Siu Lim Tau Comparison

Quick video for the team showing the capping punch as I learned it. Bonus reverse capping punch too. Treat the right side of the fireplace as my opponent's line of force/central line.


P.S. The very end is me thinking I woke up the baby. Hence the expression of pure primal fear looking up.

~ Alan
 
All punching power should come from the body and not just come from the shoulder. This is why when a boxer looks at a WC clip, he won't believe that "shoulder only punch" can generate enough knock down power.

In this clip, you can see

- body movement,
- waist rotation, and
- legs spring.


In this clip, you don't see much body movement at all. I do think Ip Men's WC system training method has some issues. It makes beginners to forget about the body and only think about arm.

The issue is after you have developed this bad habit (only think about arm movement and not think about body movement), it's very difficult to remove it later on.

To keep it simple in the beginning training stage may be a good idea. But the important concept (such as body push/pull arm) should be addressed during SLT training stage.

The day that you can punch without using your arm, you will understand "power generation" better. Should you start this during SLT training? I think you should.

 
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All punching power should come from the body and not just come from the shoulder. This is why when a boxer looks at a WC clip, he won't believe that "shoulder only punch" can generate enough knock down power.

In this clip, you can see body movement and waist rotation.


In this clip, you don't see much body movement at all. I do think Ip Men's WC system training method has some issues. It makes beginners to forget about the body and only think about arm.

The issue is after you have developed this bad habit (only think about arm movement and not think about body movement), it's very difficult to remove it later on.

To keep it simple in the beginning training stage may be a good idea. But the important concept (such as body push/pull arm) should be addressed during SLT training stage.

Adding hip rotation, ball/heal weight distribution, a supported extension and good timing as important to generating knockout power. It's kind of akward at first like a golf swing.

~ Alan
 
Do you have a clip to show?

He does have a clip. Must have forgotten.

It's at 3:15 here from his paak-sau drill. What he calls the "excluding punch".

As with the video I posted on the Cutting Punch thread, there is no elbow idea here. It's wrist-led and cutting diagonally across the line with the forearm. Same as his "paak-sau touch & go" being wrist-led, as most lineages do jam-sau from the wrist.

 
Quick video for the team showing the capping punch as I learned it. Bonus reverse capping punch too. Treat the right side of the fireplace as my opponent's line of force/central line.


P.S. The very end is me thinking I woke up the baby. Hence the expression of pure primal fear looking up.

~ Alan
He does have a clip. Must have forgotten.

It's at 3:15 here from his paak-sau drill. What he calls the "excluding punch".

As with the video I posted on the Cutting Punch thread, there is no elbow idea here. It's wrist-led and cutting diagonally across the line with the forearm. Same as his "paak-sau touch & go" being wrist-led, as most lineages do jam-sau from the wrist.

Quick point of differentiation between what we call the "capping punch" and what's shown at 3:15 here as the "excluding punch." The capping punch just drives right through and the forearm of the punch itself serves as the deflective surface. There's no intermediary pak sao before the punch, the punch is the deflection and the strike.

~ Alan
 
All punching power should come from the body and not just come from the shoulder. This is why when a boxer looks at a WC clip, he won't believe that "shoulder only punch" can generate enough knock down power.

In this clip, you can see

- body movement,
- waist rotation, and
- legs spring.


In this clip, you don't see much body movement at all. I do think Ip Men's WC system training method has some issues. It makes beginners to forget about the body and only think about arm.

The issue is after you have developed this bad habit (only think about arm movement and not think about body movement), it's very difficult to remove it later on.

To keep it simple in the beginning training stage may be a good idea. But the important concept (such as body push/pull arm) should be addressed during SLT training stage.

The day that you can punch without using your arm, you will understand "power generation" better. Should you start this during SLT training? I think you should.


Just a two things.

1. SLT is not showing how to "throw a punch in anger." It is about teaching the basic Alphabet upon which everything in built upon. You expand upon that in the drills etc.

2. Physics. There is some hip action in a punch in WC just not as much. Why? Force equals mass*velocity. There are two ways via punching to achieve this. 1. "Throwing" your weight behind a punch and 2. "Keeping" your weight behind the punch. To illustrate...


So it is there. Simply because someone doesn't like a curriculum means little to the end result.



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Quick video for the team showing the capping punch as I learned it. Bonus reverse capping punch too. Treat the right side of the fireplace as my opponent's line of force/central line.

You are stepping away from the incoming line of force then, as I've been saying TWC does.

This keeps space between you and the opponent and moves your body in the opposite direction of your own line of force, meaning use of wrist and not elbow.

Quick point of differentiation between what we call the "capping punch" and what's shown at 3:15 here as the "excluding punch." The capping punch just drives right through and the forearm of the punch itself serves as the deflective surface. There's no intermediary pak sao before the punch, the punch is the deflection and the strike.

Same as the excluding punch. It's not the "paak-sau touch & go" bit, I think. He only shows a few of the excluding punches.
 
Once you "get there" your goal is to essentially use your attacks to maintain the flank position. You can see that a few times here in a real fight, not "drill"/demo. The one with the pony tail is Sifu Jerry Devone.

I didn't see any flanking in that fight. He was pretty much playing straight line right in front of the guy the whole time. If he was trying to flank, it didn't work. He won because the other guy didn't know what he was doing.
 
You are stepping away from the incoming line of force then, as I've been saying TWC does.

This keeps space between you and the opponent and moves your body in the opposite direction of your own line of force, meaning use of wrist and not elbow.
We step slightly off the line of force then intercept/punch the opponent's incoming head driving through it with our hip rotation preferably targeting their temple while gearing up to strike with our rear hand to the bridge of their nose or directly into their eye socket constantly coming in and jamming their elbow into their center setting their missing tripod leaving them feeling helpless and violated while stepping through their knee and sending the back of their heads hurling to the floor only to stomp on their faces before we walk away... or something like that ;)

Are we still talking about the Sil Lum Tao here? Feels like we're covering a lot of ground!

~ Alan
 
2. "Keeping" your weight behind the punch.
My concern is the "power generation" should be the most important part of the beginner's training,

If you "Keeping" your weight behind the punch, your body should follow after your punch as:

- elbow chase hand,
- shoulder chase elbow,
- body chase shoulder,
- leg chase body.

The most important CMA principle that

- hand coordinate with foot,
- elbow coordinate with knee,
- shoulder coordinate with hip

is completely missing in the Ip Men's SLT training.
 
My concern is the "power generation" should be the most important part of the beginner's training,

If you "Keeping" your weight behind the punch, your body should follow after your punch as:

- elbow chase hand,
- shoulder chase elbow,
- body chase shoulder,
- leg chase body.

The most important CMA principle that

- hand coordinate with foot,
- elbow coordinate with knee,
- shoulder coordinate with hip

is completely missing in the SLT training.
One note here is that Sil Lum Tao doesn't train proper punch mechanics, it's the first and one of the open hand forms. We studied healthy punching power in separate lessons.

~ Alan
 

Saw it. :D

We step slightly off the line of force then intercept/punch the opponent's incoming head driving through it with our hip rotation preferably targeting their temple while gearing up to strike with our rear hand to the bridge of their nose or directly into their eye socket constantly coming in and jamming their elbow into their center setting their missing tripod leaving them feeling helpless and violated while stepping through their knee and sending the back of their heads hurling to the floor only to stomp on their faces before we walk away... or something like that ;)

Are we still talking about the Sil Lum Tao here? Feels like we're covering a lot of ground!

~ Alan

Whoa... okay... I think you just described a murder.

Yes, we're still talking about SNT, because it's all about the elbow, though this seems to be missing from most lineages.
 
One note here is that Sil Lum Tao doesn't train proper punch mechanics, it's the first and one of the open hand forms. We studied healthy punching power in separate lessons.

~ Alan
To clarify however your WC is a combination of at least 2 Lineages correct? Only want to clarify because people here can paint with a broad brush. Ergo if your WC shares elements with TWC or WSL or whatever, unless you clarify people will be myopic and focus on one source. It sucks but welcome to our forums.

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Saw it. :D



Whoa... okay... I think you just described a murder.

Yes, we're still talking about SNT, because it's all about the elbow, though this seems to be missing from most lineages.
Ah, yeah. It was a bit of an exaggeration lol. We talk about the elbow a lot. It depends on our range and it's introduced from an open hand standpoint in the Bil Gee. We practice defending punches with elbows, defending elbows with elbows, and striking at a diagonal. It's just seems to be treated as a recovery tactic more than anything else. One thing my Sifu says is "if you're in range to give an elbow, you're in range to eat an elbow" which I think emphasizes a need to recover from it. Different strokes I guess.

~ Alan
 
To clarify however your WC is a combination of at least 2 Lineages correct? Only want to clarify because people here can paint with a broad brush. Ergo if your WC shares elements with TWC or WSL or whatever, unless you clarify people will be myopic and focus on one source. It sucks but welcome to our forums.

I commented on an element that is clearly part of the TWC method. It has been shown in the Mazza video you posted. Not sure why you are wanting to distance yourself from it now.
 
Ah, yeah. It was a bit of an exaggeration lol. We talk about the elbow a lot. It depends on our range and it's introduced from an open hand standpoint in the Bil Gee. We practice defending punches with elbows, defending elbows with elbows, and striking at a diagonal. It's just seems to be treated as a recovery tactic more than anything else. One thing my Sifu says is "if you're in range to give an elbow, you're in range to eat an elbow" which I think emphasizes a need to recover from it. Different strokes I guess.

~ Alan

You're talking about elbow strikes? You have elbow strikes in SNT?
 
To clarify however your WC is a combination of at least 2 Lineages correct? Only want to clarify because people here can paint with a broad brush. Ergo if your WC shares elements with TWC or WSL or whatever, unless you clarify people will be myopic and focus on one source. It sucks but welcome to our forums.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
The Wing Chun I learned from my Sifu John Wahnish comes from my Sigung Philip Holder who, after graduating with honors under WIlliam Cheung graduated from Moy Yat before branching out and starting the North American Wing Chun Association (I believe in the 80's). Since then they have adapted and encouraged its continual development with input from BJJ, Krav Maga, boxing, and other arts. Wherever there is a movement that follows Wing Chun principles, that movement is Wing Chun.

You can watch a UFC fight and say "that was good Wing Chun" when the fighter acts in a way that is in accordance with Wing Chun principles of economy of energy, economy of movement, not fighting force against force, protecting the center line, etc. Then you can rewind and ask how we might tweak that to make it optimal for practice by further applying Wing Chun principles.

~ Alan
 
You're talking about elbow strikes? You have elbow strikes in SNT?
We have them in the form we study. The start of the Bil Gee incorporates elbow striking. They're diagonal and the elbow ends at the central line to avoid giving the opponent our... elbow. Our 8th set of the dummy also includes elbow deflection with a bridge to lan sao. There's a particular hook punch defense where while fading under the hook we consider sending an elbow to the hip of the opponent (because it's just right there).

It's not included in our Sil Lum Tao but it is in other open hand forms, the dummy, and in many of our drills. No limits.

~ Alan
 
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