So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?

[Doc]

The sad part is I pledged a fraternity (actually we call it a social fellowship) and the names given to me were

1) Sho'Nuff

and

2) Blackie Chan

From a annointed "ChiNegro," I feel your pain.

 

[green meanie]

I felt this was fitting for this thread.

http://www.badmovies.org/movies/lastdragon/lastdragon6.wav

:rofl: I'm forever in your debt. :asian:

 

[Brother John]

From a annointed "ChiNegro," I feel your pain.

as you know, Doc, I'm a correctional officer.....
I have a young man on my case-load currently who has a tatt of "Sho-Nuf" on his back....and the words "Who's da baddest Mo Fo, low-down round this town?"

cracked me up when he tried to tell me about his martial arts background.
Said he was a student of "Bruce Lee", yet he was born in 1989.

Nice trick..that....

Your Bro. (low down round this town)
John

 

[Kreth]

Moderator Note.
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Kreth/Jeff Velten
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[Kenpojujitsu3]

So what is the incorrect system of Kenpo? Just because it is the latest doesn't make it correct. I would take an older version of Kenpo taught with correct basics and body mechanics over the "correct" version that many schools teach today.

Careful now, I hear that people frown upon ttat whole "making sense" idea. LOL. Good point.

 

[kenpohack]

I admire his tenacity; with the slew of us picking on him, he stood his ground. I'd bet he's a good kenpoist, if he brings even a fraction of that to his training. Yet again, Mr. Tatum's kenpo ain't the only kenpo. Damn good, and fast enough and technical enough that I'm sure he gets bored waiting for an attack to get there, so he works on grocery lists, etc. So in answer to whom, yes. Larry is one of them. That was not in question. Larry's undisputed apostolic succession was (note: my words, not kenporonin's).

Regards,

Dave

I don't think myself or Brian has ever argued that Larry is the benefactor of Apostolic succession to the throne of American Kenpo. On the contrary, I argue that in spite of that, he just moves better than anyone else. As far as your differentiation between iron-workers and clockmakers, take your best iron-workers and put them against Clyde. I'm confident he would come out on top. Now, to give you a lesson on fallacies...you committed a false dilema fallacy. A kenpoist does not have to choose between the diametric opposites of toughness and technical skill. You can have both. Clyde does. I will testify to that. Curiously, so does Brian.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people on this board gets their panties tied in knots over assertions made on a thread that solicits an opinion. If you can't handle the fact that someone disagrees with you, then don't ask for an opinion. You can live in fantasy land and engage in your sheltered circle-jerks without anyone to disturb your mutual-admiration society. This is how life works: you can either live blissfully ignorant within the confines of your fool's paradise, or you can ask for the opinion of others. You cannot do both. If you prefer things both ways, which would not surprise me in the least, then you'll have to reinvent the rules of logic to conform to your preferences. You have done a good job of that with kenpo, already.

 

[hongkongfooey]

I don't think myself or Brian has ever argued that Larry is the benefactor of Apostolic succession to the throne of American Kenpo. On the contrary, I argue that in spite of that, he just moves better than anyone else. As far as your differentiation between iron-workers and clockmakers, take your best iron-workers and put them against Clyde. I'm confident he would come out on top. Now, to give you a lesson on fallacies...you committed a false dilema fallacy. A kenpoist does not have to choose between the diametric opposites of toughness and technical skill. You can have both. Clyde does. I will testify to that. Curiously, so does Brian.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people on this board gets their panties tied in knots over assertions made on a thread that solicits an opinion. If you can't handle the fact that someone disagrees with you, then don't ask for an opinion. You can live in fantasy land and engage in your sheltered circle-jerks without anyone to disturb your mutual-admiration society. This is how life works: you can either live blissfully ignorant within the confines of your fool's paradise, or you can ask for the opinion of others. You cannot do both. If you prefer things both ways, which would not surprise me in the least, then you'll have to reinvent the rules of logic to conform to your preferences. You have done a good job of that with kenpo, already.

You can tell that you are from Clyde's line. I guess the problem doesn't stem from someone's opinion. Though, it does become a problem when someone presents their opinion as fact and then proceeds to tell everyone in a round about way that only Larry Tatum and his line have the real Kenpo. Larry Tatum is damn good, but he isn't the only person to have knowledge in Kenpoland. Maybe guys like Tom Kelly and Huk Planas, who helped Ed Parker put together the "new" system that only Larry's line could possibly be good at, could add further insight. But they're not here. So we have to all pretend that we now know what the truth is when none of really do. The only person who knows who received all of Mr. Parkers knowledge is Ed Parker, and he's dead, so all we have is speculation.

 

[jazkiljok]

I don't think myself or Brian has ever argued that Larry is the benefactor of Apostolic succession to the throne of American Kenpo. On the contrary, I argue that in spite of that, he just moves better than anyone else. As far as your differentiation between iron-workers and clockmakers, take your best iron-workers and put them against Clyde. I'm confident he would come out on top. Now, to give you a lesson on fallacies...you committed a false dilema fallacy. A kenpoist does not have to choose between the diametric opposites of toughness and technical skill. You can have both. Clyde does. I will testify to that. Curiously, so does Brian.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people on this board gets their panties tied in knots over assertions made on a thread that solicits an opinion. If you can't handle the fact that someone disagrees with you, then don't ask for an opinion. You can live in fantasy land and engage in your sheltered circle-jerks without anyone to disturb your mutual-admiration society. This is how life works: you can either live blissfully ignorant within the confines of your fool's paradise, or you can ask for the opinion of others. You cannot do both. If you prefer things both ways, which would not surprise me in the least, then you'll have to reinvent the rules of logic to conform to your preferences. You have done a good job of that with kenpo, already.

i agree- an opinion is just that-- who knows much about most of the folks here and what they really know or do not in the arts and whether these opinions amount to anything at all-- we just state things that we "feel" or think and let the discussion flow-- i frankly IMHO don't even think it would have made much difference if Ed Parker deemed Larry Tatum or anyone else for that matter his successor. Ed Parker's reasoning for his choice would have been subjected to the same scrutiny and disagreements anyway.

we're all in fool's paradises-- hearing a contrary opinion isn't going to go far to changing a viewpoint of most folks.

now spending 5 to 50 years doing kenpo/MAs one way and then going in front of some one who teaches you something that blows you away and alters how you do something that you've been doing all those years-- that's how you change viewpoints in the MAs.

and the person who can do that, that's the person who is teaching the correct way...

contrarians-- have at it.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

i agree- an opinion is just that-- who knows much about most of the folks here and what they really know or do not in the arts and whether these opinions amount to anything at all-- we just state things that we "feel" or think and let the discussion flow-- i frankly IMHO don't even think it would have made much difference if Ed Parker deemed Larry Tatum or anyone else for that matter his successor. Ed Parker's reasoning for his choice would have been subjected to the same scrutiny and disagreements anyway.

we're all in fool's paradises-- hearing a contrary opinion isn't going to go far to changing a viewpoint of most folks.

now spending 5 to 50 years doing kenpo/MAs one way and then going in front of some one who teaches you something that blows you away and alters how you do something that you've been doing all those years-- that's how you change viewpoints in the MAs.

and the person who can do that, that's the person who is teaching the correct way...

contrarians-- have at it.

Excellent post, excellent points.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I don't think myself or Brian has ever argued that Larry is the benefactor of Apostolic succession to the throne of American Kenpo. On the contrary, I argue that in spite of that, he just moves better than anyone else. As far as your differentiation between iron-workers and clockmakers, take your best iron-workers and put them against Clyde. I'm confident he would come out on top. Now, to give you a lesson on fallacies...you committed a false dilema fallacy. A kenpoist does not have to choose between the diametric opposites of toughness and technical skill. You can have both. Clyde does. I will testify to that. Curiously, so does Brian.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people on this board gets their panties tied in knots over assertions made on a thread that solicits an opinion. If you can't handle the fact that someone disagrees with you, then don't ask for an opinion. You can live in fantasy land and engage in your sheltered circle-jerks without anyone to disturb your mutual-admiration society. This is how life works: you can either live blissfully ignorant within the confines of your fool's paradise, or you can ask for the opinion of others. You cannot do both. If you prefer things both ways, which would not surprise me in the least, then you'll have to reinvent the rules of logic to conform to your preferences. You have done a good job of that with kenpo, already.

I repeat, Opinions are fine. Opinions stated as fact (which is what Brian's posts were about before the backpedalling) are not. Speaking of a fools paradise, only a fool deals in absolutes. A fool also proclaims that someone is the best (again another absolute) without seeing EVERYONE else who does the same thing. (e.g. "Tatum moves better than anyone else") have you seen all of the other millions of kenpo practitioners to substantiate this or is it another assumption? Also exactly what is the "clearly delineated standard" for 'moves better' that is not based on the opinion of the observer in question? Again Tatum is one of the best in many categories, but I personally haven't and never will see everyone to be able to call him THE best at anything. Assumptions violate the "rules of logic" as well.

Again opinons = great. Passion about opinions = great. Passion combined with dedication = great. Passion combined with dedication that turns opinions into facts and snide comments with those who dispute "the facts" = not so great.

Opinions + Conjecture + Assumptions < Actual Facts.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I don't think myself or Brian has ever argued that Larry is the benefactor of Apostolic succession to the throne of American Kenpo. On the contrary, I argue that in spite of that, he just moves better than anyone else. As far as your differentiation between iron-workers and clockmakers, take your best iron-workers and put them against Clyde. I'm confident he would come out on top. Now, to give you a lesson on fallacies...you committed a false dilema fallacy. A kenpoist does not have to choose between the diametric opposites of toughness and technical skill. You can have both. Clyde does. I will testify to that. Curiously, so does Brian.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many people on this board gets their panties tied in knots over assertions made on a thread that solicits an opinion. If you can't handle the fact that someone disagrees with you, then don't ask for an opinion. You can live in fantasy land and engage in your sheltered circle-jerks without anyone to disturb your mutual-admiration society. This is how life works: you can either live blissfully ignorant within the confines of your fool's paradise, or you can ask for the opinion of others. You cannot do both. If you prefer things both ways, which would not surprise me in the least, then you'll have to reinvent the rules of logic to conform to your preferences. You have done a good job of that with kenpo, already.

You are correct, sir. I did create a false dillemma. Unfortunately, as I see it (in my opinion), the infrequent exception to the rule does not nullify the rule. Clyde may be both technical and tough, and perfectly capable of kicking many a buttock. And? Will we now go into a complex equivalence of "this means that", or a negated form to say "this means not that'?. Or better still, lets decline into argumentum ad bacculum in a twisted sort of way...might is right. Since Clyde can kick many buttocks, there IS no dilemma between iron-workers & watch-makers.

Hm

 

[Doc]

"Anybody who is any good is different from anybody else." — Felix Frankfurter

"If everybody is doing it, it can't be the best." - Ed Parker Sr.

 

[JamesB]

"Anybody who is any good is different from anybody else." — Felix Frankfurter

"If everybody is doing it, it can't be the best." - Ed Parker Sr.

I like those quotes and personally I believe a more appropriate title for this thread would have been 'who is teaching the most effective system?' 'correct' is only a personal view-point, whereas 'effective' is effective no matter what.

 

[Andrew Green]

whereas 'effective' is effective no matter what.

Effective requires criteria and a means of testing, any ideas?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I like those quotes and personally I believe a more appropriate title for this thread would have been 'who is teaching the most effective system?' 'correct' is only a personal view-point, whereas 'effective' is effective no matter what.

True that effective is effective. However as soon as you add the modifier "most" it's open to the same debate again.

What's the "most" effective a head kick or choke? They both put the other guy to sleep. The kick is quicker but not guaranteed when it hits. The choke is slower but once its set going out is guaranteed.

What's the "most" effective a head kick or a choke? Try to get a kickboxer and Ju Jitsu gu to agree on that.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Effective requires criteria and a means of testing, any ideas?

Since Kenpo addresses multiple attackers, varying environments and weapons. Put all of the seniors and their best students in one big cage around an occupied parking lot littered with debris. Last man/team standing has the "most" effective system.

As if...

 

[Doc]

Since Kenpo addresses multiple attackers, varying environments and weapons. Put all of the seniors and their best students in one big cage around an occupied parking lot littered with debris. Last man/team standing has the "most" effective system.

As if...

But that means nothing. Me and my team carry guns all the time.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

But that means nothing. Me and my team carry guns all the time.

:rofl:

 

[Andrew Green]

Since Kenpo addresses multiple attackers, varying environments and weapons. Put all of the seniors and their best students in one big cage around an occupied parking lot littered with debris. Last man/team standing has the "most" effective system.

As if...

Now there is a PPV

 

[JamesB]

True that effective is effective. However as soon as you add the modifier "most" it's open to the same debate again.

doh! ok you got me....and I guess even 'who's teaching *an* effective system' is just as subjective.