Siu Lim Tau Comparison

[Nobody Important]

Return = go home after finishing?

Lol, I suppose you could, but it's a reference to repeating the process or returning to a point in the process of the strategy.

What you listed is only part of our process, there are layers involved, but for sake of simplicity what you wrote is accurate for Yuen family Wing Chun as well.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

[LFJ]

You do realize that NB was just parroting you, right? And yet he still posted far more depth of understanding for his lineage's SNT form that you have for WSLVT. So has Geezer, using only a very brief post.....not a "book"!!! It seems that there are some things you are willing to share and explain.....like a drill that is part of just about every single WSLVT demo video ever posted on youtube....and some things you are not.

I seem to remember elaboration on the VT strategy being shared, and then hearing you and Juany arrogantly tell us that we are wrong about our own system of which neither of you have any experience.

I could agree with Geezer that the idea is LLHS, LSJC, but just repeating the maxim says nothing of depth. I know we do not share the same definition or application of it.

So maybe you two shouldn't be pressing everyone else to share information that you yourself are unwilling to share!A discussion forum is supposed to be an exchange. Not a soapbox for someone to point out how great their lineage is and how "broken" everyone else's lineage is! We don't need you here to "educate the masses" on the wonders of WSLVT, as Guy seems to think.

You have not posted anything of substance probably this whole year. All you have been doing for months is stalking me and guy b from topic to topic and giving lectures. This is very strange behavior for a middle-aged man.

If you aren't going to engage, why don't you just sit out like Joy? I'm not going to listen to you. I don't care about your feelings. Sorry, not sorry.

 

[wckf92]

Return = go home after finishing?

 

[KPM]

I seem to remember elaboration on the VT strategy being shared, and then hearing you and Juany arrogantly tell us that we are wrong about our own system of which neither of you have any experience.

----I don't remember ever "arrogantly telling you you were wrong about your strategy." Please post a link to that comment.


I could agree with Geezer that the idea is LLHS, LSJC, but just repeating the maxim says nothing of depth. I know we do not share the same definition or application of it.

---He has still provided more information than you have!



You have not posted anything of substance probably this whole year. All you have been doing for months is stalking me and guy b from topic to topic and giving lectures. This is very strange behavior for a middle-aged man.

---I've posted plenty. Just because you aren't interested in anything other than WSLVT and weren't paying attention.....that is your problem!


If you aren't going to engage, why don't you just sit out like Joy? I'm not going to listen to you. I don't care about your feelings. Sorry, not sorry.

----If you can make your mission to preach the gospel of WSLVT to all of us lesser mortals and point out how "broken" everyone else's Wing Chun is, I can make it my mission to point out how uneven your sharing is and how arrogant and condescending your posting style is. If you don't like me calling you on your BS, then you can go elsewhere. Clean up your act and I won't have anything to say!

 

[Nobody Important]

Are the various branches of Wing Chun so drastically different from one another as to be considered unrelated systems, or is it simply varying degrees understanding? I have a tendency to believe that semantics, terminology, preferred usage and ethnocentrism play a big part in the divisiveness, rhetoric and miscommunication. But I'm Nobody Important, so what the hell do I know.

 

[LFJ]

----I don't remember ever "arrogantly telling you you were wrong about your strategy." Please post a link to that comment.

Several pages on the thread "Improbability of the Refinement Theory".

There was a quote from WSL about VT strategy which you decided to continually misinterpret instead of accepting the explanation of it from those who know the system.

You actually argued against our explanations, assuming you know better what WSL meant.

This is implicitly saying our understanding of our own system's strategy is wrong, and it is arrogant, given your complete lack of experience with it.

---I've posted plenty.

How many months/years ago was your last post sharing detailed information on what you do?

Have you ever posted anything about your system comparable to the depth of what I've been writing in the "good teaching clip" thread?

If you don't like me calling you on your BS, then you can go elsewhere.

You don't own the forum, and I don't care what you post. You are just needlessly cluttering every topic.

If you don't like my BS, stop reading it. Please put me on ignore. Thanks.

 

[LFJ]

Are the various branches of Wing Chun so drastically different from one another as to be considered unrelated systems, or is it simply varying degrees understanding?

YM and Mainland lineages may share common ancestors from way back when, but they have greatly diverged and produced different types of fighters now.

Various YM lineages differ for varying degrees of understanding. We know most never completed the system, because only 4 ever even learned the knife form from YM.

 

[guy b]

There is a lot of information. I don't wish to write a book to explain

So there isn't a little idea?

The SNT/SLT is just a form, it is an abstract collection of shapes that are yet to be defined. I don't want to write a book on it, nor do I offer online instruction.

I don't offer online instruction either, but that seems to be what you and others are asking for?

I have clearly explained our concept of SLT, so I'm not sure want you are looking for specifically. Are you looking at ideas like centerline, structure, gates, motherline, force generation, jin patterns etc.

Nope, I'm looking for the basic thing that makes VT what it is.

The art isn't any different than yours, per say, other than how theory, methodology and strategy is approached.

Aside from a liberal interpretation of these things I would surmise that Yip Man & Yuen Chai Wan Wing Chun have way more in common than not.

If the description above is your explantion of the little idea, then the YCW wing chun system appears to be in no way related to YM VT. It sounds much more in line with other Southern Chinese systems.

All movement/shapes are in themselves useless until an "Idea" is put to it and tested.

What's the idea?

Think of it as a clock face, in example 12 is Tan Sau as the shape moves it adapts, by the time it reaches 3 it may be Pak Sau and by the time it transitions to 6 it is Gum Sau. In a cross pattern, if Jung Bong Sau is top as it transitions down it becomes Lan Sau and when it goes right it is Dai Bong Sau and going left it becomes Pi Jou. Hard to explain without demonstrating in person. The ability of a simple shape to adapt is an important concept in Yuen family Wing Chun. Threading the Shuttle/Needle or Weaving is a central theme that speaks to fluid transition and adaptation. There is much more than just this, but without the ability to transform shape Yuen family Wing Chun is useless.

Sorry, none of this means anything to me. You will need to be more straight forward

Our basic strategy (abbreviated) is Position, Bridge, Control, Hit and Return. There is a great deal of depth to this that I don't want to spend hours typing up

Sounds a lot more similar to something like SPM than to YM VT. VT is different

Now could you please elaborate (with some specifics) a bit on what you understand to be the "Little Idea" / General Strategy of WSLPBVT as presented in SNT?

The general strategy of VM VT is described here

What is being trained in SNT is the little idea. Nobody has provided equivalent info

 

[Nobody Important]

YM and Mainland lineages may share common ancestors from way back when, but they have greatly diverged and produced different types of fighters now.

Various YM lineages differ for varying degrees of understanding. We know most never completed the system, because only 4 ever even learned the knife form from YM.

I don't disagree with that, but would surmise that this diverengence amongst fighting approach is based largely on preference (which has led to variation) and not to the actual art itself. Evolving & devolving are legitimate factors. I would guess that if the core is still present, pertinent elements could be brought back.

As for your second response, many mainland branches are infected with the same illness. It's unfortunate, as there are some very skilled & knowledgeable individuals who practice these branches of Wing Chun that I would consinder on the fringes of orthodoxy. Others, well, it is what it is. I can't dismiss a branch as not being Wing Chun simply because of poor representatives, especially when I know good ones exist, no matter how sparse.

 

[guy b]

You do realize that NB was just parroting you, right? And yet he still posted far more depth of understanding for his lineage's SNT form that you have for WSLVT.

You could only think this from the point of view of not understanding YM VT. If what Nobody Important posted is a good representation of his system, then it doesn't have a little idea per se, isn't related to YM VT, and I don't see that there is anything to discuss really.

So has Geezer, using only a very brief post

Geezer has been very generous as he usually is. I don't agree with his understanding of the form. LFJ has posted very useful info about the WSL VT system on the teaching clip thread if you are interested.

We don't need you here to "educate the masses" on the wonders of WSLVT, as Guy seems to think.

It isn't for you KPM. If you don't want it then simply stop replying to threads. Your behavour is stalkerish

 

[LFJ]

I don't disagree with that, but would surmise that this diverengence amongst fighting approach is based largely on preference (which has led to variation) and not to the actual art itself.

But the systems themselves and what they are teaching have apparently changed quite a bit. The YMVT strategy is specific and developed at each step of the system with the end goal in mind. It would be counterproductive to prefer fighting a different way than what you are training for in the system, especially if it is by methods that contradict the strategy, like sticking and locking. We train specifically to avoid those things.

As for your second response, many mainland branches are infected with the same illness. It's unfortunate, as there are some very skilled & knowledgeable individuals who practice these branches of Wing Chun that I would consinder on the fringes of orthodoxy. Others, well, it is what it is. I can't dismiss a branch as not being Wing Chun simply because of poor representatives, especially when I know good ones exist, no matter how sparse.

I am not closed to the idea of other YM lineages being very good. It's just that most I've seen are not.

 

[wckf92]

Various YM lineages differ for varying degrees of understanding. We know most never completed the system, because only 4 ever even learned the knife form from YM.

I've heard this too. So, does this mean that YM's last / final curriculum component was/is the knives?

 

[Nobody Important]

Guy B.

------So there isn't a little idea?

I've explained what the "Little Idea" is in YWC. The "Idea" isn't strategy, it's concept. The two, though symbiotically linked, are not the same thing.


---------Nope, I'm looking for the basic thing that makes VT what it is.

I don't know what makes VT what it is, hence me asking you. I do YWC, and have explained what makes it YWC. I feel you don't comprehend YWC because you continuously try to inject your idealization of what Wing Chun is as an overlay. It won't work because of how YWC is broken down, very different than WSLPBVT I'm sure.


--------If the description above is your explantion of the little idea, then the YCW wing chun system appears to be in no way related to YM VT. It sounds much more in line with other Southern Chinese systems.

See above.


--------What is the idea?

What indeed, I'm not going to explain it again. Reread my previous posts .


-------Sorry, none of this means anything to me. You will need to be more straight forward

If you want lessons just ask, and put forth the effort to come see me. I'm not in the business of offering online instruction. I've done my best to simplify and explain the concept, without hands on it's difficult to understand.


---------Sounds a lot more similar to something like SPM than to YM VT. VT is different

I wouldn't know I've never studied SPM, neither has my Sifu, but just because, and I don't mean this as degrading, it is beyond your comprehension level doesn't mean that it isn't Wing Chun.


------The general strategy of VM VT is described here:The VT strategy is all about the application of pressure (loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chun)- space pressure, time pressure, distance pressure. We intercept and cut into the attack, disrupting the opponent. We apply forward pressure, cutting the way and eating up space. We force mistakes from the opponent in this way, i.e. they show us how to hit them (kiu loi kiu seung) which we do using the whole body as one, and if not then we create openings by other means (mor kiu ji jou kiu). At all times we pressure the centre rather than chase hands. By linking neutraliation and striking (lin siu dai da) we defend automatically as we attack, which increases the time and space pressure on the opponent, making us appear faster than we really are.

Though some of these elements are present within the "Little Idea" of YWC they are a by product, strategy is not our "Little Idea". What you have described is tactical approach/strategy/methodology and contains the same elements as found in the Yuen Family strategy of Position, Bridge, Control, Hit, Return. These are simply tag lines that represent our strategic approach which is separate from what the "Little Idea" represents. The "Little Idea" in YWC is the concept of adaptation/morphology, I've already explained it at length. You are confusing what we call strategy with what you call the "Little Idea", which to YWC is conceptual and different than strategy. Our Siu Lim Tau is for reinforcement and refinement of elements related to our strategy and concepts, because it is viewed as a repository and not as the main transmission of instruction.


-------What is being trained in SNT is the little idea. Nobody has provided equivalent info

I have provided plenty of information concerning YWC concept of "Little Idea". I think perhaps what you are looking for is explanation of strategy. If so, that has also been touched on. I simply haven't gone into depth with it. You've already elaborated on what your strategy is and I'll confirm that ours is the same, it is simply sectioned and cataloged under the divisions of Position, Bridge, Control, Hit and Return. It's broken up for ease of learning.

I hope that clarifies things for you, if not sorry, it's hard to describe an abstraction.

 

[Nobody Important]

But the systems themselves and what they are teaching have apparently changed quite a bit. The YMVT strategy is specific and developed at each step of the system with the end goal in mind. It would be counterproductive to prefer fighting a different way than what you are training for in the system, especially if it is by methods that contradict the strategy, like sticking and locking. We train specifically to avoid those things.

I'm not denying that at all, I was simply saying that there are still overlapping elements of commonality. It takes a cohesive interjection of strategic concept to effectively alter an overall approach or addendum to what currently exists. Assuming one wished to pursue that route. Nothing wrong with differing approaches to Wing Chun, IMO, but understandably the strategy, concepts and application have to be cohesive and unified. If not, I would agree that the method is "broken".

 

[LFJ]

I've heard this too. So, does this mean that YM's last / final curriculum component was/is the knives?

Yes. It's important not to start knives too soon, because the strategy and tactics may interfere with development of the core.

But they are also a necessary component in understanding VT in full, since knife concepts are introduced/related to parts of earlier forms and drills, and are analogous to Biu-ji strategy. Understanding knives broadens strategy and awareness of danger and improves things like mobility to a great extent.

I think not only did no more than 4 people ever get to the knives (form at least) in YM's system, but many didn't even reach the BJ form, because this is where we see the largest divergence between lineages beginning. Some ideas of what the form teaches are waaay out there.

 

[wckf92]

Yes. It's important not to start knives too soon, because the strategy and tactics may interfere with development of the core.

But they are also a necessary component in understanding VT in full, since knife concepts are introduced/related to parts of earlier forms and drills, and are analogous to Biu-ji strategy. Understanding knives broadens strategy and awareness of danger and improves things like mobility to a great extent.

I think not only did no more than 4 people ever get to the knives (form at least) in YM's system, but many didn't even reach the BJ form, because this is where we see the largest divergence between lineages beginning. Some ideas of what the form teaches are waaay out there.

Huh. Interesting.
Agree completely on the broadening of mobility bit!
So I'm assuming WSL was one of the four(?)...
I've never read or heard that the knives are linked to Biu Ji...interesting.

 

[LFJ]

Huh. Interesting.
Agree completely on the broadening of mobility bit!
So I'm assuming WSL was one of the four(?)...
I've never read or heard that the knives are linked to Biu Ji...interesting.

Yes, obviously WSL received the full system.

Some who don't understand Biu-ji strategy or knives try to make the knives a simple extension of the core empty-hand strategy, which is suicide.

You can't just go in and attack when your opponent is armed with blades too. Unlike a spent punch, a knife can still slice you on the way back, or at any time.

With knives, the opponent's wrists become targets as we evade, before we can safely enter and attack the core. That's why mobility is improved greatly by VT knife training, for the awareness of danger of bladed weapons. It is not core VT strategy.

 

[KPM]

You could only think this from the point of view of not understanding YM VT. If what Nobody Important posted is a good representation of his system, then it doesn't have a little idea per se, isn't related to YM VT, and I don't see that there is anything to discuss really.



Geezer has been very generous as he usually is. I don't agree with his understanding of the form. LFJ has posted very useful info about the WSL VT system on the teaching clip thread if you are interested.



It isn't for you KPM. If you don't want it then simply stop replying to threads. Your behavour is stalkerish

Post #370 on this thread about comparing SNT between lineages and you still haven't explained the "little idea" in WSLVT's SNT in any depth at all.

 

[Nobody Important]

GUY B SAID: ↑
You could only think this from the point of view of not understanding YM VT. If what Nobody Important posted is a good representation of his system, then it doesn't have a little idea per se, isn't related to YM VT, and I don't see that there is anything to discuss really.

I'll admit to not being an authority on Yuen family Wing Chun. I think to do so would be arrogant. Each of our understanding of what the "Little Idea" represents is different. But this by no means doesn't mean it is non-existent in YWC. It is just different to yours.

 

[LFJ]

I'm not familiar with YCW WC. Is this your SLT form?

Also, I don't see any similarities to YMVT in the use of this style, at all. It looks unrelated.