Another Rank Discussion: Asking For It

[bluewaveschool]

To throw something at the TKD guys out there... besides forms, did you learn any new techniques after you gained your BB? From 1st dan to 2nd dan, I didn't learn anything 'new'. What we did (and do) focus on is refining our techniques and exploring and decoding form movements. Is there really a reason for the extreme time in rank requirements of some orgs if this is the case? What is someone going to learn in the 5 year span from 4th to 5th that they possibly won't learn in the first 2 years?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

To throw something at the TKD guys out there... besides forms, did you learn any new techniques after you gained your BB? From 1st dan to 2nd dan, I didn't learn anything 'new'. What we did (and do) focus on is refining our techniques and exploring and decoding form movements. Is there really a reason for the extreme time in rank requirements of some orgs if this is the case? What is someone going to learn in the 5 year span from 4th to 5th that they possibly won't learn in the first 2 years?

Just forms. Our school threw in weapon forms to keep things interesting, but again, still just forms.

Of course, just forms covers quite a lot. The exploring and decoding of forms is pretty substantial; having several years to deepen one's knowledge of the forms that they have already learned and to hone the technique they have already learned is, frankly, more significant than just learning of new techniques.

Regarding new techniques, post-geub grade taekwondo forms do contain techniques, and there are techniques in the post ildan forms that are not present in the geub grade forms, so saying that 'you only learn forms' would be misleading in that it implies that there is no new technique whatsoever.

In our hapkido curriculum, we do learn a lot of new material after first dan; empty handed knife defenses, knife defenses with a belt, empty handed gun defenses, sword take aways, self defense with a cane, and the use of several weapons as well; all of this is taught in the dan grades.

Daniel

 

[bluewaveschool]

Well, true, 'new' techniques are always to be found in a new form. We don't do weapons, and we've learned knife/staff/stick defense by BB.

 

[chrispillertkd]

OK. I don't think the distinction is important for this discussion.

I have to disagree. You asked if we could recognize that "the standards/requirements are mutable." I demonstrated that we can in fact do so by pointing out that minimum time in grade requirements are just that: minimums. It's quite possible to not hold people to that minimum standard but rather have them train for longer periods of time.

In all my years in Taekwon-Do I know of one person who got a dan promotion early who I thought was actually deserving of it as he is one of the best technicians I have seen, has an unbelievably in-depth knowledge of the art, has a good grasp on the philosophical side of Taekwon-Do, etc. But he is the exception, not the rule. I also know several people who have tested (and passed) for dan ranks early who are simply uninspiring in one or all of these areas. Speaking from my own personal experience, the bad far outweighs the good in this area.

It's just semantics however admirable this person might be for surmounting his handicap. If the syllabus has a reverse punch in it and he can't do one, by definition some personal accommodation is being made for him.

You had asked: "Why is this different from shaving some length off time-in-grade for those ready to advance? Surely there is some room for customization and individualism for the exceptional in one way or another?" That is the question I was answering: why there is a difference between those two things. Taking into account the disability the gentleman without arms had would argue for an even longer time in grade exactly because of his disability and having to acquire skills at dodging, jumping, sliding and otherwise evading attacks that people with arms could deal with via blocking, along with a host of other skills I'm sure I haven't even considered because I'm not in that position. It's the exact opposite of reducing time requirements.

The premise seems simple enough to me. A nidan has the appropriate level of knowledge and skill for a higher rank. The only thing he is missing is time-in-grade. Is missing this sufficient in of itself to say no to a promotion? Sounds like you would nix the promotion?

Since one of the things required for advancing in rank is a minimum time requirement, yes I would nix the promotion. If rank isn't important, who cares if he's not promoted? He shouldn't. And is he does then he doesn't get that rank isn't important and therefore needs more time to truly learn this lesson. In fact, one way of imparting it might be to reduce his rank if he asks to be promoted early. If rank isn't important it shouldn't matter what rank he is. If he has a problem with the rank he's been given (I won't saw "earned" since for this conversation rank is unimportant and so may be given away frivilously) he can perhaps better learn this lesson by being demoted. What does it matter if rank is unimportant?

I understand the difference is important to you and that you believe asking to be taught something new is disrespectful. I do not. I am close enough to my teacher to be trusted as a custodian of the system and I can freely ask him any technical question that might come to mind and I can likewise have my choice of topics when I see him in person for lessons.

Yes, I can do those things as well with my teacher. In fact, I have often asked him technical questions both while I was with him in class, in private lessons, or simply calling him on the phone since I no longer live in the same town as he does. He's always gone out of his way to give me an answer and make sure I understand it. There have also been times when he's actually asked me for my input on technical issues.

What I would not do, however, is take it upon myself to determine that it's time for him to teach me something new. It's not my place to do so and there is a big difference betwen these two things.

Following his example, I would not take it amiss if one of my own senior students asked to be taught something specific that I have not taught before. Why would I? If he is a senior student, then he has progressed to a reasonable level of skill and personal maturity and he has earned the privilege to help shape some of his own martial education.

Students always shape at least part of their own education, whether it's in the martial arts or any field. That's not being questioned. But taking it upon oneself to ask to be taught something new is telling the instructor that they know better than he does. Which may, in fact, be the case in some circumstances. But if it is, then why are they still a student of that instructor?

Pax,

Chris

 

[Blade96]

Well I could ask for a rank...but then my sifu would just stare at me funny and likely laugh since we don't have any ranks

Cute, Xue.

btw I was just thinking of this very subject! see my senseis recommended against me sparring in the tournament. and somehow the topic got to things disrespectful to your teacher and students asking to be graded came up and I was like, Huh.....I never even heard of students asking to get promoted before. I thought tests are the teachers job.

So, I was gonna make a topic on some forum about what people thought of students who ask for a grading or a promotion.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So, I was gonna make a topic on some forum about what people thought of students who ask for a grading or a promotion.

Dancingalone is telepathic and decided to grand your wish.

Daniel

 

[Blade96]

Dancingalone is telepathic and decided to grand your wish.

Daniel

Heh. It seems so :uhyeah:

 

[Milt G.]

Hello,
Traditionally, and generally, one should never ask for, or refuse a promoton from one's teacher.

Asking for the opportunity to test is different then asking for a promotion, in my opinion.

If you have a teacher with good motivation skills, sensitivity and insight (which teachers should have) you should always be on track to receive any promotions you are eligible for without asking. Of course, you do have to work for them.

Sadly, there are some teachers that use the ranking system in ways other then it was intended. Teachers are people, and as such, there are many different types. Technical skill, alone, should not be used as a guide when choosing a teacher.

Just my 1.5 cents.
Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hello,
Traditionally, and generally, one should never ask for, or refuse a promoton from one's teacher.

This is probably a good topic for another thread, but I'll at least mention it here. While I do agree with you, suppose the promotion being given also come with you being asked to pay out a large sum of money, say anywhere from three to eight hundred dollars? Assuming that you can afford it, is it really appropriate for a master to lay that on a student?

And I do not mean a situation where the master says, 'hey, I feel that you are ready to test, but there are association fees of _____ hundred dollars, so whenever you have the resources, let me know,' but a situation of, 'I'm promoting you to ____th degree and the test is on __/__/2010. You'll need _____ hundred dollars.'

Seen it happen. Found it frankly disturbing and made me lose a lot of respect for the master who was involved.

Daniel

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Daniel,

In my personal opinion there should be no fees charged at all for a rank test! I think a students dues, blood, sweat and tears should be what counts! I think when a fee is required it takes a little away from the test!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel,

In my personal opinion there should be no fees charged at all for a rank test! I think a students dues, blood, sweat and tears should be what counts! I think when a fee is required it takes a little away from the test!

I agree 100% and do not charge my own students for tests. For the purpose of not sidetracking this thread, I have started a separate thread: http://www.martialtalk.com//forum/showthread.php?p=1340100#post1340100

Daniel

 

[jks9199]

Daniel,

In my personal opinion there should be no fees charged at all for a rank test! I think a students dues, blood, sweat and tears should be what counts! I think when a fee is required it takes a little away from the test!

I actually don't mind a REASONABLE fee, especially for black belts. But that fee should be tied to costs or paying membership fees for the association, not lining someone's pockets. If you've got to pay for a testing panel to come in, reserve a facility, and so on... Yeah, charge candidates a bit to cover it. But that's about all...

 

[Blade96]

Daniel,

In my personal opinion there should be no fees charged at all for a rank test! I think a students dues, blood, sweat and tears should be what counts! I think when a fee is required it takes a little away from the test!

but we only pay only a little fee. Just $25 for a kyu test.

I think a little fee is ok. It all helps to pay for stuff like renting our building where the dojo is and tournaments and medals and............

 

[chrispillertkd]

Our system is so broad, with so many different unarmed systems, different weapons, different areas of knowledge seperate from that, and so on, that it's not uncommon for a student to ask "when will we learn "X"?"

This was how it was when I was studying Praying Mantis. Since there are no ranks in traditional Kung-Fu the answer to the question of when you get to learn something is simple: when the Sifu teaches it to you.

You do not ask to learn new material even though there is no ranking system. I'd have to say that asking to learn new things was looked down upon probably more in Kung-Fu than it is in Taekwon-Do.

Really, Chris, I think it comes down to the breadth of the system we study. For example, I love spear, and over the last 17-18 years, I have trained it exactly twice in class. I have, however, trained it rather extensively privately, but the point is that if you just wait for what you are interested in, there's no guaratee when you may get to it. And, being Westerners, wanting immediate gratification, coming into an art such as Ninjutsu it's really not uncommon to have particular interests and desires in training. So asking about that aspect is something that I encourage, and if I deem that the student can get something out of it, I'll take them through some of it. If not, I'll explain that as well.

Praying Mantis has quite a breadth to it, too. But that's irrelevant. It's not the student's place to ask for material. It's the instrutor's job to determine who will benefit from what instruction.

As for there being no guarantee that one would get to train in a specific area they're interested in, there are a few things things that should be taken into consideration in this regard:

Firstly, and most importantly, life is unfair. Sometimes you don't get what you want.

Secondly, as I already pointed out, it's quite acceptable (and not uncommon in more traditional arts, I'd say) to use a bit of circumlocution to "feel out" the instructor. This is a way in which both parties can make their positions known without putting undue pressure on the instructor and without the instructor having to simply turn down the student.

Thirdly, what's wrong with people learning that the desire for immediate gratification isn't necessarily a good thing? Isn't part of martial arts training about learning self-control? I'd certainly say that learning patience is part of that.

Add to all of that the non-technical aspects (such as the Togakure Ryu stealth aspects, meteorology etc), the modern approach we teach as well, additional knowledge based on things such as my own personal research, including other systems and weaponry, and so on, and it's easy to see why a student may ask about something they are interested in. We obviously can't cover all of this in a single class, or even a single year...

Which is only part of the reason why MA training is a life-long endeavor.

Pax,

Chris

 

[seasoned]

I am sure most of us say rank is unimportant and it would be unseemly to ask for it. That said, could any of you see a situation where it might be acceptable?

Suppose we have student X who is opening his own school. He is a mere nidan or 2nd degree and the majority of the school owners in his area have higher rank in their systems, sometimes greatly so. Would it be inappropriate for the student to humbly approach his teacher and ask for a promotion to 3rd dan? How about a double jump to 4th dan which would break the group's custom regarding time in grade? For the purposes of discussion, let's assume he has received all of the material within the system already, so there is no 'missing' knowledge.

Perhaps we can also look at from the perspective of the teacher. If the student has been a model, loyal pupil, shouldn't the teacher owe it to him to bypass some of the 'rules'?

Just a topic for discussion... it's not necessarily a personal dilemma of mine. And those of you who don't use rank in your system, well good for you!

Generally, it would be Godan (5th) to open your own dojo, in my style. That being said, there are different requirements attached to other styles and organizations. One of the most important teachings for martial arts, is learned through promotions to higher rank. Even thou rank should not hold the most importance in our training, it does teach patience. To ask your Sensei to move you to the next rank, shows a lack of this most required element. There are certain qualities I look for in the higher dan ranks. You said, let's assume he has received all of the material within the system already, so there is no 'missing' knowledge. IMHO, within the black belt ranks, is where the dan holder begins to demonstrate the qualities most important to martial arts, that they them self will pass down to their students. Technical ability, is but one. IMO:asian:

 

[Chris Parker]

Hey Chris,

Our system is so broad, with so many different unarmed systems, different weapons, different areas of knowledge seperate from that, and so on, that it's not uncommon for a student to ask "when will we learn "X"?"

This was how it was when I was studying Praying Mantis. Since there are no ranks in traditional Kung-Fu the answer to the question of when you get to learn something is simple: when the Sifu teaches it to you.

You do not ask to learn new material even though there is no ranking system. I'd have to say that asking to learn new things was looked down upon probably more in Kung-Fu than it is in Taekwon-Do.

Not uncommon for Chinese systems from what I've seen there. And, it must be said, not uncommon across the board for Japanese systems as well (specific things held back until certain requirements and ranking/licencing have been achieved). Of course, I teach Westerners, so I recognise that and act accordingly.

Really, Chris, I think it comes down to the breadth of the system we study. For example, I love spear, and over the last 17-18 years, I have trained it exactly twice in class. I have, however, trained it rather extensively privately, but the point is that if you just wait for what you are interested in, there's no guaratee when you may get to it. And, being Westerners, wanting immediate gratification, coming into an art such as Ninjutsu it's really not uncommon to have particular interests and desires in training. So asking about that aspect is something that I encourage, and if I deem that the student can get something out of it, I'll take them through some of it. If not, I'll explain that as well.

Praying Mantis has quite a breadth to it, too. But that's irrelevant. It's not the student's place to ask for material. It's the instrutor's job to determine who will benefit from what instruction.

Respectfully, that is the way it is in your school. With us the vast range encourages questions. Tong Long, broad though it is (my Chief Instructor trained in it years ago, and he's spoken about it a few times), is still one system. I'm teaching 6+, unarmed and weapons, plus more. And, again, with us nothing is "held back", there isn't really a ranking requirement for any information or technique, as the individual techniques teach something different to everyone, depending on their rank and experience.

And I'm in agreement that it's the instructors call, and it remains so with me. As I said, if I don't feel that the student should be taught something (for whatever reason), then I don't. But I do take the time to explain why as well.

As for there being no guarantee that one would get to train in a specific area they're interested in, there are a few things things that should be taken into consideration in this regard:

Firstly, and most importantly, life is unfair. Sometimes you don't get what you want.

Yep, true. And there is nothing that says just because they ask that they automatically are going to be taught it. For example, there are quite a few things that I know that I don't teach for a range of reasons, and wouldn't even if asked.

Secondly, as I already pointed out, it's quite acceptable (and not uncommon in more traditional arts, I'd say) to use a bit of circumlocution to "feel out" the instructor. This is a way in which both parties can make their positions known without putting undue pressure on the instructor and without the instructor having to simply turn down the student.

Let's see if I can explain this. I encourage asking, it shows enthusiasm and interest. However that is not the only prerequisite. I also need to see the student applying themselves to the rest of the lessons, if that isn't happening, then there's no chance they'll get anything else!

As well as that, my responce will be dictated by such things as well. I may tell them that I can take them through it, but they have things they need to work on first. I may telll them that they aren't in a position for what they are asking for to really have any benefit, so no. I may (and often do) ask why they want to learn whatever they are asking for (and if they don't have an answer, I tell them to come back when they have one). Or I may actually take them through some aspects of it, but in a way that quickly demontrates that they aren't really in a position to learn it. That's when I need to make a point.

Thirdly, what's wrong with people learning that the desire for immediate gratification isn't necessarily a good thing? Isn't part of martial arts training about learning self-control? I'd certainly say that learning patience is part of that.

I'd agree. And again, just because they ask isn't any guarantee that they'll recieve it. In fact, the most common answer to "when will we learn X?" is "I have that planned for Y", or "I don't have that planned yet, but it'll probably come up at some point. Last time we covered it was Z years ago".

Add to all of that the non-technical aspects (such as the Togakure Ryu stealth aspects, meteorology etc), the modern approach we teach as well, additional knowledge based on things such as my own personal research, including other systems and weaponry, and so on, and it's easy to see why a student may ask about something they are interested in. We obviously can't cover all of this in a single class, or even a single year...

Which is only part of the reason why MA training is a life-long endeavor.

Pax,

Chris

That it is.