SKK Combinations: Concepts

[JTKenpo]

Interesting, but that does contradict everyone else I've ever read who wrote about how Chow taught...

I agree and thats what prompted me to ask.

 

[SK101]

I don't know about your #6, but mine doesn't include any blocking.

The blocks to me on DM 6 suggest, IMHO only that the interpretation is being viewed off the right cross or giving more of a safety messure to the first DM most students learn. I don't think 6 needs the blocks, but there are many great concepts when you look at versions of 6 with them.


I could prefix #6 with a 50-yard dash to 6 oclock, does #6 teach sprinting LOL???`

Yes if DM 6 originally had a fifty yard dash then yes the 50 yard dash would be a concept. There is a form in SK where you run away then reverse direction and impale your opponent with your strikes. The first weapon defense you should have is, pull out your wallet and give it up properly. You could easily argue that making that technique work well requires developing your running skills especially with a gun when during flight you aren't completly out of danger till you go around an obstacle to the path of the bullet. Why they want too shoot you afterwards I don't know, but technically you are still in range till you accomplish that.

 

[SK101]

But SKK is fairly new and the originators, for the most part, are still alive, even if you trace back to 3 different styles (NCK, KGS, Kaju).

Yes those are great systems, but I never fail to be amazed by SK masters. I haven't gone to a workout yet where I haven't learned new concepts on techniques I am working on now and I am becoming an old dog, I am not new to the system by any stretch. If that learning curve ever runs out then I will spend more time on the lineage arts, but right now tons to learn already. I've trained in the system and out of the system. The system just works well for me right now. That could always change however.

Someone had mentioned knowing the history of the system. I have to admit I am guilty of not caring too much about the history although I can certainly understand the argument for knowing it. I just get headaches when I read the explanation. I would say those who are interested Prof. Joe Shuras has posted many times in much detail the history of SK. For those who haven't read it my sarcastic take on the history is the Katas which were called pinans, but aren't the pinions your thinking of................That line some ups why I get headaches. I can follow the explanation, but you gotta read it a few times.

 

[SK101]

For example, Doc Chapel has proven beyond a shodow of doubt (in my mind) that the C-Step and the half-moon stance are fundamentally flawed and are in fact making us weaker. So do we just ignore that and continue to teach these things out of tradition? The deepe we go down this hole, the more of these pitfalls we will find.

When you place a boxer in front of a heavy bag your doing a disservice. Since the attacker doesn't actually stand still how can you possibly train with a heavy bag that isn't moving like a person. The half moon is a training tool. You use it too learn from an easier format. You use it to make the early training safer. You use it too a smaller degree to learn to attack the leg when moving forward. If someone doesn't like using the half moon early on they just change systems.

 

[SK101]

that is, it is easier to move inside a hooking or roundhouse, easier to move outside a straight punch.

Sorry Dave I seem to be disagreeing with you more than usual tonight. I agree with the first part, but straight punch is as easy to move to the inside as to go to the outside. Safer on the outside since you have less limbs to deal with generally and with more targets on the inside.

Maybe my meaning of inside is different. terminology can be a problem.

 

[SK101]

Well, I'm not even in the area, so I'm out, but I wish I could even get someone in my area to respond to a thread ... LOL ... seems that people out here on the left coast won't even talk.

My two cents would be, once a week would be great, once a month would be good, but even if it is once per quarter, or twice a year ... it would all be fantastic!

I am in Bakersfield only a 5 hour drive from you. If you ever want to come up and train just let me know. Besides we have cows up here. So much to see and do. Man sometimes I miss it down south.

 

[SK101]

Nebraska is a great central location for an annual event.

for example www.budocamponline.com

:angel:

Amen Dave I was thinking that same thought. We can cruise Grand Island. Maybe go cowtipping. I suppose Omaha isn't as bad as Grand Island. Are you guys still in Omaha?

 

[SK101]

did we do combo #15 yet? I like that one, one of the first that uses more circular movements and body shielding.
wait sorry i missed #14 - crazy guy attacks with bo staff, jump over the low swing, kick him in the face and his buddy behind you too.... sorry couldnt resist

so, back to 15, I was always taught it with the guy laying over the knee, now i teach it that way and also with the follow through slamming the guy right to the ground (never going onto my knee for the 2nd one).

The original version I had of 15 we used a #5 block and a cross step even though we practiced with a straight punch. I like the way the groin strike and ridge were simultaneous. This concept is certainly in other parts of the system, but that strike is nasty off a straight punch and much more dangerous if the attack was an overhead strike or club. I wouldn't finish the tech the same way if it was a club, but non the less I like that concept.

I was watching the cerio interpretatin of 15 with the knee angeled up so you break the spine on your knee and started wondering how that position compared to doing a technique where they have been felled. I really like the idea of using that position to create less counters for the attacker who is now defending.

Does anyone look at it differently and think better to have them on the floor as far as counters go.

 

[SK101]

One more thought on 15 both the crossover w#5 block and the professor I version with left palm then right palm blocks they both teach us to get behind the opponent.

Professor I referrs to cleansing the meridians on this technique. Anyone had the chance to work this concept in person with him?

 

[SK101]

Oh no, not a slam at all, I agree. I'm just beyond it all. I think it's all rediculous. To any and all those people I say, "Move on, get over it!" I was with Villari out here in the west when the split took place. I made comments about it all, I have thoughts about it all ... but it was 1988, 20+ years ago. I just wish people would get over it, if that is in fact what's going on. Forgive and forget. Let's find a way to pull some of this together and better our chosen art.

Just my two cents ....

I heard those were the fun times. Corporate gut a facelift with bullet proof glass, because persons unknown drove by with shotguns and removed the windows.

Master Taylor had told me $1,000,000 had been exchanged on a handshake and then United was repeatedly sued using their money. I don't forsee Villari and Mattera seeing eye to eye anytime soon.

I am way off subject,but do know how they served the court papers on Villari to keep him from running a California tournament after the split. It is a funny story.

 

[DavidCC]

Amen Dave I was thinking that same thought. We can cruise Grand Island. Maybe go cowtipping. I suppose Omaha isn't as bad as Grand Island. Are you guys still in Omaha?

Grand Island is many hours away from Omaha. Omaha is a "real" city, most of our streets are paved now... 45th largest in the US or so... you'd have to make a road-trip to find some cows to tip, but that's OK plenty of time to get drunk on the way.

 

[DavidCC]

I don't know about your #6, but mine doesn't include any blocking.[\quote]

The blocks to me on DM 6 suggest, IMHO only that the interpretation is being viewed off the right cross or giving more of a safety messure to the first DM most students learn. I don't think 6 needs the blocks, but there are many great concepts when you look at versions of 6 with them.


I could prefix #6 with a 50-yard dash to 6 oclock, does #6 teach sprinting LOL???`

Yes if DM 6 originally had a fifty yard dash then yes the 50 yard dash would be a concept. There is a form in SK where you run away then reverse direction and impale your opponent with your strikes. The first weapon defense you should have is, pull out your wallet and give it up properly. You could easily argue that making that technique work well requires developing your running skills especially with a gun when during flight you aren't completly out of danger till you go around an obstacle to the path of the bullet. Why they want too shoot you afterwards I don't know, but technically you are still in range till you accomplish that.

we teach hands in a guard position but the principle we think is core to #6 is that longer weapons can beat the action vs reaction timing.

Yes those are great systems, but I never fail to be amazed by SK masters. I haven't gone to a workout yet where I haven't learned new concepts on techniques I am working on now and I am becoming an old dog, I am not new to the system by any stretch. If that learning curve ever runs out then I will spend more time on the lineage arts, but right now tons to learn already. I've trained in the system and out of the system. The system just works well for me right now. That could always change however.

Someone had mentioned knowing the history of the system. I have to admit I am guilty of not caring too much about the history although I can certainly understand the argument for knowing it. I just get headaches when I read the explanation. I would say those who are interested Prof. Joe Shuras has posted many times in much detail the history of SK. For those who haven't read it my sarcastic take on the history is the Katas which were called pinans, but aren't the pinions your thinking of................That line some ups why I get headaches. I can follow the explanation, but you gotta read it a few times.

The reason I brought up the SKK leaders was to say that here we are in this thread, trying to hash out some answers to questiosn that any of these gusy shoudl be able to answer; some of the posters here are in contact with these people, so why are we guessing when they could be asked...

When you place a boxer in front of a heavy bag your doing a disservice. Since the attacker doesn't actually stand still how can you possibly train with a heavy bag that isn't moving like a person. The half moon is a training tool. You use it too learn from an easier format. You use it to make the early training safer. You use it too a smaller degree to learn to attack the leg when moving forward. If someone doesn't like using the half moon early on they just change systems.

I fully agree that students need a predicatable attack to work against as they learn a technique; we have chosen to make that a realistic attack from the beginning, just executed slower than real life will come at you. And I would opine that the same way you suggest a heavy bag is a disservice to a boxer because "it doesn't move like a person", I suggest the exact same criteria be applied to having attackers use half-moons - it isn't moving like a person.

Sorry Dave I seem to be disagreeing with you more than usual tonight. I agree with the first part, but straight punch is as easy to move to the inside as to go to the outside. Safer on the outside since you have less limbs to deal with generally and with more targets on the inside.

Maybe my meaning of inside is different. terminology can be a problem.

I'm fully used to beign disagreed with. I'm on my 2nd wife and have 3 daughters living with me.
When I think iof a straight punch I think of one that comes directly at my head from the attackers shoulder, so it is straight on an angle inwards, so for me at least, it is easier to go outside those than inside. however this is only a small degree easier, I don't totally disagree with what you wrote, and perhaps as I get better that difference will disappear for me.

 

[punisher73]

Our influence comes from kung fu. I can tell you all, that at least here on the West Coast, we were being told that we were learning kung fu, and that was far, far from the truth. Once I actually saw and worked with someone experienced in kung fu, and watched them perform the original 26 combinations, my jaw dropped. Recognizable, but different.

When you talk about the original 26 combos, are those from Karazenpo GoshinJutsu? What were the original attacks for them?

 

[14 Kempo]

When you talk about the original 26 combos, are those from Karazenpo GoshinJutsu? What were the original attacks for them?

I would have to answer yes to that. We had Sonny Gascon in our shool his past year and performed those 26 movements for him. As far as the original attacks, I can only say that for me, they are all learned off a step through punch. We do, however, have discussions involving them being done off of grabs ... and we do them ourselves off of various attacks, at a higher level, and with adjustments.

My answer to you can only be through my own personal experience, and I would have to say that I learned them originally in the late 80s and they were done off a right step through punch.

 

[punisher73]

I would have to answer yes to that. We had Sonny Gascon in our shool his past year and performed those 26 movements for him. As far as the original attacks, I can only say that for me, they are all learned off a step through punch. We do, however, have discussions involving them being done off of grabs ... and we do them ourselves off of various attacks, at a higher level, and with adjustments.

My answer to you can only be through my own personal experience, and I would have to say that I learned them originally in the late 80s and they were done off a right step through punch.

How much have they been altered from the original way? I came across an article ( http://www.duncansmartialarts.com/article3.htm ), but it said that the original DM's were based off of the "monkey dances" (katas) and had been altered so that they did not correspond to those anymore.

I have also heard that the original 26 dealt with a boxer throwing a right cross. Master Rebelo talks about this in one of his youtube clips. He shows how the original #3 has you step offline and strikes the bladder with a punch. He then goes on to show that with a step through punch the bladder isn't as accessible, but it allows for the addition of the shoulder grab/throw. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU2FltacEzg&feature=channel_page

I am trying to learn more of the history of the early kempo styles and any help is appreciated.

 

[JTKenpo]

I am trying to learn more of the history of the early kempo styles and any help is appreciated.

Don't make yourself too crazy over it, Kenpo history is to truth as beauty is to the eye of the beholder.

 

[LawDog]

JTKenpo,
Oh so true.
:idunno: