Skipping dan rank...

[karate-dragon]

I don't think that a governing body that was too pervasive to control every dan test would work. But in an ideal world it would be nice to have a governing board to appeal to when blatant abuses were noticed. Again, when a highly renowned "master" gives out dan ranks simply to fulfill a criteria of what dan person can rub an offshoot school for the purpose of putting more schools under him and oh, did I mention, more money? Perhaps what would work is if people just could see through this veil and not go to these schools. But as we know, the novice is often drawn in when they don't know enough one way or the other to evaluate a school and get drawn in and assume that the school knows what it is doing and can actuallt teach then something. Again, none of this is detrimental to the good schools or to thse who honestly learn and study. That can never be taken away from us.

 

[Jdokan]

Is it "skipping ranks" or being validated that your rank is being higher than what you may currently have.....I find nothing wrong with that Personally, it has never happened to me I have struggled for each one...
Look at some of our most prestigious Seniors and you'll find skipping ranks or whatever you want to call it happening....
If some very senior rank can assess your skills at 6th dan and you're currently 4th and he feels that you fit the bill....what is wrong with that...after all it is his reputation that he is handing out.....I have not had any personal experiences of knowing dan rankings that were "given away".....

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Not me. Shodan will yet be one of the most significant times of my life. It is absolutely essential for me to go through the proper steps. I don't see why someone would cheat themselves except receiving the menkyo kaiden as heir to the soke. You're as good as you are anyway, why not put the time in? I heard this on a couple of occasions so don't quote me but it is of my understanding that traditionally it becomes more political and less technical after fifth dan where beyond it is expected that you contribute officially to the art, moreso depending on your rank. I beleive, if this has some truth to it, the politics may warrant certain rankings but then, I thought that's what shihan was for. A title that is usually but not always applied with sixth dan and up denoting a teacher of teachers (I think). I think the dan level is personal and politics have no place to interfere except to certify the rank of the student so as to offer solid evidence and credential. My $.02.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

On the other hand I'm not a big stickler for belts...a lot of competent MA wear them though...

 

[qi-tah]

I apologize; that came through much more abruptly than I intended. With the exception of black belt testing, we rarely schedule tests in my school. Students don't receive special focus and training to prepare; instead, they are expected to be able to test when (and if) we decide it's time.

No worries mate, sounds like the misunderstanding grew out of the difference in how our respective schools approach grading. For us, we know months in advance when grading days are and it is up to us as students to decide whether we want to grade or not. Our teacher gives us guidance in that respect, but it's really about us learning how to self-assess our own training. About a month out from grading, people realy start to concentrate on whatever their grading material is, and the new material in class slows down to allow us to do that. I love training all year, but i find this month particualy fruitful.

What I meant by suggesting that you train constantly as if you are about to be graded is just that; focus on whatever form or exercise or drill you're working with the same energy and attention you would give it were you about to be graded on it, rather than waiting for your instructor to say that "grading is in 3 weeks; let's study this..."

Part of advancing in your own training is separating from that external motivation; learning to recognize the things you need to work on, then doing them. I've literally "rebuilt" basic forms, starting with stance exercises, moving to punching practice, and so on, in order to refine and self-correct myself, bringing fresh attention to each part.

I'd say we were on the same page here... tho i suspect that you are rather more advanced than myself with the internal motavation thing! :asian: I suspect one of the reasons that i find gradings to be such a powerful motavator is that i am terrified of public performance... i have to know my material inside out and develop intense focus just so i don't pass out from anxiety!

As to breakthroughs just before grading... A black belt seldom knows much more the day after they are tested and promoted than the day before. (Occasionally the testing process produces a major awakening... but the truth is, it's rare.) Instead, the breakthrough happened some time before, and the testing is often just a way to recognize and demonstrate that they've reached that you've reached that level.

You know, last night i was thinking about this stuff and came to the conclusion that the "re-grading" thing i threw out there could probably be more easily acheived with 2-3 appropriately spaced private lessons. Doh! But somehow i still like the idea of messing with the structure of gradings... it doesn't seem to matter what system it is, there only seems to be one direction you can go in and that's up. (Demotion?? I've never seen it, but i guess it could happen) What if the grading system was like a tree that you could branch out on, rather than just a ladder? what would that do to the mentality that many ppl hold toward grading and rank?

Probably horribly OT now so off to pull my head in...

 

[zDom]

To me, ranking is kind of like currency.

Sure you can always print more, but then you actually drop its value when compared with other currencies.

Just my opinion ...

 

[Brandon Fisher]

To me, ranking is kind of like currency.

Sure you can always print more, but then you actually drop its value when compared with other currencies.

Just my opinion ...

Interesting comparison. But makes sense.

 

[matt.m]

I have not seen skip rank grading or passing a dan grade. Honestly, I only truly care what goes on in MSK. Not to sound harsh or anything but there is way too much going on within our org. to worry about how other people promote.

 

[jim777]

Stone Dragon I have seen it and do not understand it, why would anybody want something they have not earned...

I don't think you can automatically assume the rank hasn't been earned if the rank is awarded. If it happened all the time that would certainly raise eyebrows, but as a once off I think you need to give the instructor doing the skipping the benefit of the doubt.

 

[MJS]

I have heard of many situations where someone skips one or two kyu ranks, sometimes even grading directly into a system based on previous experience and demonstrated knowledge of that system's material.

I have heard of fewer less, but still some, situations where a person has been promoted within dan ranks with a jump (i.e. 1st dan to third or third to fifth, etc).

Has anyone here heard of such tings?

Has anyone here experienced such things?

Does it raise anyone's blood pressure just reading about it?

I'm sure it happens. Off the top of my head, I can't recall any. Is it right? IMO, no! Regardless of whether or not there is an actual physical test, or, once you reach the higher levels, its more of contributions to the art, I feel that each level should be earned.

Its like I always say, its the person and what they can do that impresses me, not the number of stripes on their belt. If you're wearing a high rank, you should be able to live up to that rank.

Mike

 

[kingkong89]

of course i have been in martial arts over a decade and have seen many instances of this. i know of one case where ther was a sensei who left his dojo and one of his black belts took over and was promoted to a higher rank just because of the title. but remember ALWAYS REMEMBER it is not the rank or title it is the persons state of mind.

 

[James Kovacich]

I have heard of many situations where someone skips one or two kyu ranks, sometimes even grading directly into a system based on previous experience and demonstrated knowledge of that system's material.

I have heard of fewer less, but still some, situations where a person has been promoted within dan ranks with a jump (i.e. 1st dan to third or third to fifth, etc).

Has anyone here heard of such tings?

Has anyone here experienced such things?

Does it raise anyone's blood pressure just reading about it?

In June 1958, Kanei Uechi held the first dan test and awarded the first belt ranks in Uechi ryu karate. Students of Kanbun Uechi such as Seiko Toyama and Seiyu Shinjo were promoted to Godan (fifth degree) while others received first through fourth degree promotions depending on their seniority and ability.
http://www.uechi-ryu.org.uk/History page.htm

July 1959, Kanei Uechi was awarded the Master Instructor Certificate by Ryuyu Tomoyose.

In February 1967, Kanei, at age fifty-six, was promoted to Hanshi Judan (tenth degree) by the Japanese Karate-do Federation, Zen Nihon Karate-do Renmei.

 

[arnisador]

In June 1958, Kanei Uechi held the first dan test and awarded the first belt ranks in Uechi ryu karate. Students of Kanbun Uechi such as Seiko Toyama and Seiyu Shinjo were promoted to Godan (fifth degree) while others received first through fourth degree promotions depending on their seniority and ability.

Great example of an exceptional case.

I have also seen cases where people drifted away from the organized aspects of an art because of org. politics and practiced and taught the art quietly on their own for decades. When they eventually re-joined an org. that they found acceptable, they were given ranks matching their ability and their time in the art. There are cases where this is OK, in my opinion.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Personally I don't like the idea of skipping ranks, especially black belt ranks. However I do believe there are times when it is justified.
1) When your instructor or your organization whom you belong to promotes you.

I guess thats it.

Because if your instructor (for whatever reason) decides that you are worthy of a higher rank than who ware we to say no sir/madam you are wrong I'm not worthy?

If you are an instructor in an organization and that organization decides that you are worthy of higher rank, again who are we to say we are not.

Do we not trust them and their judgement? We trust them on other things, how to do this technique or that, this defense will work or not etc. etc. But why not when it comes to our grading and our abilites?

Submitted with repsect
Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

Below black belt rank skipping rank I don't think is really a big deal depending upon the student level. For instance the system I was brought up in had orange belt as our first rank. When having to teach children became such apart of the school's programs then stripes or intermediate grades where added. Some schools added full belt ranks but again that just stretched out the program.

So after years of not teaching, I start a teaching again, things have changed since I last taught. I decide to have a yellow belt and a gold belt prior to orange belt for my youngest class, however for my older class I only test them for orange. Am I skipping grades here? Not really they are learning the same material it's just that the younger ones are having it broken down more for them.

If a school adopts belts for each level adding purple, camo, rainbow, whatever colored belt you want and I test only for say orange, green, blue, brown (4 levels) and black then am I skipping rank or levels? I don't think so.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

Going back to my first post

I have been promoted in two different arts and have skipped dan rank. Neither ranking I asked for or tested for. The instructors felt it was time for promotion.

Now the first time it happened to me the instructor who only visits this country once in every few years asked me once what rank I thought I should have. I told him the rank of which he thought I was worthy (I was caught off guard here) not understanding he was going to promote me. At the end of the seminar he promoted me in his system and I had skipped a rank. Now prior to this he had signed off on my 1st and 2nd black belt rank years prior. So he knew my skill and had seen me over the years and knew I was continuing my training.

The second time was with my original instructor. The man whom I have been associated with since the begining of my journey in the martial arts 26 years ago. He tested me for my first orange belt. He tested me for Shodan and Nidan, sat on my first black belt test board (as a guest instructor) in Arnis, and even though I don't train much under him anymore, I still am his student and he is still my instructor. When I was invited to a test this past year all of his senior students were promoted. Unbeknownst to me I was included and I skipped a dan grade.

Neither of these men got anything out of promoting me really. Who am I to say I don't want this rank, take it back, demote me? Should I have said no sensei you have made a mistake you skipped me? While I felt awkward about the promotions, I had others tell me I deserved them and they were glad for me.

While I am not as fit and young as I once was, I still train, teach and still continue to attend various seminars in different arts all to continue learning. I am not really concerned with what rank I hold. I don't wear stripes on my belts, I don't make people call me by a title. But I would be dishonoring my instructors if I told them, No I won't accept the rank, I'm not worthy, take it away, you made a mistake.

Submitted with respect
Mark

 

[tshadowchaser]

This is not meant to reflect on anyone who has posted but is a general view of skipping ranks:

There are cases where an instructor can reward a student for exceptional knowledge and devotion to a system/style. I can agree with these promotions as the instructor knows what he sees and knows what he wants people to know and do at that rank.
There are also cases where someone is promoted just to give him/her rank within an organization that makes the organization look like it has more higher ranking members or because the person giving the rank also receives a rank in the others organization. This I can not agree with.
There are also times when an organization has held members to low dan ranks for whatever reason and then the head of the organization dies and the new head promotes everyone or certain members to higher ranks and gives the organization more room for growth in the ranks. This can be a good thing or a bad one . Some of these people promoted this way may well deserve the rank and wear it proudly but still with humility but others may wear it as a badge of how great they are and strut around like peacocks forever after.

 

[pczerwin]

Hi there. Hope you don't mind my opinion. I have also seen some promoted based on things other than skill or even time put in but the way I look at it, you can either wear your belt or be your belt. Yes, when I have put the time in, I want to be acknowledged for that and it is unfair that I put in twice as much work and someone else can walk in the door with the look of the moment and end up almost as high a rank as I am, for a fraction of the time but then there are also those that no matter how much time you put in, give you little or no respect for it. Bottom line, it is a lose lose situation but I know, I am my belt - and that means a heck of a lot more than how many stripes I have on it. By the way, as you know, once your are a black belt, at least so far as tournament goes, black is black, so what is the difference. And when you do reach that rank, you better be prepared to look and act like a black belt. So if there are some out there who think they can handle that responsibility before most are ready, good luck to them but I know I wear the belt I am worthy of and that is all that should matter. Just for the record however, it is lousy that things like this happen and yes it makes me mad at times. Gotta breath in and let it go when that happens! Besides, people like that never hang around for too long anyway.

Pamela