Another Rank Discussion: Asking For It

[dancingalone]

A couple of reasons:

1) Part of rank is taking the necessary time to acquire this knowledge, the skills necessary to correctly put said knowledge into physical application, the ability to transmit this knowledge to others, and the philosophical underpinnings of the art (the principles of the physical techniques, strategy and tactics inherent to the style, and a certain philosophical development of the individual, viz. their internalization of whatever way goes to making your marticular martial art and art).

2) It's not the student's place to ask the teacher to be advanced. It's the teacher's role to train the student and, when he judges enough progress has been made, put the student through a series of tests to see if they are ready for a new rank (this can be done at a formal testing, through time as a series of tests in class that the student might not even be aware of, a combination of these two approaches or something else). The student should be concerned about diligently practicing what his instructor has given him, not about asking for more material that the instructor hasn't seen fit to give him yet.

3) Regardless of how systematic a particular teaching method inherent to a particular style is MA training will often appear piecemeal since a person will often not be ready to absorb particular lessons until a certain amount of time is spent physically training and getting the movements ingrained in their physical memory so that their body can perform not just the movements but the concepts underlying the movements.

4) Just because something is valuable doesn't mean it should be, or even can be, imparted "as quickly as possible" if by that you mean quickly. Often times, valuable things take a long time to acquire.

Your post is a particularly good one. All great points.

But then, I would argue that if rank really isn't important then there is no reason not to award it quickly, or even frivilously. (Which raises the question of: if people don't think rank is important why all the uproar about "belt mills"? But, again, that's another conversation.) Using your example I am still unsure of what would prevent the instructor from awarding his 1st dan student a high dan rank, higher than all of his competitors, or even from preventing the 1st dan to simply award himself that rank. If rank isn't important why not make yourself a 10th dan?

Can there be a balance between the two extremes? Can we acknowledge that rank is important and should be handled with conscientious respect, yet at the same time we also realize that standards/requirements are mutable instead of being rigid?

Many of us would modify the strict technical requirements for a belt if a student is physically incapable of performing them, like perhaps a disabled person should not be asked to do the flying kicks in TKD. Why is this different from shaving some length off time-in-grade for those ready to advance? Surely there is some room for customization and individualism for the exceptional in one way or another?

Asking the instructor to teach them something or answering the instructor's query about what they want to learn? There is a vast difference between those two things. I honestly cannot imagine me approaching either of my instructors and asking them to teach me specific things. It's not my business to set the "lesson plan," it's up to them to to determine what they want to teach me, taking into consideration my previous training, my strengths, my weaknesses, and what they think I would benefit from learning next. I will at times ask them to watch me as I work on a particular pattern, kick, etc. but these are things they've already taught me and I am just asking for further critiquing.

Personally, your example of asking to learn a specific kata (for instance) - without further qualification - strikes me as being, well, rude.

If my instructors asked me what I wanted to work on during a private lesson, for example, I would offer input about what I would like to practice, but the question itself could be a means of testing me. Perhaps they want to see if I was aware of what I needed to work on as they were. The question itself can be seen as a way for the instructor to gauge the strudent's advancement.

I don't think it is a one case fits all situation. It would indeed be presumptuous for a a relative beginner to ask for specific instruction in a topic they are not prepared for. Yet when I make my quarterly visit to my own teacher, he grants me a wide latitude in picking my own lessons. I have earned the privilege. Similarly I give my top students a degree of the same independence to pick their own lessons and improvements.

 

[dancingalone]

If rank conveys skill and knowledgte of the system, then no.
Because otherwise what is the point of testing for it in the other cases?
And if he were to get a 'free' pass, how would he be able to teach what he was supposed to have learned before getting that grade?

Yeah, I already said above for purposes of discussion you should assume that the student has received all of the system already. The question isn't about readiness or skill. It's simply about is it OK to ask for a jump in rank and what situations aside from knowledge/skill would or wouldn't make it appropriate.

 

[dancingalone]

While rank is not always reflective of one's actual skill, it generally is reflective of time. Time spent training is time spent training, and like cubic inches, there is no substitute. That is what I meant by being able to tell that a skipped yondan holder is not of the appropriate skill level. Not that their skill isn't good, so to speak, and not that they cannot handle themselves with other yondans in, say a tournament setting. But there is something subjectively different about the way one practices when they've had three to five or more years of practice than the guy next to them.

Average time-in-grade is only consistent within the same organization. It can vary greatly across organizations and even martial arts systems. For example, my niece graded to second dan about 18 months after achieving her 1st degree in TKD. Meanwhile, it took me 6 years to make the same jump in Goju-ryu karate. That was about the average span in my teacher's personal group; I know some other Goju groups would grade a bit faster. I definitely agree that time-in-grade is generally a good thing - it seasons us and lets us advance qualitatively even if the belt rank isn't always a match.

 

[dancingalone]

we had a situation like this where I train recently. We had a first dan instructor who had 4 classes a week at different venues. Our club generally does not allow anyone under 4th dan to instruct but this particular instructor is also a school teacher and personal trainer and was available to take the classes at a time when we are struggling to get higher ranks who want to instruct (the majority of our 4th dans and above just want to train as often as they can and have no interest in instructing and we have about 30 training venues in my area alone). This instructor actually aproached the powers that be and asked if they could grade early as they felt they were ready, always attended black belt class and thought it would add some credibility to them as an instructor to potential clientel by having the extra stripe on the belt. At our club there is a 2 year wait from 1st to 2nd dan and all they wanted was a 6 month repreive. After much deliberation the club came back with a solid "no". They had to wait. Me, personally, I was very happy with their decision because once they make the exception once it opens a can of worms and there becomes a grey area. Rules are rules in my opinion.

To me this would a perfect example of when the 'rules' should be waived. They exist to maintain good martial arts, not to be tablets from the mountain in of themselves.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Average time-in-grade is only consistent within the same organization. It can vary greatly across organizations and even martial arts systems. For example, my niece graded to second dan about 18 months after achieving her 1st degree in TKD. Meanwhile, it took me 6 years to make the same jump in Goju-ryu karate. That was about the average span in my teacher's personal group; I know some other Goju groups would grade a bit faster. I definitely agree that time-in-grade is generally a good thing - it seasons us and lets us advance qualitatively even if the belt rank isn't always a match.

Absolutely agree, but I'm not sure what in my post you were responding to, as there has been no comparison made to other organizations.

If it takes six years from first to second in Goju, then there is no substitute for that six years (assuming six years of consistent dedicated training). Whatever the time in grade is normally within Goju from second to fourth, be it six years or fifteen years (again, I'm talking about consistent dedicated training throughout), there is no substitute for it.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Absolutely agree, but I'm not sure what in my post you were responding to, as there has been no comparison made to other organizations.

It was more or less a stream-of-consciousness outpouring. No implication meant by quoting your words other than it also was a time-in-grade remark.

If it takes six years from first to second in Goju, then there is no substitute for that six years (assuming six years of consistent dedicated training). Whatever the time in grade is normally within Goju from second to fourth, be it six years or fifteen years (again, I'm talking about consistent dedicated training throughout), there is no substitute for it.

I'll offer up the idea that organization guidelines are by definition for the normal and customary cases. They do not address exceptional cases. Just because it took me 6 years to reach that readiness stage in my teacher's eyes doesn't mean that someone else might very well make the same mark in much less time.

 

[MJS]

I am sure most of us say rank is unimportant and it would be unseemly to ask for it. That said, could any of you see a situation where it might be acceptable?

Suppose we have student X who is opening his own school. He is a mere nidan or 2nd degree and the majority of the school owners in his area have higher rank in their systems, sometimes greatly so. Would it be inappropriate for the student to humbly approach his teacher and ask for a promotion to 3rd dan? How about a double jump to 4th dan which would break the group's custom regarding time in grade? For the purposes of discussion, let's assume he has received all of the material within the system already, so there is no 'missing' knowledge.

Perhaps we can also look at from the perspective of the teacher. If the student has been a model, loyal pupil, shouldn't the teacher owe it to him to bypass some of the 'rules'?

Just a topic for discussion... it's not necessarily a personal dilemma of mine. And those of you who don't use rank in your system, well good for you!

I've always been a believer that when you're ready, you'll get promoted. Personally, I'm not a fan of asking for rank. Now, I suppose we can look at this a few different ways.

1) How long has it been since the last promotion? 2-3yrs? 10yrs? If its only been a few years, then it would seem that the promotion would not be warranted. Why? A promotion given just because others in the area are a higher rank, IMO, isn't promotion worthy.

2) Is it possible this person got lost in the mix? Perhaps this person has been overlooked for a promotion. Its been 10yrs since his last promo. Perhaps, instead of coming right out and asking, "Can I get bumped to 3rd or 4th?" the better route would be to sit down, privately, and talk to the teacher, asking what if there is anything that he needs to learn, work on, etc. Again, as I said above, I'm really not a fan of asking. When/if you're ready, you'll get it. IMO, you can have 1,000 stripes on your belt. That doesnt necessarily mean that your skills match that.

The main differences here though, are the fact that this person is, or appears to be actively working with a teacher. This would be alot different if the person didn't have a teacher, but the person felt that he was ready for another rank, so they have someone in to give a seminar, someone who even though this person has knowledge in the same art, yet the student isn't a student of them, and hits them up for a promotion. That, IMHO, isn't right. Get with a teacher and train actively.

 

[jks9199]

Let's look at a few things here...

What is rank? It's not magic. It's recognition that you've met whatever standards have been defined.

In the association I belong to, for many years, promotions above 1st level black were the sole province of the chief instructor. In theory. In reality, sometimes it was whether you were on the list provided by the association secretary as eligible. Other times, it was whether he thought about you at promotion time or not. And that was controlled by various factors -- including whether your instructor brought it up with him. My personal teacher didn't; he left these decisions completely in the chief instructors hands.

However, today, the promotional process has changed. It's much more like applying for graduation in a college: when you've met the time, you fill out the application, test and pass or not. Could a special case be made to the association's board for advancement early? Probably. Bluntly, we've got several highly ranked members of our association who have no ground to complain if someone were promoted faster than the schedule; they were. I'm not at all suggesting they weren't worthy, and I admit to some personal bitterness about it. (I missed at least one "on schedule" promotion for no reason but bureaucratic omission, for example.)

If an underbelt were to approach me about testing for black, or being promoted to a certain rank... I might not be very sympathetic. But a lot would depend on how and why, too... And I think that's a different question than black belt promotion.

At some point, black belts have to accept the responsibility for their own training and advancement. If they don't care about ranks -- that's their call. If they feel that they are ready, and can make a case for an advancement, that's their call too. But, you know what? Their association/promotion board/whatever-it-is that decides also can look at that out-of-sequence request, and fail it at step 1: insufficient time in grade.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I think this depends on the circumstance. For instance during a recent chat with my Sensei he mentioned that he spent close to 11 years on Shodan (1st Dan) because in our organization the head instructor is the only person who can promote past that and he lives a couple of states away & didn't always get a chance to visit this particular school. He simply hadn't realized how long it had been so my Sensei was graded and promoted to Sandan (3rd Dan). There was no rank skipping test available and there certainly isn't one now but purely based on the time and the obvious skill level demonstrated, a double promotion was awarded.

Surely something like that couldn't be called ridiculous?

Well, it's no more ridiculous than studying for an Associate's Degree and being awarded a Bachelor's Degree because of the time it took.

Look, if what you say is true about the head instructor simply ignoring his responsibility to keep tabs on his instructors then the problem lies with him. But the answer isn't double promoting the 1st dan for the simple reason that he hasn't learned the material he needs to master as a 2nd dan in order to be eligible to test for 3rd dan (unless your system has no connection between rank and the art's syllabus, in which case he could be promoted to whatever rank the head instructor wanted because it doesn't mean anything technique-wise). The answer lies in the head instructor taking his responsibility more seriously especially if it'sa self-imposed responsibility as in he wants to act as a "quality-control" measure to make sure all black belts are "up to snuff." If that's his reasoning for having this requirement then he needs to apologize to the 1st dan in question, in private, and make a goal of doing better to meet his own standards. He does not need to jump ranks for the 1st dan simply because it's been a long time since he tested.

In our school it's actually encouraged as it shows that you are doing your research (as long as you actually are!) and trying to progress.

In my instructors' school this is shown by doing your best on the material you have already been taught and gaining further proficiency in it. Once that occurs the instructors decided whether or not you're ready to learn more.

Different attitudes, I guess, but I'm a 5th dan and there's no way I'd ever consider just out and out asking my instructor to teach me something. IMO, there's not a little merit in using a bit of circumlocution in order to ask questions. What harm does it do to me if I bring up a particular technique or combination or pattern and discussing its relative merits or weaknesses in order to see what my instructor says? If he thinks it's something I am ready to learn he can easily say, "Yes, remind me about that next class and I'll show it to you," or he could simply discuss the technique in question and not take it any further. This way I'm not embarrassed by having him say he doesn't think I'm ready for further instruction on the topc and, more importantly, he doesn't feel pressured to dole out information he thinks would be more advantageous to me at a later date. We both save face.

Of course that being said there are limitations. A white belt who has just started requesting to be taken through the high level kata with the same attitude as used with the black belts is not going to be entertained but purely because they haven't got the basic grasp they would require to understand the hidden lessons in the higher level techniques, not because the instructors see it as rude. It's different if the same white belt was to walk up to the instructors and critique how a particular technique is done, now THAT'S ridiculous.

I don't disagree but I would say that the asking of the question is rude for exactly the reason you give. There's an inference that the student either knows better than the instructor, or has some sort of "right" to be taught what he wants when he wants. Both attitudes subtley denigrate the instructor and his contribution to the student's development. Alternately, you could say that the request is simply made out of ignorance of how things are done in a particular style or school, in which case the student should be gently informed that the instructor teaches what he thinks is best when he thinks it will make the best impression on him. Pressing the issue would surely be viewed as being disrespectful.

I personally have approached my instructors numerous times asking to be shown something which I may not have been taught already and there are one of 2 possible responses: "Sure, let's go" or "At this stage it would do you no good to learn that, keep working on "x" technique/s and we'll see how you go a little while down the track".

Hey, if your instructor says you can ask him to teach you things then go ahead. He's obviously made it clear to people in his school that this is an approach he is comfortable with.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Kwan Jang]

First, I think that it's misguided to think that higher rank means much to people's decisions of who to train with. The vast majority don't care about or understand what titles you've won or what rank you hold. They care about what you will do for them or their children.
Second, to me rank only means something IF it is something you have to grow into.

I am preparing for my 7th dan testing and I am 18 months out. I train pretty hard and very regularly year round. I work my technical skills, I spar and grapple and do my cardio and weight training regardless if my test is 5 weeks away or 5 years. However, I will admit that like most of us, I will put a stronger emphasis on the areas I prefer and shuffle the stuff I don't further down the list. I am a world class grappling competitor that LOVES to drill and expand on new ways to tie people in knots. I love sparring, esp. the muay thai, but getting me to spend more than a limited amount of time on forms takes a bit. Getting me to work on weapons work is like pulling teeth. Therefore for me, testing is important to keep me well rounded in our curriculum and to shore up my weak points.

IMO, whatever the rules of your org. are for rank advancement should be followed. I do feel that it should be clearly defined rules and not just the whims of the head of the org. I also believe that rank should be awarded to those who earn it by growing into it and not just to keep up with the Jonses.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

No way, absolutely not! No way, no how! I think this leads to the slippery slope where people get advanced when they do not have the skill or abilities. Once you compromise one time it is easier to do so again and again! Unfortunately that instructor in the intial OP post probably is right in that there are a lot of high ranked people around him. Who cares, they probably all went the way of the belt factory and promoted way to fast and their skill sets are probably poor. Ninety percent of what I see out there now a days is poor! This goes across most martial systems. Unfortunately way to many people have been promoted to just teaching level that never should have been moved forward. (ie. they should be students not teachers) Thus dilluting over and over again many systems. Some times more is simply not better! I know some excellent 2nd degree black belts that are way beyond some higher level in skill set and knowledge! Take your time and be a quality martial practitioner and not a joke!

FYI, anyone teaching next time you pass someone whose skill set does not merit advancement understand that you are part of the problem! Instead I would advise you to not promote someone when they do not merit it! (simply do not let them test)

 

[Carol]

I don't think it would be appropriate to ask for rank.

However, I also do not think the subject of rank and testing should be completely taboo and off-limits.

If a student has earned a nidan under his instructor, then that person has probably spent a lot of time and perhaps even a lot of money. To me it seems a bit ridiculous to have that sort of commitment and not be able to honestly and respectfully discuss matters of rank.

Now, that being said...do I think its appropriate to ask for rank because the person is opening a school, or because others around him are mo' higher up? Absolutely not. But I also do not think it is inappropriate for a student to ask their instructor about his/her progress or to get additional feedback on the student's path. If student and teacher cannot have an honest and mature discussion about rank after that many years together, isn't something...wrong?

 

[chrispillertkd]

Can there be a balance between the two extremes? Can we acknowledge that rank is important and should be handled with conscientious respect, yet at the same time we also realize that standards/requirements are mutable instead of being rigid?

Well, that would depend a lot on your definition of "standards" and "requirements," I think.

That being said, I referred previously to the minimum time in rank requirements that the ITF has. Those are minimum time requirements. So the standard/requirement is flexible in the sense that it could take you 5 years to go from 5th dan to 6th dan or it could take you 10 years.

Many of us would modify the strict technical requirements for a belt if a student is physically incapable of performing them, like perhaps a disabled person should not be asked to do the flying kicks in TKD. Why is this different from shaving some length off time-in-grade for those ready to advance? Surely there is some room for customization and individualism for the exceptional in one way or another?

Several years ago I met a gentleman who was a 2nd dan (at the time) who had been born without arms. He had to change all of the ITF patterns so all the techniques were foot techniques. Of course you couldn't ask him to do a reverse punch, or a hooking block, or a knife-hand strike. But his requirements were at least as challenging as those you'd normally be expected to meet in Taekwon-Do, if not more. And his kicks were excellent.

Do you think this gentleman's requirements were akin to reducing the time requirements for rank testing? IMNSHO, I'd say it was rather the opposite.

People with disabilities might not be able to do everything that's "officially" required but they should always be required to put forth as much effort in mastering the skills they are able to do as everyone else is. How is not spending the required amount of time before testing like this?

I don't think it is a one case fits all situation. It would indeed be presumptuous for a a relative beginner to ask for specific instruction in a topic they are not prepared for. Yet when I make my quarterly visit to my own teacher, he grants me a wide latitude in picking my own lessons. I have earned the privilege. Similarly I give my top students a degree of the same independence to pick their own lessons and improvements.

As I posted above, there's a difference between your instructor asking what you'd like to work on and simply approaching him and asking to learn something new. I've had private lessons or been in class where my instructor has asked me what I wanted to practice, and I've told him what I thought I needed to work on (and there have been a few times where the answer was "We'll get to that, after we work on this other thing you need to do better."). But even under those circumstances I didn't ask to learn something new, but rather to work on something I've already been taught that needs further polishing.

Pax,

Chris

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think the reason there is so much grey area on a subject like this is because many other sports/physical activities allow for people to advance depending how good they are and not time. If you start sprinting practice and are just freakishly good you could go to the olympics the very next year jumping 'rank' over all the other sprinters who have slogged away at it for years and years. A tennis player, with incredible talent could jump into the world top 10 leap frogging players with 3 times as much experience. Martial arts is different though, two people can both start at the same time, one of them is extremely co ordinated, flexible, tough and just a natural. The other is just your average joe, not bad by any means but just average. In martial arts, after 10 years of training both these students will be the same rank (or close to it), because of the time constrictions placed on advancement. I think generally some people struggle with this way of doing things and feel that if they are superior to the guy standing next to them then they should have higher rank irrespective of time in grade. I dont neccessarilly agree with it, but Im sure many people have this mindset.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I do not believe in time limits also. That is ridiculous in my opinion. If an individuals skill merits promotion then so be it irregardless of their time put in. Just look at bjj! Your average individual takes around ten years to black belt. Yet quite a few people have made it in a far, far shorter time. This is due in part because they have a skill set that merits advancement and can be measured by performance against other individuals. So while it takes quite a while to advance generally in bjj exceptions do happen. Yet you find very few poor bjj black belts at this point!

However in the martial arts no one should be promoted unless they warrant it so that standards can be maintained. That is one of the biggest issues with martial arts in general now a days in that the standards have been lowered way, way to much!

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I do not believe in time limits also. That is ridiculous in my opinion. If an individuals skill merits promotion then so be it irregardless of their time put in. Just look at bjj! Your average individual takes around ten years to black belt. Yet quite a few people have made it in a far, far shorter time. This is due in part because they have a skill set that merits advancement and can be measured by performance against other individuals. So while it takes quite a while to advance generally in bjj exceptions do happen. Yet you find very few poor bjj black belts at this point!

However in the martial arts no one should be promoted unless they warrant it so that standards can be maintained. That is one of the biggest issues with martial arts in general now a days in that the standards have been lowered way, way to much!

I agree. The biggest problem I see in most systems in regard to 'time in grade' is in the coloured belts. By the time you get to black belt and are waiting literally years between gradings the student should be ready. For instance, in a lot of systems from 4th to 5th dan (for example) is 5 years. Anyone who cant get their grading requirements down after 5 years of consistent training really musn't be trying too hard and this is where the biggest differences in skills start to become apparant. Someone who is just a 'natural' is going to be so much better by 4th or 5th dan than someone with average physical skills and yet both wait 5 years to grade. I agree they both should wait but I can understand that some people think they should bend the rules a bit for the student who is a natural and is probably 5th dan standard after 3 or 4 years.

 

[dancingalone]

That being said, I referred previously to the minimum time in rank requirements that the ITF has. Those are minimum time requirements. So the standard/requirement is flexible in the sense that it could take you 5 years to go from 5th dan to 6th dan or it could take you 10 years.

OK. I don't think the distinction is important for this discussion.

Several years ago I met a gentleman who was a 2nd dan (at the time) who had been born without arms. He had to change all of the ITF patterns so all the techniques were foot techniques. Of course you couldn't ask him to do a reverse punch, or a hooking block, or a knife-hand strike. But his requirements were at least as challenging as those you'd normally be expected to meet in Taekwon-Do, if not more. And his kicks were excellent.

Do you think this gentleman's requirements were akin to reducing the time requirements for rank testing? IMNSHO, I'd say it was rather the opposite.

It's just semantics however admirable this person might be for surmounting his handicap. If the syllabus has a reverse punch in it and he can't do one, by definition some personal accommodation is being made for him.

People with disabilities might not be able to do everything that's "officially" required but they should always be required to put forth as much effort in mastering the skills they are able to do as everyone else is. How is not spending the required amount of time before testing like this?

The premise seems simple enough to me. A nidan has the appropriate level of knowledge and skill for a higher rank. The only thing he is missing is time-in-grade. Is missing this sufficient in of itself to say no to a promotion? Sounds like you would nix the promotion?

As I posted above, there's a difference between your instructor asking what you'd like to work on and simply approaching him and asking to learn something new. I've had private lessons or been in class where my instructor has asked me what I wanted to practice, and I've told him what I thought I needed to work on (and there have been a few times where the answer was "We'll get to that, after we work on this other thing you need to do better."). But even under those circumstances I didn't ask to learn something new, but rather to work on something I've already been taught that needs further polishing.

I understand the difference is important to you and that you believe asking to be taught something new is disrespectful. I do not. I am close enough to my teacher to be trusted as a custodian of the system and I can freely ask him any technical question that might come to mind and I can likewise have my choice of topics when I see him in person for lessons.

Following his example, I would not take it amiss if one of my own senior students asked to be taught something specific that I have not taught before. Why would I? If he is a senior student, then he has progressed to a reasonable level of skill and personal maturity and he has earned the privilege to help shape some of his own martial education.

Thank you for your thoughts!

 

[bluewaveschool]

I'm am in this situation as the student atm. I worked out last night with a 4th dan at his school, very nice guy, very like minded in our views on TKD. Right now I'm just working out, so we can feel out if we are a good fit for each other. But we have discuss a longer term goal of reaching 3rd dan. I was completely open about my long term goals this first time we talked. I didn't ask him for rank, but let him know that is what I am interested in training for.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

As I'm the person in question here, I may be able to offer some context.

While I understand Chris' position, the differences between our systems will dictate quite a difference in approach here, as evidenced by these replies. I'll try to go through them and sort out why this works the way it does for us, but not in Chris' TKD organisation.

No. (And I'm of the opinion that jumping dan ranks a la the Kukiwon's skip dan tests is ridiculous.)

I think this depends on the circumstance. For instance during a recent chat with my Sensei he mentioned that he spent close to 11 years on Shodan (1st Dan) because in our organization the head instructor is the only person who can promote past that and he lives a couple of states away & didn't always get a chance to visit this particular school. He simply hadn't realized how long it had been so my Sensei was graded and promoted to Sandan (3rd Dan). There was no rank skipping test available and there certainly isn't one now but purely based on the time and the obvious skill level demonstrated, a double promotion was awarded.

Surely something like that couldn't be called ridiculous?

Perhaps some background to begin with.

I started training in this art in 1993, gaining my Shodan in 1998 (a process that was over 6 months of being constantly observed, which is really how we grade people, rather than a single day - one chance type of situation, consistency is more important). Within a the next two years, there was a fair bit of upheaval with us considering simply abolishing Dan grades altogether (just after we split from Japan), leaving just Black Belt and Instructor as the Black ranks. This put a "hold" on any ranking while it was being figured out (in the end we kept Dan grades, but are limited to 5th Dan as the highest we award).

At this point, the only person who can grade black belts is our Chief Instructor (still is), and due to various reasons we didn't get to see him as often as we used to. Didn't really bother me, to be honest though. However, about 4 years ago my personal instructor left for personal and work-related reasons, and myself, along with two others, stepped up to take over the instruction. A few times a year, we would travel interstate to train under our Chief Instructor, and the focus was obviously on the training, with little else being discussed. In one of these trips (at the end of 2007), I did breach the question of rank. At that time, myself and the other two isntructors were all ranked at Shodan, and that was the highest rank in Melbourne).

The way I broached the question was not asking for rank, however. What was asked was what would he be looking for in terms of our next stage in development, and by extension rank. He asked us how long it had been, and we said a bit over 8 years, so he set us a list of things to do (including continuing and furthering research into RBSD, cross-training in BJJ/MMA/Kickboxing etc, and a fair bit more), with a year to do so. After the year was up, we were then promoted to Sandan. So it wasn't just a matter of "ask and ye shall recieve", and wasn't asking for a double grade by any means.

Well, it's no more ridiculous than studying for an Associate's Degree and being awarded a Bachelor's Degree because of the time it took.

Look, if what you say is true about the head instructor simply ignoring his responsibility to keep tabs on his instructors then the problem lies with him. But the answer isn't double promoting the 1st dan for the simple reason that he hasn't learned the material he needs to master as a 2nd dan in order to be eligible to test for 3rd dan (unless your system has no connection between rank and the art's syllabus, in which case he could be promoted to whatever rank the head instructor wanted because it doesn't mean anything technique-wise). The answer lies in the head instructor taking his responsibility more seriously especially if it'sa self-imposed responsibility as in he wants to act as a "quality-control" measure to make sure all black belts are "up to snuff." If that's his reasoning for having this requirement then he needs to apologize to the 1st dan in question, in private, and make a goal of doing better to meet his own standards. He does not need to jump ranks for the 1st dan simply because it's been a long time since he tested.

The big catch here is that there isn't any "material" for any of the grades, really. It's really a personal observation of the development of the individual. We don't have any "secret" techniques, there is nothing that you have to wait for a particular grade to learn, such as particular kata (rather different from the forms and poomse of TKD it must be said). In the end, the decision as to my rank was up to him, and yes there were a number of private conversations regarding what was appropriate. But the end decision was his.

Personally, your example of asking to learn a specific kata (for instance) - without further qualification - strikes me as being, well, rude.

In our school it's actually encouraged as it shows that you are doing your research (as long as you actually are!) and trying to progress.

In my instructors' school this is shown by doing your best on the material you have already been taught and gaining further proficiency in it. Once that occurs the instructors decided whether or not you're ready to learn more.

Different attitudes, I guess, but I'm a 5th dan and there's no way I'd ever consider just out and out asking my instructor to teach me something. IMO, there's not a little merit in using a bit of circumlocution in order to ask questions. What harm does it do to me if I bring up a particular technique or combination or pattern and discussing its relative merits or weaknesses in order to see what my instructor says? If he thinks it's something I am ready to learn he can easily say, "Yes, remind me about that next class and I'll show it to you," or he could simply discuss the technique in question and not take it any further. This way I'm not embarrassed by having him say he doesn't think I'm ready for further instruction on the topc and, more importantly, he doesn't feel pressured to dole out information he thinks would be more advantageous to me at a later date. We both save face.

Within TKD, that makes sense. The curriculum is defined, with certain forms at certain rank levels, and so on. With us, not so much.

Our system is so broad, with so many different unarmed systems, different weapons, different areas of knowledge seperate from that, and so on, that it's not uncommon for a student to ask "when will we learn "X"?" Typically, my answer may be to give a particular time that I have it already organised for (for example, one of my students has expressed interest in Kusari Fundo, weighted chain, which I am teaching during December, others are asking about Koto Ryu, one of our systems, which I am presenting for the first 6 months next year, and some have asked about such things as climbing methods, which I have no plans at present to teach, so I took them through some basic principles, and may do more of at some point soon). However what is taught is taught to everyone at the same time. The Dan grades get the same technical teachings as the beginners.... hopefully, of course, the more senior can take something more out of it, whereas the beginners are just getting used to the approach!

Of course that being said there are limitations. A white belt who has just started requesting to be taken through the high level kata with the same attitude as used with the black belts is not going to be entertained but purely because they haven't got the basic grasp they would require to understand the hidden lessons in the higher level techniques, not because the instructors see it as rude. It's different if the same white belt was to walk up to the instructors and critique how a particular technique is done, now THAT'S ridiculous.

I don't disagree but I would say that the asking of the question is rude for exactly the reason you give. There's an inference that the student either knows better than the instructor, or has some sort of "right" to be taught what he wants when he wants. Both attitudes subtley denigrate the instructor and his contribution to the student's development. Alternately, you could say that the request is simply made out of ignorance of how things are done in a particular style or school, in which case the student should be gently informed that the instructor teaches what he thinks is best when he thinks it will make the best impression on him. Pressing the issue would surely be viewed as being disrespectful.

(Just as an aside, depending on the student, I may actually take them through it, jsut to demonstrate how out of their depth that approach is.... if telling them doesn't seem to cut it!)

Really, Chris, I think it comes down to the breadth of the system we study. For example, I love spear, and over the last 17-18 years, I have trained it exactly twice in class. I have, however, trained it rather extensively privately, but the point is that if you just wait for what you are interested in, there's no guaratee when you may get to it. And, being Westerners, wanting immediate gratification, coming into an art such as Ninjutsu it's really not uncommon to have particular interests and desires in training. So asking about that aspect is something that I encourage, and if I deem that the student can get something out of it, I'll take them through some of it. If not, I'll explain that as well.

To give you an idea of what I mean in terms of breadth of knowledge, though, this is a breakdown of what we teach:

Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu (Unarmed system, 50 kata roughly)
Koto Ryu Koppojutsu (Unarmed system, 50 kata roughly)
Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu (Unarmed/Lightly armed system, roughly 30 kata, with another 17 kata for sword - Ninja Biken)
Kukishinden Ryu (Multi-faceted system, 60 kata unarmed, 60 kata Bojutsu, 15 kata Hanbo, 9 kata Jo, 16 kata Sword, 3 kata short sword, 5 kata Jutte, 30 kata spear, 15 kata Naginata, associated systems include another 18 Jo kata, another 30 Bo kata, another 25 Hanbo kata, and so on)
Takagi Yoshin Ryu (Unarmed system, 120+ kata depending on lineage [ours is about 120, although this is not a system we teach often])
Shinden Fudo Ryu (two seperate unarmed systems with about 30 and 60 kata each, respectively - again, not often taught with us, but on occasion)
Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki (Unarmed training manual, approx. 70 kata along with essential techniques [throws, strikes, postures, limb controls etc] numbering about 100)

Add to all of that the non-technical aspects (such as the Togakure Ryu stealth aspects, meteorology etc), the modern approach we teach as well, additional knowledge based on things such as my own personal research, including other systems and weaponry, and so on, and it's easy to see why a student may ask about something they are interested in. We obviously can't cover all of this in a single class, or even a single year...

I personally have approached my instructors numerous times asking to be shown something which I may not have been taught already and there are one of 2 possible responses: "Sure, let's go" or "At this stage it would do you no good to learn that, keep working on "x" technique/s and we'll see how you go a little while down the track".

Hey, if your instructor says you can ask him to teach you things then go ahead. He's obviously made it clear to people in his school that this is an approach he is comfortable with.

Pax,

Chris

That I have. I encourage questions, and also encourage personal research in anything that is of particular interest to a student. Typically, I recommend the student does their own research, and then checks things with me. Often corrections will need to be made, and it's better that they check with me before going too far in the wrong direction.

Hope that's made some sense.

 

[Indagator]

As far as the time thing goes, imho time is not neccesarily such a relevant factor as grasp of the physical, spiritual and philosophical aspects of where one should be at any given point in time. I believe that, at least surfactorily, this is what rank should reflect. As far as asking for ranks, I was most impressed by somebody I met who, inspired by Brin Morgan, requested to spend 2 years as a white belt (the request was granted, too).
If one simply requested a rank and was awarded it, would not that defeat the purpose of holding the rank in the first place.
Of course, the distinction already defined here of separating between requesting rank, and requesting guidance on what is required for one to earn the rank, is an important one.
In some ways, perhaps one could look at it as though belts and badges are merely external symbols, which contextually can have as much or as little meaning as is possible.
A transition through ranks is an internal journey - you're either there, mind body and spirit, or you are not there.
All of us have seen those guys training who you can pick right away as being very infused with the art. Their movements, insights, things that they might say.

To borrow another poster's analogy of Associate's Degree and Bachelor's Degree, let's have a look at it this way;

If we take a given inherent process or element of knowledge within, let's say, mathematics and we ask in turn one infant, one high school student, one first-year tertiary student and finally a Univeristy professor, we would find that (one would hope)
The infant would in most cases be relatively unaware of anything beyond the scope of learning the numbers, and how to count, as a preface to when he could assimilate the knowledge and begin utilising it in new ways.
The high school student would be able to describe the process or knowledge accurately, but at a relatively surfactoral level. Compared to the infant, the high school student is in a completely different realm of mathematics.
The tertiary student would elaborate on that into depths of insight further than that which the high school student would have observed, and usually will view the process or knowledge on a deeper level. This is, in turn, itself a graduated knowledge again, as without the prefactory knowledge inherently neccesary to begin to learn the lessons he would face, he could not understand what he was being faced with.
The university professor in mathematics has reached a point in which the fullness of the knowledge of the process has evolved from a way of thinking, into a way of being. Although (hopefully) ever still learning, he has incorporated the knowledge at such a level that it is as the final assembly of all of the parts of a machine. A new phase of being, operating, and approaching the same subject is in play.

To me what is important in the transition through such phases of being, is growth rather than time. Growth is often reflected chronologically, as it usually occurs over extended periods of time. However time does not always incur growth.

I guess I'll end this ramble now lol.