SKK/Kosho Variations

[MJS]

In another thread, there was some discussion of the Kosho material. There was talk of some changes some of the Kosho people did to some of the SKK techniques to make them more workable. I thought I'd start this thread to continue the discussion on the changes that were made.

I thought we could start with #1 combo from SKK and work up from there. How does the SKK version of this differ from Kosho?

Mike

 

[RevIV]

Mike,

What a great thread. and perfect timing for coincidence's. First off if would like to thank Sensei John Evans whom i met this weekend for the first time. I was in Jaffrey NH this weekend and called his school to see if we could meet up face to face. Even though he was done teaching for the day and had a busy schedule he waited around for me to show up and then we talked and shared some ideas for about 30minutes. One of the first things we worked on was Combo. #1 and how he does it relating to Kosho. Now i am not even going to bother trying to talk about it i just hope Sensei Evans or jdokan gets over here. I do know this, I will be getting to the Jaffrey school as often as i can this summer and beyond. Some of the principles he showed me, just made me (once again) realize how little i know. For people in the MTTALK community, if you are near a school and have time, stop in and say hi, you will see that most of the school owners (when not busy) will happily sit and talk.
Jesse

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Hi Jesse,

Thank you for such a compliment. It was great to meet you in person and I really enjoyed the ideas we shared. I look forward to training with you over the summer.

Since you liked what I showed you then I really want to make sure the credit goes to just a few of the Kosho teachers that have shared so much with me; Hanshi Bruce Juchnik, Kyoshi Larry Kraxberger, Kyoshi Pat Kelly & Shihan Mike Brown. Of course there have been others - just too many to list here.

My approach to adding in Kosho principles to the SKK combination techniques has been quite an interesting practice in itself. My goal in changing the techniques was to keep them looking as close to the original way as possible and without breaking any of the Kosho rules as I understand them. Of course, as I get a better understanding of Kosho the techniques get a make-over.

So I guess what I am saying is that the way I'll describe the combos here is just one of the ways we approach the techniques at my school. My teaching staff and I sat down one night and figured out that with all of the variations that we do, when multiplied in with the set techniques that I teach, we have nearly 8,000 techniques that we practice.

#1 Combination (base version) - As Taught By John Evans

As the attacker throws in the first punch with his right arm step to angle 7 with the right foot, strike with a left-handed back hand to the attacker's face on the left side and step with left foot to angle 5. Strike with a right-handed knife hand to the attacker's neck on the left side while checking the attacker's right arm above the elbow. Step through with right leg while keeping the upper-body structure to ensure the attacker's upper body moving while sweeping out his right leg. Finish up with whatever strike seems to fit, depending on how the attacker falls.

Gotta run to class. I hope this is a good start.


Take care,
John

 

[MJS]

#1 Combination (base version) - As Taught By John Evans

As the attacker throws in the first punch with his right arm step to angle 7 with the right foot, strike with a left-handed back hand to the attacker's face on the left side and step with left foot to angle 5. Strike with a right-handed knife hand to the attacker's neck on the left side while checking the attacker's right arm above the elbow. Step through with right leg while keeping the upper-body structure to ensure the attacker's upper body moving while sweeping out his right leg. Finish up with whatever strike seems to fit, depending on how the attacker falls.

Gotta run to class. I hope this is a good start.


Take care,
John

I wanted to bump this thread back up, as I feel it'll be interesting to discuss the variations.

Its been a while since I've done the SKK techniques. John, could you explain what you mean by angle 7 and 5? This sounds similar to the clock principle that the Parker system uses. I like the use of the strikes compared to the method I was taught, which was a left downward parry with the left, then wrapping the arm. Raking across the face with the right, returning with a bent wrist strike. Sweep their right leg as you strike to the throat with the right.

Mike

 

[Kosho-Monk]

The way you describe #1 is the way I used to do it. The problem with doing it that way is you will probably be whacked when the attacker throws another strike. In fact, most of the combos don't work for that simple fact. Seems like someone forgot that the attacker doesn't stand still when you start blocking and striking back. And now we have probably millions of martial artists that train to defend again an attacker that doesn't move.

 

[MJS]

The way you describe #1 is the way I used to do it. The problem with doing it that way is you will probably be whacked when the attacker throws another strike. In fact, most of the combos don't work for that simple fact. Seems like someone forgot that the attacker doesn't stand still when you start blocking and striking back. And now we have probably millions of martial artists that train to defend again an attacker that doesn't move.

John,

Thanks for that picture! This is a great thread and I enjoy hearing the differences in the material! I hope to continue!

Yes, the angle term is just like the clock principle. It was a help, as now it lets me visualize things better. I agree with what you said about taking the other hand into consideration. Additionally, the idea of wrapping the arm with the method I described, proved difficult, at least for myself anyways.

Going on what you said about the other hand, if we look at #2, its pretty much the same risk, as far as I can tell.

Mike

 

[Jdokan]

First...Awesome use of the 8pt pattern....I NEVER thought to number them..I've always professed the need to understand the use of these angles but the numbers are great!!! With your blessiing I'll incorporate that into my workouts...
What I have done is take what my teacher used to profess: get control of the punch..first. Don't anticipate or you'll walk into a strike...With that, since I have left his organization and working out on my own I am reviewing all my combo's and listening to his words...
Here's my #1:
From a natural stance (feet a little less than your shoulders) I do a R/hand Knife hand block to the wrist (my first strike), I "bounce" from there to their R/eye socket, my L/hand does a spearpoke to the throat/carotid. At this point I expect these strikes to move him back a little if not my 9mm comes out...At this point I lunuge after him using my left hand to lacerate the eyes/face (tiger claw) I continue to move into wrapping the arm as my R/hand strikes the L/eye/temple again stealing the vision, the hand continues striking their shoulder disrupting their balance, I also do the wrist strike to the whatever is available...center of face, temple, etc depending on how he reacts. My strike after the strike pulls back towards the shoulder just enaoough to again attack the throat. I like to grab the windpipe...I don't do the hawk down of old...I prefer to bend him over backwards getting him off balance I then do a #1 pinan 1/2 moon with my R/foot striking his legs as I push his throat to the floor...tear out the throat and finish with Front Punch face/ Sword to throat.....go back on guard..............
Now with that said the reason I changed the opening move was I had it leaning step right to 3:00 R/palming the strike as a simultaneous L/inverted palm hits the face...I always felt I was walking into the possibility of his L/hand....Plus that face strike always felt weak..

We will mess around with double strikes (r/l) when we do our combinations sometimes...not always but mixed in....we also change the step in for the UKI...once with the left foot in then once with the right foor in.....etc...

see you Saturday.....feel the excitement??? kinda like days before Christmas.....

 

[RevIV]

When I was at Sensei Evans school it was def. funny when he asked me to show how i did combo #1. Now i do not know the Kosho principles but i was like, No problem, attack me with a right kick, right then left hook. We were on the same page with our thoughts, in the manner that not many people were worrying about the Left hand. John, did you place those numbers there or where they part of Hanshi Juchnik's? I ask because I just use the #'s on the clock.
Jesse

 

[Kosho-Monk]

John, did you place those numbers there or where they part of Hanshi Juchnik's? I ask because I just use the #'s on the clock.
Jesse

The number pattern is from Hanshi Juchnik. I'm not sure if he numbered it that way or if Mitose told him to have it numbered that way.


-John

 

[sksk]

The octagon differs from the clock principle in application and theory.

The sei Kosho Shorei kai website further elaborates.

All the best

George