1 you can't always hit with kid gloves.

Though I will say that you are the most open minded person on this forum.

Quick question the picture, is that from Blade Runner?

 

[Flying Crane]

I realize that my tone may be harsh, but when you are sparing 6 on 1 you can't always hit with kid gloves.

Though I will say that you are the most open minded person on this forum.

Quick question the picture, is that from Blade Runner?

I understand you may feel outgunned and under attack. But for peace to prevail, someone has to make the decision to stop fighting even if it means giving up an opportunity to get even.

Yup, Leon from Bladerunner. Most people don't get that. Congrats!

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

There is one person who has More of the system than any other person. That does not mean all of the system or no other person has a lot of or most of the system. Ergo no two people are exactly alike. There may be one more skilled in a particular area over this person who has more of the whole complete system.

Tatum was the Key guy for how long. No one before him had all the information and how many after him were able to get it?

I only later stated that Tatum was who I BELIEVED to be the heir-apparent to the system.

As for the claim of hard evidence this is what I said about that

"As for your comment on personal experiences, juries often will take the account of eye witnesses over DNA. So go ahead and believe opinions laid out as facts I still look at the hard evidence" That was a response to someone elses post.

As for my ignorance, I do have hard evidence that I use to make my claims, as I had said in a previous post. But those who respond would rather attack me rather than ask what evidence I have or am referring to. He did declare a successor. One of my Students has an issue of Black Belt where Parker named Tatum as his successor.

Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. Who cares Judas was with Jesus before Paul, but well I think we all know how that bit of history turned out. Now I am not claiming Chapel is a traitor to Parker, just showing the fallacy of that argument.

Ok I am not senior but I believe this guy is more Senior than almost all of you. He knows the history and this is what he had to say.

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. There were only three mentioned to been getting all of it. You were not one of them, sir.

I never said that Tatum had all the system.

Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. Who cares....

I have not offered any personal attacks on any senior.

so quit putting words in my mouth

So having read all of what you posted, at what point were there words put into your mouth, and at what point did you not backpedal? You have a different opinion fine. But don't act like you didn't post certain things and try to play the victim. Some of us are actually reading the thread and paying attention.

:whip:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

So having read all of what you posted, at what point were there words put into your mouth, and at what point did you not backpedal? You have a different opinion fine. But don't act like you didn't post certain things and try to play the victim. Some of us are actually reading the thread and paying attention.

:whip:

Ayup.

 

[jazkiljok]

I go away for a day and this forum goes to crap. "that's my opinion"...

For the record this is what I said, not back peddling, clarification.

1. There is one person who has More of the system than any other person. That does not mean all of the system or no other person has a lot of or most of the system. Ergo no two people are exactly alike. There may be one more skilled in a particular area over this person who has more of the whole complete system.

1. 
   
   lost me on that one.
   
   

   There may be individuals with more information which was accumulated from other systems, but may not fit well with Kenpo.

   or it does fit well...point being?
   
   

   [*] Ed Parker gave more information to certain individuals than he did to others, based on trust, not seniority.

   
   and what does that portend?
   
   

   I Notice I have not said anyone in particular, that is because I am not making any claim as fact for any one individual, but that there is always one better than the rest.

   
   better at what exactly?
   
   
   

   For instance who was the best basketball player of all time?

   
   no doubt, Bill Russell.
   
   
   

   Who is the best rock band of all time?

   
   of course, the Clash... go on
   
   
   

   Who is the best cyclist of all time?

   
   Eddy Merckx
   
   
   

   Who is the greatest composer of all time?

   
   Bach, but do you contemporary bastards care anymore...:idunno:
   
   
   

   Now these questions are subjective to a degree, but have generally accepted answers.

   
   just a degree? ... lucky we have the general public as the final say in such matters.
   
   

   I only later stated that Tatum was who I BELIEVED to be the heir-apparent to the system.

   
   so you have and time for everyone to move on...
   
   

   As for the claim of hard evidence this is what I said about that
   
   
   "As for your comment on personal experiences, juries often will take the account of eye witnesses over DNA. So go ahead and believe opinions laid out as facts I still look at the hard evidence" That was a response to someone elses post.

   
   yeah- who you going to believe?... me or your lying eyes!?
   
   
   

   So quit putting words in my mouth.

   
   word to that.

 

[Kenpodoc]

My uneducated opinion.

1. The senior who knows the Parker system of the early '60's best - either Al Tracy or Chuck Sullivan.

2. The senior who knows the commercial system as outlined in the '70s and subtly modified thereafter - Huk Planas.

3. The senior who likely knows the most about Mr. Parkers non-commercial approach to an american version of the chinese Martial Arts - Ron Chapel.

4. The senior with the most direct effect on my personal journey in american Kenpo - Lee Wedlake.

5. The senior with the students most willing to trash the abilities of everyone except the one true Messiah - Larry Tatum. (I find this odd as he is clearly personally very talented and should need no external validation. I've not met him personally but he was very polite and respectful in our one phone conversation. He was neither at the center of the development of the commercial Kenpo Model nor in the last group studying with the Master. He does have students such as Clyde who are willing to personally test their skills in personal confrontation but so do other seniors, they just spend less time bragging about it. [Ron Chapel and Steve LaBounty have I believe both had opportunity to test their Kenpo in the far less forgiving arena of Law enforcement.]) I respect Mr. Tatum's abilities as a Martial Artist and an Instructor but now wonder why his students feel it necessary to trumpet their version as the one true way and brusquely demean everyone else.

KenpRonin, I'm glad you have found your martial Arts Messiah. If you want to prove that he teaches the one true way then i would suggest that rather than merely demean others choices, go to the Techniques area and convince us that your version is better than the others. Better yet go to seminars and be such a shining light of quality Kenpo that others choose to seek your way.

Respectfully submitted,

Jeff

 

[kevin kilroe]

How about posting some videos in the Members in Motion section?

 

[hongkongfooey]

Good post KenpoDoc!

 

[jaybacca72]

great post kenpodoc,you hit the nail right on the head. many people forget who taught tatum while mr.parker was travelling around teaching others promoting kenpo and mr.trejo was also trained by this person (or heavily influenced) so i will let you guess? except for the people that were there they already know.
later
jay arnold

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

great post kenpodoc,you hit the nail right on the head. many people forget who taught tatum while mr.parker was travelling around teaching others promoting kenpo and mr.trejo was also trained by this person (or heavily influenced) so i will let you guess? except for the people that were there they already know.
later
jay arnold

Who is Richard 'Huk' Planas for $1000, but this is always 'forgotten'

 

[James Kovacich]

And therein lies the controversy.

Personally, I would rather really own about 1/2 dozen sparring combinations, 1/2 dozen kick-boxing combos, about 1/2 of the kenpo technique body, a handful of throws, and some wrasslin'. And I mean OWN it. I can still explore and discover new things in simple basics that I'd never seen before.
So now, instead of tromping off to practice the complete system, I'm tromping off to re-evaluate shoulder muscle dynamics in kenpo blocks & strikes. I gots no business burning more data deeper into memory if my mechanics need improving. And my mechanics ALWAYS need improving.


Dave

Thats a good post that could be said of any system! People probably think I'm being an *** when I pick apart techniques or training methods but greatness in a little goes much farther than good in alot. Thank you my friend.

 

[KenpoRonin]

So having read all of what you posted, at what point were there words put into your mouth, and at what point did you not backpedal? You have a different opinion fine. But don't act like you didn't post certain things and try to play the victim. Some of us are actually reading the thread and paying attention.

:whip:

How very clever of you.

There is one person who has More of the system than any other person. That does not mean all of the system or no other person has a lot of or most of the system. Ergo no two people are exactly alike. There may be one more skilled in a particular area over this person who has more of the whole complete system.

No one before him had all the information and how many after him were able to get it?

The second post was in reference to what Parker said about him, I was simply paraphrasing Parker.

As for the claim of hard evidence this is what I said about that

As for my ignorance, I do have hard evidence that I use to make my claims, as I had said in a previous post. But those who respond would rather attack me rather than ask what evidence I have or am referring to. He did declare a successor. One of my Students has an issue of Black Belt where Parker named Tatum as his successor.

This post was in refernce to my previous post, but I did provide evidence of Parker Claiming Tatum as the Key guy and likely heir.

Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. Who cares Judas was with Jesus before Paul, but well I think we all know how that bit of history turned out. Now I am not claiming Chapel is a traitor to Parker, just showing the fallacy of that argument.

Ok I am not senior but I believe this guy is more Senior than almost all of you. He knows the history and this is what he had to say.

Those are two separate points, though both have to do with history. Chapel’s claim about being more senior has to do with being more legit or more… something. Since no one would answer the question of that post rather attacked me for making it. I will assume that he himself superior in some way. I offer someone to give me another plausible reason if I am wrong. Second I offered up Tracy as only someone who being on the sidelines the whole time as a non-partisan historical perspective. Nice try though

Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. Who cares....

I have not offered any personal attacks on any senior.

You consider that a personal attack. How very sensitive you must be, maybe martial arts isn’t your field, maybe something like the peace corp. I was simply proving error in his argument.

Nice try.

 

[HKphooey]

1. I will develop myself in a positive manner and avoid anything that would reduce my mental growth or my physical health.
2. I will develop self discipline in order to bring out the best in myself and others.
3. I will use the art of Kenpo constructively and defensively to help myself and my fellow man and never to be abusive or offensive.
4. I will live by the principles of black belt: modesty, integrity, perseverance, self-control and indomitable spirit.