SKK Problem Techniques

[Jdokan]

I never liked #21 always felt I was walking into the punch....

 

[JTKenpo]

I never liked #21 always felt I was walking into the punch....

How do you start? The way I was given 21 starts identical to 26. Left knife block into right leopards paw under the bicep.

 

[Jdokan]

Sorry messed up I ment #20.....left outward sword/driving right sword to their right collarbone....
my 21 is okay dropping twist stance..

 

[marlon]

Sorry messed up I ment #20.....left outward sword/driving right sword to their right collarbone....
my 21 is okay dropping twist stance..

20 is great the simultaneous block and driving strike to the collar bone is a fairly secure move. what about do you not like?

marlon

 

[Jdokan]

I remember a faster punch than my block and it slid up arm into my face....I changed the block from outward sword to a more forward....then movin' in with my attack once I had CONTROL of the attacking arm...Hence all my techniques now start the same way: " get control of the attack then......

 

[marlon]

I remember a faster punch than my block and it slid up arm into my face....I changed the block from outward sword to a more forward....then movin' in with my attack once I had CONTROL of the attacking arm...Hence all my techniques now start the same way: " get control of the attack then......

i see what you are saying...however, this combo does have lean / shift away before the step in with both hands raised (one blocks the other attacks) and this simultaneaous block attack is a signature kempo thing. and once the attacker has thier positioning disturbed then it is the best time to 'get control'. but perhaps i need to see your way done.

marlon

 

[KENPOJOE]

unfortuneately what kenpojoe did for a video is what many instructors do and call it teaching. Many people do not move thier partner when practicing therefore many never see that there is anything more to take into account. And then many practice with a overly cooperative partner and this sucks also. It does not help kempo's reputation much when people teach and practice this way. I know at least that Master Dwire, master Hatch, and master Barnes in the East train in a truthful manner and represent kempo effectively..../It seems that Lawdog does also!



Respectfully,
marlon

Hi folks!
Dear Marlon,
I was made aware of this post by several people making me awre of it. They felt I should "say something" about your statements/comments.
First of all, why do you seem to be under the impression that what i've shown via my video is not considered "teaching"?
To clarify several points:
1. in the "ideal phase" of a given technique [I use parker kenpoi terminology because shaolin kempo does not have sufficent terminology to describe many of the aspects of the art they teach], you have the attacker execute a halfmoon foot amnver forward while executing a "front two knuckle" punch at head height level. Because it was one of the first combinations that students learned in that given art. It is designed to show a BEGINNER in a STUDIO atmosphere to insure that a given student can practice the combination safely at a slow pace and prperly learn the "embryoic state" of the actions contained within said technique.
2. Initially, the student is claerly told NOT to make contact with the opponent because both are beginners and in the past, they[instructors] were concerned about the safety of students & recently because of concerns about losing students if they "touched" each other [this was an actual statement nmade to me by an alleged "kempo" instructor]. obviously, in hawaii in the "good old days", the opposite was "true" and contact was a staple of training.
3. The very point you are trying to make i've made on innumerable occasions on this board as well as others. The objective was to demonstrate on a rudimentary level ,select techniques from the karazenpo goshinjutsu lineage. I purposely did not have my opponent "react" to my strikes nor did i make substancial contact. Because, I was "teaching" the technique [although you don't consider it as such].
4. Unfortunately, many shaolin kempo studios do not teach the "What if" phase of techniques [another parker kenpo term] and I know for a fact that in many of the original USSD locations, it was borderline discouraged!
When I teach these techniques to my students, you can sure as shimola bet they get contact and understand reactionary positioning. Being "co-opperative" during a given technique sometimes saves you from getting a full power blow/strike during the course of said techniques.
5. the use of a "ghost image" is obtained by proper timing and "reading" your opponent's action & commitment so as to slip the punch without the opponet "following" your evasion. However, because many white belt beginners did the movement slowly the attacker would follow the moving head of the defending student, so a checking hand was added [wow! checks in shaolin kempo! what a rarity! {i wasn't being sarcastic there}]
I read this post and I couldn't help but laugh...
Marlon, as you said earlier in this post, I'll tell you what "sucks" is the fact that apparently you are unaware that I have taught seminars for all the people you mention in your post! I've sat on their testing boards,assisted them in any capacity I could, studied and researched those arts, spoke to first generation students and masters of those arts & all things considered, have a good friendship or relationship with them. That.sire. is the "truth"
I can just see it now.."ok,little johnny, now slip the punch and F2K square in the jimmy! Don't worry if you rupture his testicles! He doesn't use them much anyway! LOL! A little higher and you'll smack the urinary bladder and burst it! no biggie,urine will get in his bloodstream and poison his organs,but hay, he won't die right away and and we can say he did it at kiddie football practice!Now yank that arm down and blast him with B2K to the temple and make him a drooling vegatable! oh, he's only 6,he still drools anyway..."
ROFLMAO!!!
THAT'S SOME FUNNY STUFF RIGHT THERE!
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
PS:Let me assure you, I teach "effectively"

 

[KENPOJOE]

If you are actually moving your partner with your strikes and manipulations, how can you NOT take these things into account?

After watching kenpoJoe's karazenpo videos I asked him why his attacker was not reacting to the strikes; he said it was to preerve the way the techs were historically taught. :/

Hi folks!
Dear David,
The intent of the video was to demonstrate the technique on a basic level to demonstrate the technique. I actually did that to show later generations who were not in the art back then how the technique was introduced to students. I realize that people like yourself were not in kenpo karate/shaolin kempo at that time,So, i thought you would actually might like someone demonstrating those techniques. Sorry if I was mistaken on your part. But, as you can read on the previous post, I clearly explain my reason and rationale.
If you don't like that..no biggie!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[marlon]

Hi folks!
Dear Marlon,
I was made aware of this post by several people making me awre of it. They felt I should "say something" about your statements/comments.
First of all, why do you seem to be under the impression that what i've shown via my video is not considered "teaching"?
To clarify several points:
1. in the "ideal phase" of a given technique [I use parker kenpoi terminology because shaolin kempo does not have sufficent terminology to describe many of the aspects of the art they teach], you have the attacker execute a halfmoon foot amnver forward while executing a "front two knuckle" punch at head height level. Because it was one of the first combinations that students learned in that given art. It is designed to show a BEGINNER in a STUDIO atmosphere to insure that a given student can practice the combination safely at a slow pace and prperly learn the "embryoic state" of the actions contained within said technique.
2. Initially, the student is claerly told NOT to make contact with the opponent because both are beginners and in the past, they[instructors] were concerned about the safety of students & recently because of concerns about losing students if they "touched" each other [this was an actual statement nmade to me by an alleged "kempo" instructor]. obviously, in hawaii in the "good old days", the opposite was "true" and contact was a staple of training.
3. The very point you are trying to make i've made on innumerable occasions on this board as well as others. The objective was to demonstrate on a rudimentary level ,select techniques from the karazenpo goshinjutsu lineage. I purposely did not have my opponent "react" to my strikes nor did i make substancial contact. Because, I was "teaching" the technique [although you don't consider it as such].
4. Unfortunately, many shaolin kempo studios do not teach the "What if" phase of techniques [another parker kenpo term] and I know for a fact that in many of the original USSD locations, it was borderline discouraged!
When I teach these techniques to my students, you can sure as shimola bet they get contact and understand reactionary positioning. Being "co-opperative" during a given technique sometimes saves you from getting a full power blow/strike during the course of said techniques.
5. the use of a "ghost image" is obtained by proper timing and "reading" your opponent's action & commitment so as to slip the punch without the opponet "following" your evasion. However, because many white belt beginners did the movement slowly the attacker would follow the moving head of the defending student, so a checking hand was added [wow! checks in shaolin kempo! what a rarity! {i wasn't being sarcastic there}]
I read this post and I couldn't help but laugh...
Marlon, as you said earlier in this post, I'll tell you what "sucks" is the fact that apparently you are unaware that I have taught seminars for all the people you mention in your post! I've sat on their testing boards,assisted them in any capacity I could, studied and researched those arts, spoke to first generation students and masters of those arts & all things considered, have a good friendship or relationship with them. That.sire. is the "truth"
I can just see it now.."ok,little johnny, now slip the punch and F2K square in the jimmy! Don't worry if you rupture his testicles! He doesn't use them much anyway! LOL! A little higher and you'll smack the urinary bladder and burst it! no biggie,urine will get in his bloodstream and poison his organs,but hay, he won't die right away and and we can say he did it at kiddie football practice!Now yank that arm down and blast him with B2K to the temple and make him a drooling vegatable! oh, he's only 6,he still drools anyway..."
ROFLMAO!!!
THAT'S SOME FUNNY STUFF RIGHT THERE!
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
PS:Let me assure you, I teach "effectively"

Kenpojoe,
i think that i have always demonstrates and stated that i have a high regard for your knowledge and all the work you do teaching. I have not seen said video and was responding to a comment made by someone who apparently had seen it. I in no way disparage your teaching ability. I assumed that in the video you demonstrated the technique in the ideal phase 'only' and did not discuss or demonstrate more because (as someone else said) it was more of a historical document). My 'unfortunately' comment is about some schools that never go beyond the ideal phase , i do not include you in this category in the least. I remember being hit by you once in a discussion of ...i do not remember what...so i kow something of your power. Please remember, everyone who knows me, who i am and do not take somethings wriiten here out of context of who i am. It is difficult to take the time to writethings out in such a manner that no one is offended and that everything it COULD mean is clearly addrssed. I hope you get to read this Kenp[ojoe or the others who informed you of things said previously let you know of this post as well. Once again for the record, i respect your knowledge and i believe you to be a skilled teacher. nor have i ever seen that video...BTW i still have and use the dvd i have from you on honsuki and await the nexty one which i have emailed you about. you are a source i respect sir!!

marlon

 

[LawDog]

There are two ways to instruct material,
1 - Ideal Phase,
2 - Actual response,
both are correct.
Actual response is when your impacting strikes / kicks are in their proper power curve when one point of impact meets the other point of impact. The amount of control used for the impacting will depend on the instructors line of thought.
:ultracool
p.s.
KenpoJoe, where have you been latley?

 

[Jdokan]

How about 43???? my version is a hopping, skipping Peter rabbit thing (that I do practice) I may have the technique wrong....doubt it but maybe.....
Inside double block.....r/palm to face jump/spin CCW land back to man L/elbow to spleen....JUmp again CCW: r/palm back of head, jump/spin again L/elbow spine... spin again....r/palm to spine.....
jump/spin to the thirteenth power...........seems more kung phooey (Villari) than Kenpo.....

 

[marlon]

JT first i am not anyone that you need to explain to at all. my post had nothing to do with anyone specifically on the forum and certainly was not directed at you. If i have something to say i am usually very direct. from all the discussions i have seen you involved in you seem top be a very respectable martial; artist. I understand and agree with Kenpojoe's reasoning for the video and the historical perspective. My criticism is about a different kind of practice. Regardless, i look forward to trainign with you and fully expect it to be fun, educational and bruising!!!

respectfully,
Marlon

Kenpojoe and others, please re read the above post which clearly states that i am not attacking Master Rebelo or his students! This is so frustrating!!!!
Again, MY CRITICISM IS ABOUT A DIFFERENT KIND OF PRACTICE!!!!

respectfully,
marlon
lurking is so much safer...i know why Doc takes so much time to carefully craft answers.

 

[JTKenpo]

How about 43???? my version is a hopping, skipping Peter rabbit thing (that I do practice) I may have the technique wrong....doubt it but maybe.....
Inside double block.....r/palm to face jump/spin CCW land back to man L/elbow to spleen....JUmp again CCW: r/palm back of head, jump/spin again L/elbow spine... spin again....r/palm to spine.....
jump/spin to the thirteenth power...........seems more kung phooey (Villari) than Kenpo.....

WOW, my 43 is VERY different. In fact it is simply an advanced version of #3. Left brush block (palm block) and grab the shoulder, right punch to kidney then temple, open right hand and grab attackers chin (inverted tiger claw or crab claw I believe some call it), take down by rolling attackers head back and counter clockwise, finish with jumping axe kick to solor plexus while attacker is down.

 

[JTKenpo]

Kenpojoe and others, please re read the above post which clearly states that i am not attacking Master Rebelo or his students! This is so frustrating!!!!
Again, MY CRITICISM IS ABOUT A DIFFERENT KIND OF PRACTICE!!!!

respectfully,
marlon
lurking is so much safer...i know why Doc takes so much time to carefully craft answers.

Hi Marlon, I don't know if you recieved a pm from any one but your reply to me squashed any concerns I had so don't sweat the small stuff. I'll give you a call. No worrys mate.

 

[DavidCC]

Hi folks!
Dear David,
The intent of the video was to demonstrate the technique on a basic level to demonstrate the technique. I actually did that to show later generations who were not in the art back then how the technique was introduced to students. I realize that people like yourself were not in kenpo karate/shaolin kempo at that time,So, i thought you would actually might like someone demonstrating those techniques. Sorry if I was mistaken on your part. But, as you can read on the previous post, I clearly explain my reason and rationale.
If you don't like that..no biggie!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

I read the email you sent me after I posted my same opinion on the YT video, and I understand why you wanted to record it that way. And I do find value in looking at how techniques have evolved over time.

And while I am still new to martial arts I do understand some things. One thing I know about kempo is that it takes advantage of predictable, elicited responses from the attacker, reactions caused by your actions - strikes, manipulations etc. Therefore I don't think it is a useful teaching method to ignore the reactions of the other guy, even when teaching at the most basic level.
I think you could have just as clearly (or even better) made your point with NO body standing there instead of a body that showed NO reaction to your actions. When I teach, children and adults, I spend as much time describing the actions and reactions of the attacker as I do the actions of the student - because the goal is to control the attacker, the goal is not to perform a technique.

"Ideal Phase" in no way implies or denotes that the attacker should just stand still with their arm extended while you execute your moves. Ideal Phase refers to one part of the overall process of analyzing situations and scenarios, wherein the actions of the attacker and student are defined and prescribed specifically and studied without deviation. Once the Ideal Phase of actions and reactions is understood, then the student should start to analyze variables in the attacker's behavior or the influence of other factors such as their own limitations or environmental considerations. I don't believe there is ANY phase of the situational analysis wherein the reaction of the attacker to your actions is ignored.

=============

As for Marlon's post, I think he was generalizing from your specific: if using that format accomplishes a specific goal (of showing how it was taught some years ago), it is unproductive to teach that way all the time, and those that do are not doing their students a service. I didn't understand him to be saying that Kenpojoe teaches that way all the time.

 

[JTKenpo]

I read the email you sent me after I posted my same opinion on the YT video, and I understand why you wanted to record it that way. And I do find value in looking at how techniques have evolved over time.

And while I am still new to martial arts I do understand some things. One thing I know about kempo is that it takes advantage of predictable, elicited responses from the attacker, reactions caused by your actions - strikes, manipulations etc. Therefore I don't think it is a useful teaching method to ignore the reactions of the other guy, even when teaching at the most basic level.
I think you could have just as clearly (or even better) made your point with NO body standing there instead of a body that showed NO reaction to your actions. When I teach, children and adults, I spend as much time describing the actions and reactions of the attacker as I do the actions of the student - because the goal is to control the attacker, the goal is not to perform a technique.

"Ideal Phase" in no way implies or denotes that the attacker should just stand still with their arm extended while you execute your moves. Ideal Phase refers to one part of the overall process of analyzing situations and scenarios, wherein the actions of the attacker and student are defined and prescribed specifically and studied without deviation. Once the Ideal Phase of actions and reactions is understood, then the student should start to analyze variables in the attacker's behavior or the influence of other factors such as their own limitations or environmental considerations. I don't believe there is ANY phase of the situational analysis wherein the reaction of the attacker to your actions is ignored.

=============

As for Marlon's post, I think he was generalizing from your specific: if using that format accomplishes a specific goal (of showing how it was taught some years ago), it is unproductive to teach that way all the time, and those that do are not doing their students a service. I didn't understand him to be saying that Kenpojoe teaches that way all the time.

Opinion well noted, now could you possibly post a link to a video that we could all watch you teach or move?

 

[RevIV]

How about 43???? my version is a hopping, skipping Peter rabbit thing (that I do practice) I may have the technique wrong....doubt it but maybe.....
Inside double block.....r/palm to face jump/spin CCW land back to man L/elbow to spleen....JUmp again CCW: r/palm back of head, jump/spin again L/elbow spine... spin again....r/palm to spine.....
jump/spin to the thirteenth power...........seems more kung phooey (Villari) than Kenpo.....

I cannot stand 43. I have gone and tried 3 different versions and they were all bad. My original stays on your feet and keeps spinning and somehow you end up behind them,, which does not make sense unless you are not hitting them. Demasco's version i believe jumps in the air during the spins and strikes at a downward angle. I learned another version from a 6th dan out of TokyoJoe's and it is nothing even close to ours. I liked it but then realized that everything after 40 in the tokyojoe's system was made up by someone else and not done the Villari way.

 

[RevIV]

WOW, my 43 is VERY different. In fact it is simply an advanced version of #3. Left brush block (palm block) and grab the shoulder, right punch to kidney then temple, open right hand and grab attackers chin (inverted tiger claw or crab claw I believe some call it), take down by rolling attackers head back and counter clockwise, finish with jumping axe kick to solor plexus while attacker is down.

you are going to have to teach me that one

 

[RevIV]

I am reading these posts and seeing some people's belts getting a little tight. I am glad some of you made nice on PM's but lets remember these are forums and no one wants to get together in August if anyone thinks they need to prove something. I put on the list for one thing that we should go over at our get together - #43-- also i know what is coming next, and i do not know what is the best time to get together.. it may not be until after the summer from what some people are saying to me in emails.

 

[DavidCC]

Opinion well noted, now could you possibly post a link to a video that we could all watch you teach or move?

recording some video has been on my mind lately, especially some of the techs we do differently from the "standard" SKK. When I have time I have nobody to work with (late at night); when I have people to work with I don't have time to video it (class time), so that's a catch-22 I am still trying to work out... maybe I could post some video of me struggling to learn some SL-4 from Doc Chapel, that might be good for a laugh LOL.