Siu Lim Tau Comparison

[Juany118]

He will get knocked out by the second punch if they actually use footwork and don't purposely cross themselves over. A lot of people might just put there head down take one his shots and throw an overhand with all the power they can in the heat of the moment in a street fight, just don't see anything in that video working in real life. Your opponent can adjust their position irl, move there hips, step back, bait you into stepping forward into a strike or grapple if you get too close.

That is missing the point, if I understand you correctly (and this is coming from in a school, it's 19+ years dealing with "knuckleheads" in a crime ridden city as a LEO). You need to look at what that whole video shows (also audio) because he isn't just showing footwork, but "hand" work. He isn't just stepping off to an angle but also engaging the opponent.

All I can say is that when fighting with honest to goodness "bad guys" that works, not better than others but it works in a real fight. What is a chunother than a variation of a boxing cover? I could go on but it seems off when people who haven't thrown a punch in anger make judgements on any art or lineage in terms of effectiveness.

We all obviously love WC. We all study it. To say one is better or worse, that one works and a other doesn't is horse crap. Years ago I studied WSLVT for a bit. I have now studied TWC for a longer time. I will NEVER say WSLVT philosophy does or doesn't work because I never had to used it in anger. I have used TWC philosophy in anger, as did my Sifu in LE operations. It worked. That is what matters in MAs right?

Heck I even remember someone now trying to attack one lineage here saying earlier, in this thread, that they weren't interested in a "which is better" conversation, yet here we are.

So how about a new WC forum rule. No one says "that won't work irl fights" unless they can say it landed them on their butt?

 

[LFJ]

he isn't just showing footwork, but "hand" work. He isn't just stepping off to an angle but also engaging the arms.

Isn't that exactly what I was saying about TWC?

You angle off and keep distance requiring engaging the arms with the hand, hence no elbow lin-siu-daai-da idea being present. So, it's not very universal as you claimed, since your lineage doesn't even do it.

It worked. That is what matters in MAs right?

As I said at the beginning of the discussion, I wasn't arguing whether or not your stuff works for you. If you can get it to work, great. But that's beside the point.

Also, at least for VT, we prefer to increase %s. As WSL always said, if there is a simpler, more direct and efficient method, he wants to know it.

 

[LFJ]

So how about a new WC forum rule.

A better rule:

Acknowledge valid points and move on. If a point is not valid, address it honestly. Don't start playing victim when inconsistencies have been observed.

If you want your feelings protected, start your own forum and only allow people who always agree with you to join.

 

[Nobody Important]

The clip from LFJ shows why a clip was required.

Maybe I missing something that was stated earlier, but I don't see in the video what he described in the post that LFJ used for reference. It could have been applied, but wasn't. If I'm not mistaken, I believe he was describing something a bit different, though I'll let KPM clarify that.

In YCW WC we call the movement in question Outer Gate Punch when above the incoming arm & Inner Gate Punch when below it. The punch "rides" the opponents arm to it's target. It's a wedge that moves the incoming arm off it's line of attack as we punch. Lin Siu Dai Da in one punch. Elbow position plays a large part in directing the forward pressure of the forearm.

We have a saying: Beginning students block, intermediate students attack after blocking & advanced students attack. Our gate punching is offense & defense in one punch. It is no different than the regular punch, just the idea of how it can be used is different. There is no up or down motion prior to it's use, pressure is forward & to center, using footwork to angle will remove you from line of their attack but isn't necessary for it's application.

I believe KPM was referring to the same thing, I could be wrong. If so I apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

[LFJ]

@Nobody Important

So, you're not talking about the "excluding punch" then? Again, that's why a clip was necessary. You guys could all be talking about something different.

I don't do any "riding" on the opponent's arm, and it's not just a one-off technique, but a concept that is always present in any sort of continuous straight-line attack regardless of position or what is or isn't on the line.

 

[dudewingchun]

That is missing the point, if I understand you correctly (and this is coming from in a school, it's 19+ years dealing with "knuckleheads" in a crime ridden city as a LEO). You need to look at what that whole video shows (also audio) because he isn't just showing footwork, but "hand" work. He isn't just stepping off to an angle but also engaging the opponent.

All I can say is that when fighting with honest to goodness "bad guys" that works, not better than others but it works in a real fight. What is a chunother than a variation of a boxing cover? I could go on but it seems off when people who haven't thrown a punch in anger make judgements on any art or lineage in terms of effectiveness.

We all obviously love WC. We all study it. To say one is better or worse, that one works and a other doesn't is horse crap. Years ago I studied WSLVT for a bit. I have now studied TWC for a longer time. I will NEVER say WSLVT philosophy does or doesn't work because I never had to used it in anger. I have used TWC philosophy in anger, as did my Sifu in LE operations. It worked. That is what matters in MAs right?

Heck I even remember someone now trying to attack one lineage here saying earlier, in this thread, that they weren't interested in a "which is better" conversation, yet here we are.

So how about a new WC forum rule. No one says "that won't work irl fights" unless they can say it landed them on their butt?

Why are you assuming i have never thrown a punch in anger, if thats what you meant? I said that because I have been in fights and have experience all my training going out the window and going full force grab there collar with one arm and throw wild hooks with the other with my head down. Its got a broken rythym, it is too fast to " feel pressure on my bong sao then switch to biu"

 

[guy b]

You angle off and keep distance requiring engaging the arms with the hand, hence no elbow lin-siu-daai-da idea being present. So, it's not very universal as you claimed, since your lineage doesn't even do it.

The funny thing about this forum is how difficult it is to get people to take ownership of what they actually said, even on the same thread a few pages before. So TWC doesn't use lsdd elbow ideas like WSL VT. That's ok isn't it? If you do TWC and believe in it, why would you even care if it isn't the same as WSL VT?

It's so pointless to deflect, change direction or topic, take offence rather than simply acknowledging

 

[guy b]

Maybe I missing something that was stated earlier, but I don't see in the video what he described in the post that LFJ used for reference. It could have been applied, but wasn't. If I'm not mistaken, I believe he was describing something a bit different, though I'll let KPM clarify that.

In YCW WC we call the movement in question Outer Gate Punch when above the incoming arm & Inner Gate Punch when below it. The punch "rides" the opponents arm to it's target. It's a wedge that moves the incoming arm off it's line of attack as we punch. Lin Siu Dai Da in one punch. Elbow position plays a large part in directing the forward pressure of the forearm.

We have a saying: Beginning students block, intermediate students attack after blocking & advanced students attack. Our gate punching is offense & defense in one punch. It is no different than the regular punch, just the idea of how it can be used is different. There is no up or down motion prior to it's use, pressure is forward & to center, using footwork to angle will remove you from line of their attack but isn't necessary for it's application.

I believe KPM was referring to the same thing, I could be wrong. If so I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Hang on, you've gone from this:

Really, you need a video? It's WC 101

To this:

Maybe I missing something that was stated earlier, but I don't see in the video what he described in the post that LFJ used for reference. It could have been applied, but wasn't. If I'm not mistaken, I believe he was describing something a bit different, though I'll let KPM clarify that.

I believe KPM was referring to the same thing, I could be wrong. If so I apologize for the misunderstanding

If it is wing chun 101, and surprising that I would need a video, why so coy all of a sudden?

Apologies if you are being sincere, but it appears to be more of the same deflection, lack of ownership and so on. What's to hide? I don't understand.

 

[Nobody Important]

@Nobody Important

So, you're not talking about the "excluding punch" then? Again, that's why a clip was necessary. You guys could all be talking about something different.

I don't do any "riding" on the opponent's arm, and it's not just a one-off technique, but a concept that is always present in any sort of continuous straight-line attack regardless of position or what is or isn't on the line.

No I don't believe I am, but I'll let others clarify as I don't want to speak for them.

The term "ride" was an analogy, I simply meant that the punch follows up the opponents arm as the natural wedge created pushes him arm inward. If the point of intercept/connection is made at his wrist, as the wedge continues forward, your punch will follow his arm to his head.

I agree it is a principle present in every straight line attack. From my understanding it is use of the triangle theory. You attack the side of their triangle (as this is the weakest point) to destroy it's base.A constant wedge created with forward pressure, like how a log splitter works.

 

[LFJ]

@Nobody Important

Okay. I'm not into wedging and pushing up arms either.

What you describe sounds pretty much like the excluding and including punches. I've explained why I don't like them in the Cutting Punch thread, which isn't gaining much traction among cutting punchers.

 

[Nobody Important]

Hang on, you've gone from this:



To this:



If it is wing chun 101, and surprising that I would need a video, why so coy all of a sudden?

Apologies if you are being sincere, but it appears to be more of the same deflection, lack of ownership and so on. What's to hide? I don't understand.

How so?

Not being coy at all. When I spoke of Outer & Inner Gate punching, others agreed it was the same thing. It's simply using the straight punch as a block & strike in one united motion. Not block then strike, just a punch that intercepts an incoming attack on the way to your target.

It's basic WC stuff. I don't see how anyone, who learned the straight punch, never learned how to apply it in this manner. It's Lin Siu Dai Da in a singular punch.

 

[Juany118]

Why are you assuming i have never thrown a punch in anger, if thats what you meant? I said that because I have been in fights and have experience all my training going out the window and going full force grab there collar with one arm and throw wild hooks with the other with my head down. Its got a broken rythym, it is too fast to " feel pressure on my bong sao then switch to biu"

What does the last part have to do with what I said, or the video illustrated? Just saying. Nothing that I said here or in the video is about any of this switch from this to that nonsense when you enter a real fight.

That really confused the crap out of me because the video I linked had jack all to do with what you are talking about going from feeling pressure to switch from this to that.



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[Nobody Important]

@Nobody Important

Okay. I'm not into wedging and pushing up arms either.

What you describe sounds pretty much like the excluding and including punches. I've explained why I don't like them in the Cutting Punch thread, which isn't gaining much traction among cutting punchers.

I never said anything about pushing the arm. You're making it out to be an overly complicated action. It's just the straight punch, nothing special added. It is simply using the punch in the Lin Siu Dai Da manner. One motion that blocks and strikes in a singular punch. I can't explain it any simpler than that.

 

[LFJ]

When I spoke of Outer & Inner Gate punching, others agreed it was the same thing. It's simply using the straight punch as a block & strike in one united motion. Not block then strike, just a punch that intercepts an incoming attack on the way to your target.

It's basic WC stuff. I don't see how anyone, who learned the straight punch, never learned how to apply it in this manner. It's Lin Siu Dai Da in a singular punch.

When these kinds of punches were brought up here it was in response to elbow ideas not being universal in YM lineages.

When I've looked at examples of such punches, from YM and non-YM lineages, I've still seen no elbow idea present. They are wrist-led and cutting from an outside angle, or lifting from the inside.

 

[LFJ]

I never said anything about pushing the arm.

the punch follows up the opponents arm as the natural wedge created pushes him arm inward.

I'm having a hard time seeing how pushing his arm is not pushing his arm.

 

[Nobody Important]

I never said anything about pushing the arm. You're making it out to be an overly complicated action. It's just the straight punch, nothing special added. It is simply using the punch in the Lin Siu Dai Da manner. One motion that blocks and strikes in a singular punch. I can't explain it any simpler than that.

When these kinds of punches were brought up here it was in response to elbow ideas not being universal in YM lineages.

When I've looked at examples of such punches, from YM and non-YM lineages, I've still seen no elbow idea present. They are wrist-led and cutting from an outside angle, or lifting from the inside.

I'm not familiar with these cutting punches, inclusion/exclusion punches. In YCW WC we only have one straight punch. We only label them inner/outer gate based on contact made with the upper or underside of opponents forearm when we punch. It is not a deliberate thing, we do not seek forearm contact.

If the straight punch is thrown properly it can naturally clear the path to it's target. Timing is key to success. Personally I'm am not a big fan of this method as a strategy, it should occur naturally. Focusing on trying to make it happen intentionally will only get you hit.

Having proper elbow position allows the wedge to naturally develop as you strike to your center.

In the videos I've seen of PB, he uses outer & inner gate punching to a great degree, and does it very we'll. I've no doubt this is in large due to his inability to grab with the missing hand, he has no choice but to focus on the elbow.

No offense is meant by this, but those with two working wrists will undoubtedly draw focus at times to them. I will not speak for other branches as to whether or not their SNT is based upon movement of the elbow & if it is right it wrong. Personally I think the elbow is only part of the picture.

 

[LFJ]

In the videos I've seen of PB, he uses outer & inner gate punching to a great degree, and does it very we'll. I've no doubt this is in large due to his inability to grab with the missing hand, he has no choice but to focus on the elbow.

Has nothing to do with inability to grab and he didn't invent VT.

Why do you think he would teach students with two hands a handicapped version of VT?

 

[LFJ]

I'm not familiar with these cutting punches, inclusion/exclusion punches.

Join the Cutting Punch thread and see if anything looks familiar.

 

[Nobody Important]

I'm having a hard time seeing how pushing his arm is not pushing his arm.

Dude why do you feel the need to be such a literal a55 all the time?

How else would you like me to explain how forward pressure on the outside of someone's forearm moves their arm? If I'm punching him in his face, and his arm is in my line of attack it will be pushed inwards. This by no means says that I am focusing on pushing his arm, my focus is on punching him in the face. His arm getting pushed inward is due to the kinesiology of how the arm moves.

 

[dudewingchun]

What does the last part have to do with what I said, or the video illustrated? Just saying. Nothing that I said here or in the video is about any of this switch from this to that nonsense when you enter a real fight.

That really confused the crap out of me because the video I linked had jack all to do with what you are talking about going from feeling pressure to switch from this to that.



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Dw prob misunderstood what you said.