Siu Lim Tau Comparison

[Kung Fu Wang]

One note here is that Sil Lum Tao doesn't train proper punch mechanics, it's the first and one of the open hand forms. We studied healthy punching power in separate lessons.

~ Alan

I try to look at CMA in general. Many CMA systems (such as long fist, prey mantis, Zimen, ...) don't emphasize on "power generation" during the beginner stage. Many CMA systems (such as Baji, Chen Taiji, XYLH, ...) emphasize on "power generation" during beginner stage.

A prey mantis guy went to cross train the Baji system. He told his prey mantis brothers that his Baji teacher had helped him to open his eyes. His comment made his prey mantis teacher mad big time. Later on he combined "Baji power generation" and "prey mantis speed generation" and created his own system "Baiji prey mantis".

I always like to look at a CMA system and detect when the "power generation" will be introduced to the students.

 

[lansao]

Okay. We were talking about elbow ideas in SNT on this thread, and not elbow strikes.

Quick correction: "The start of the Bil Gee incorporates elbow striking." should read "elbow deflection and/or striking."

Separate thought, I think I've demonstrated a fair amount of patience with you LFJ. Throughout our conversation, you've seemed combative and defensive. I've shared openly and in fairly great detail even providing video demonstrations to support statements. I'm asking you now, as a fellow martial artist, to understand I'm not coming from a place of criticism of your lineage when replying to you. I do, however, feel like there is an undertone of criticism coming from you and unfortunately, it's not possible to prove an empirical truth with theory.

I disagree with your interpretation of the "little idea" being "all about" or solely focused on the elbows. I think it's limited and naive. I think the use of elbows as a defense mechanism bipasses a perfectly valid line of defense. I think use of the elbow increases risk of having that elbow captured. I think walking straight into a person who's twice your weight is a dumb thing to do. I think the wrists are useful devices and so are the finger tips.

~ Alan

 

[LFJ]

I do, however, feel like there is an undertone of criticism coming from you

All I've been saying is that the elbow focus as a tactical element in fighting is not universal in YM lineages.

That none of your explanations or videos have shown an elbow focus is not a criticism. As I said, I'm not arguing whether or not your stuff works for you. Just saying there is no elbow idea present.

I disagree with your interpretation of the "little idea" being "all about" or solely focused on the elbows. I think it's limited and naive. I think the use of elbows as a defense mechanism bipasses a perfectly valid line of defense. I think use of the elbow increases risk of having that elbow captured. I think walking straight into a person who's twice your weight is a dumb thing to do. I think the wrists are useful devices and so are the finger tips.

Not sure what you're talking about. Are you still on about elbow strikes?

I'm talking about lin-siu-daai-da which is a core VT principle. It doesn't entail elbow strikes or walking straight into people.

 

[Juany118]

My concern is the "power generation" should be the most important part of the beginner's training,

If you "Keeping" your weight behind the punch, your body should follow after your punch as:

- elbow chase hand,
- shoulder chase elbow,
- body chase shoulder,
- leg chase body.

The most important CMA principle that

- hand coordinate with foot,
- elbow coordinate with knee,
- shoulder coordinate with hip

is completely missing in the Ip Men's SLT training.

I am simply using a point of physics when I speak of the punch. If you watch a boxer for a "power" punch they, in essence, "throw" their weight behind a punch with not simply hip but also waist movement. WC tries to make this more direct by having the punch from the center and supported by body structure so you are not throwing you weight behind it, rather keeping the weight behind it.

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[Juany118]

I commented on an element that is clearly part of the TWC method. It has been shown in the Mazza video you posted. Not sure why you are wanting to distance yourself from it now.

Not really, you said "stepping away". TWC doesn't step away. If we are "reacting" we deflect and step into the opponent but to their blind side to open. We NEVER intend or think to step away from the opponent. Deflect, move in (while flanking) while attacking. Stepping away doesn't happen, you always move in. If you do not see on the video the clear fact that Sifu Mazza has to move in to "jam" well I don't only what to say. The fact he doesnt move in up the middle doesn't matter. If you are 4 feet from an opponent and end up 2 feet from an opponent, if you are to the flank or up the middle, you have moved in, not away. I really don't get your insistence regarding maintaining distance or moving away because the video speaks for itself, it doesn't happen period.

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[lansao]

All I've been saying is that the elbow focus as a tactical element in fighting is not universal in YM lineages.

That none of your explanations or videos have shown an elbow focus is not a criticism. As I said, I'm not arguing whether or not your stuff works for you. Just saying there is no elbow idea present.



Not sure what you're talking about. Are you still on about elbow strikes?

I'm talking about lin-siu-daai-da which is a core VT principle. It doesn't entail elbow strikes or walking straight into people.

Apologies for the misunderstanding and overreaction.

~ Alan

 

[LFJ]

Not really, you said "stepping away". TWC doesn't step away. If we are "reacting" we deflect and step into the opponent but to their blind side to open. We NEVER intend or think to step away from the opponent. Deflect, move in (while flanking) while attacking. Stepping away doesn't happen, you always move in. If you do not not see on the video the clear fact that Sifu Mazza has to move in to "jam" well I don't only what to say. The fact he doesnt move in up the model doesn't matter. If you are 4 feet from an opponent and end up 2 feet from an opponent if you are to the flank or up the middle you have moved in, not away. I really don't get your insurance regarding maintaining distance or moving away because the video speaks for itself, it doesn't happen.

This was the video you posted.

At 2:31, his left foot steps out, away from the opponent, and the right foot follows, stepping back, away from the opponent.

 

[lansao]

Apologies for the misunderstanding and overreaction.

~ Alan

Simultaneous defense and striking is a core aspect of our variant too.

 

[Juany118]

This was the video you posted.

At 5:31, his left foot steps out, away from the opponent, and the right foot follows, stepping back, away from the opponent.

Since the video is only 2:31 long and you are giving a 5 + time hack you have me saying "what the heck is he talking about?!?"

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[dudewingchun]

Chu sau lei focuses on the elbow not the wrist. I guess you could say like 80/20 elbow/wrist if that makes sense. Cutting punch is pretty much jum sao with a punch, lead from the elbow with the CSL structure behind it.

These situations you are talking about are unrealistic. That video shows a guy throwing a jab and a 1-2 staying in the same spot...

 

[LFJ]

Since the video is only 2:31 long and you are giving a 5 + time hack you have me saying "what the heck is he talking about?!?"

I meant 2:31. Don't know why I hit 5.

 

[LFJ]

This was the video you posted.

At 2:31, his left foot steps out, away from the opponent, and the right foot follows, stepping back, away from the opponent.

In addition to 2:31, it is also obvious at 1:56 that he is stepping backward toward the camera, away from the opponent.

The gaang-sau when he does this is also spinning the opponent back around, adding momentum to their left punch while he's striking to the body. He will be knocked out.

 

[Juany118]

In addition to 2:31, it is also obvious at 1:56 that he is stepping backward toward the camera, away from the opponent.

The gaang-sau when he does this is also spinning the opponent back around, adding momentum to their left punch while he's striking to the body. He will be knocked out.

So your point is that after 2 minutes + of moving in, the last 20 seconds where he is laughing because (as is everyone else) over an inside joke among friends (and any true school is a school of friends) is emblematic of a system? Focus on the last 10+ seconds and ignore the prior 150 seconds? Really?

 

[LFJ]

So your point is that after 2 minutes + of moving in, the last 20 seconds where he is laughing because (as is everyone else) over an inside joke among friends (and any true school is a school of friends) is emblematic of a system? Focus on the last 10+ seconds and ignore the prior 150 seconds? Really?

No. That is the part you told me to focus on.

(the important bit is 1:00-1:40, look at the feet position.

its a matter of where are you after your entry, that is shown largely in 2:00-2:40.

You repeatedly said there is no stepping away. He repeatedly steps away.

 

[dudewingchun]

He will get knocked out by the second punch if they actually use footwork and don't purposely cross themselves over. A lot of people might just put there head down take one his shots and throw an overhand with all the power they can in the heat of the moment in a street fight, just don't see anything in that video working in real life. Your opponent can adjust their position too you know, move there hips, step back, bait you into stepping forward into a strike or grapple if you get too close.

 

[Juany118]

The Wing Chun I learned from my Sifu John Wahnish comes from my Sigung Philip Holder who, after graduating with honors under WIlliam Cheung graduated from Moy Yat before branching out and starting the North American Wing Chun Association (I believe in the 80's). Since then they have adapted and encouraged its continual development with input from BJJ, Krav Maga, boxing, and other arts. Wherever there is a movement that follows Wing Chun principles, that movement is Wing Chun.

You can watch a UFC fight and say "that was good Wing Chun" when the fighter acts in a way that is in accordance with Wing Chun principles of economy of energy, economy of movement, not fighting force against force, protecting the center line, etc. Then you can rewind and ask how we might tweak that to make it optimal for practice by further applying Wing Chun principles.

~ Alan

Just a caution. I agree with your last paragraph but some here (really only two or three) would call you a heretic for saying such a thing as I have discovered.

The only reason I mentioned what I did is that there are two, yes just two, who will take "shots" based on lineage differences and so I wanted to make sure I (and those who study "simple" TWC took) our own shots vs Lineages that may combine TWC with another.

 

[LFJ]

@Juany118

There has been no shot taking. What is in the videos you show just doesn't match what you say about them.

It's not a shot take to make this observation.

Instead of realizing and acknowledging it, you have chosen to take offense where none has been given.

 

[guy b]

@Juany118

There has been no shot taking. What is in the videos you show just doesn't match what you say about them.

It's not a shot take to make this observation.

Instead of realizing and acknowledging it, you have chosen to take offense where none has been given.

I would agree. Don't see what there is to be offended about here. TWC works in a different way to WSL VT is all I am concluding from this discussion.

 

[guy b]

He does have a clip. Must have forgotten.

It's at 3:15 here from his paak-sau drill. What he calls the "excluding punch".

As with the video I posted on the Cutting Punch thread, there is no elbow idea here. It's wrist-led and cutting diagonally across the line with the forearm. Same as his "paak-sau touch & go" being wrist-led, as most lineages do jam-sau from the wrist.

Thanks, yes agree.

 

[guy b]

No. You don't understand what I am describing above?

Really, you need a video? It's WC 101.

The clip from LFJ shows why a clip was required.