Siu Lim Tau Comparison

[guy b]

Thank you for your openness and willingness to share!

What do want me say about it that google can't provide? We don't have a secret handshake or cool uniforms. No secret history, extra moves, online learning. Just boring old snt.

 

[LFJ]

You guys were so adamant that there was no Tan Da in WSLVT dispite plenty of evidence to the contrary. When that was pointed out, you had all kinds of excuses...."WSL only did that in seminars because people expected it......" etc. I was simply showing that neither of you are the consummate experts that you seem to think you are.

And you are still wrong and clinging to your misunderstanding of what WSL taught.

 

[KPM]

What do want me say about it that google can't provide? We don't have a secret handshake or cool uniforms. No secret history, extra moves, online learning. Just boring old snt.

So. You are now on post #341 and have never bother to share your perspective of the "central theme" or "central idea" running through your SNT form, despite being asked now multiple times. You trivialize it all with your comments above. Other's have shared openly about their understanding of SNT, but not you. And you don't see a problem with that?

 

[guy b]

Other's have shared openly about their understanding of SNT, but not you. And you don't see a problem with that?

Nobody has shared any detail of snt. Juany googled some info which he then ran away from explaining despite earlier claims.

Nobody important talked about a completely different system not related to VT. Apparently in that system the main idea behind a similar form is that you apply lots of different ideas, none of which was discussed.

I guess in that kind of vein we could say that the main idea in snt is that there is an idea that is important.

 

[Juany118]

Little, by no means, translates as single. A little thought can be about an expanding concept.

Ambiguous is having a double meaning, abstract is an idea that has no concrete representation. Both are fitting descriptions and IMO actually linked.

In Yuen family the action/shapes are not applications in and of themselves they require concept to be applied. Again the shapes don't have a singular purpose or use, so yes in Yuen family they can be applied multiple ways (like Lego's) because they are simply an idea/notion. Since you don't have grappling in WSLVT this concept will be foreign to you and contradictory to your methodology..

Our intention is change. Our Little Idea is "Listening" and "Understanding". In CMA the designations of Siu & Dai are minor & major, primary & secondary if you like, not the literal small & big. In Yuen family, the Little Idea is literally the primary idea/approach, which is adaptation/change. Again the little idea is not our form, it's a foundational construct.

On your first point I often use this example, "how long is a piece of string from one fixed point to another." I will simplify the debate for the purposes of the metaphor but Google it, the complicated answers will blow your mind.

You can lay it out flat and put a tape measure next to it and get a measurement. You fold it back on itself and glue it and hand to me.

I then get a different measurement. I then fuse the ends with it in the shape of a mobius loop and hand it to @KPM .

KPM will be unable to measure it and in essence be able to say the string that was 2 feet long for you, 1 foot long for me has infinite length to him.

In short it's the same piece of string but a seemingly simple question or idea can become almost infinitely complex, not because it is by its very nature, the state of the object never changes, but because of the perceptions of the viewer and how deep into the rabbit hole they want to go.

 

[wtxs]

Nobody has shared any detail of snt. Juany googled some info which he then ran away from explaining despite earlier claims.

Nobody important talked about a completely different system not related to VT. Apparently in that system the main idea behind a similar form is that you apply lots of different ideas, none of which was discussed.

I guess in that kind of vein we could say that the main idea in snt is that there is an idea that is important.

Still waiting for you or LFJ to elaborate what this one idea of your VT SLT represent ... likely there is a better chance of snow in hell?

Judging by the reluctance we had encountered so far, either it's a secret you're forbidden to reveal ... or you just have no clue.

Your likely retort is to for me to present my meaning of SLT, why should I bother when your one idea is the end of all.

 

[LFJ]

I already stated;

In YMVT, the "little idea" is about the general strategy. This information is imbedded into every part of the system and is not obvious. It requires accurate transmission from a teacher who knows the full system well.

I don't offer online training programs, so if you want a full tutorial of the system from me, you will have to travel.

 

[KPM]

I already stated;

In YMVT, the "little idea" is about the general strategy. This information is imbedded into every part of the system and is not obvious. It requires accurate transmission from a teacher who knows the full system well.

I don't offer online training programs, so if you want a full tutorial of the system from me, you will have to travel.

Typical! Complain and complain about people not wanting to take part in a technical discussion with you, and then you make a comment like this! Geez!

 

[Nobody Important]

Yes, other CMAs often use Siu and Daai to name mother-son forms or complimentary subsystems.

Is there a Daai idea, form or subsystem to your WC? If not, it doesn't really make sense to have minor without major, or primary without secondary, Siu without Daai.

Actually, yes, we have both Siu & Dai concencepts.

Also, you said you don't even use the term nim-tau (idea), and that it may have been changed to this by YM? But then you talk about the "little idea" in your system.

So, I'm a bit confused as to why you have an interpretation of it. Is this something you came up with yourself or has your system borrowed and reinterpreted the terminology from YM?

Borrowed for the sake of explaining. The " Little Idea" concept in our system is actually called "Threading the Shuttle". Threading has big & small aspects that run through everything, linking them.

As an aside, the third character, tau, is a suffix for nouns. It doesn't carry the literal meaning of "head" or figurative meaning of "first" in this case. As an adjective, it would need to come before the noun it's describing.

In nim-tau (idea) and lin-tau (training) it acts just as a suffix. So, Siu-lin-tau, as you use would mean "little training (set)". It would make sense to have a Siu with or without a Daai if that is all it means, not so much if it means minor or primary without a Daai.

For us, there is no Daai because VT is just this one "little idea", a simple approach to fighting.

Thank you for clarifying that, seems I did hear that before, but my Chinese isn't very good. We have Little Training & Big Training, though honestly I'm not fond of the Big Training.

 

[Nobody Important]

On your first point I often use this example, "how long is a piece of string from one fixed point to another." I will simplify the debate for the purposes of the metaphor but Google it, the complicated answers will blow your mind.

You can lay it out flat and put a tape measure next to it and get a measurement. You fold it back on itself and glue it and hand to me.

I then get a different measurement. I then fuse the ends with it in the shape of a mobius loop and hand it to @KPM .

KPM will be unable to measure it and in essence be able to say the string that was 2 feet long for you, 1 foot long for me has infinite length to him.

In short it's the same piece of string but a seemingly simple question or idea can become almost infinitely complex, not because it is by its very nature, the state of the object never changes, but because of the perceptions of the viewer and how deep into the rabbit hole they want to go.

Good analogy, some will fail to comprehend.

 

[Nobody Important]

Nobody important talked about a completely different system not related to VT. Apparently in that system the main idea behind a similar form is that you apply lots of different ideas, none of which was discussed.

The main idea behind our Siu Lim Tau set is "Primary Training" for a lack of a better wording. An expanding concept of adaptation is present in all forms. The purpose of our Siu Lim Tau is refining & reinforcing basic San Sik learned prior. It is also where we start introducing conceptual thought.

The Yuan family Wing Chun method is learned entirely through San Sik and supported by the forms. The forms are simply repositories of theory, meant to be dissected and are not literal.

 

[Nobody Important]

I feel I have been more than forthcoming with information and have tried to explain things in terms people can at least identify with, even if it isn't used correctly. I have provided depth, it would be appreciated if others would provide some detail into their interpretations as well.

 

[Nobody Important]

I already stated;

In YMVT, the "little idea" is about the general strategy. This information is imbedded into every part of the system and is not obvious. It requires accurate transmission from a teacher who knows the full system well.

I don't offer online training programs, so if you want a full tutorial of the system from me, you will have to travel.

To your understanding, what is this general strategy?

 

[guy b]

I feel I have been more than forthcoming with information and have tried to explain things in terms people can at least identify with, even if it isn't used correctly. I have provided depth, it would be appreciated if others would provide some detail into their interpretations as well.

The main idea behind our Siu Lim Tau set is "Primary Training" for a lack of a better wording. An expanding concept of adaptation is present in all forms. The purpose of our Siu Lim Tau is refining & reinforcing basic San Sik learned prior. It is also where we start introducing conceptual thought.

The Yuan family Wing Chun method is learned entirely through San Sik and supported by the forms. The forms are simply repositories of theory, meant to be dissected and are not literal.

As someone with no experience of your system, you haven't helped me in terms of understanding what you do. You have described how the system is structured, but not the ideas behind. As I said before, this is something like saying "the little idea is thinking which is important to the system, and which is required for SNT not just to be a load of empty shapes." Doesn't really help you to learn what it is.

 

[Nobody Important]

As someone with no experience of your system, you haven't helped me in terms of understanding what you do. You have described how the system is structured, but not the ideas behind. As I said before, this is something like saying "the little idea is thinking which is important to the system, and which is explored in SNT." Doesn't really help you to learn what it is.

There is a lot of information. I don't wish to write a book to explain

As someone with no experience of your system, you haven't helped me in terms of understanding what you do. You have described how the system is structured, but not the ideas behind. As I said before, this is something like saying "the little idea is thinking which is important to the system, and which is required for SNT not just to be a load of empty shapes." Doesn't really help you to learn what it is.

The SNT/SLT is just a form, it is an abstract collection of shapes that are yet to be defined. I don't want to write a book on it, nor do I offer online instruction. If you want specifics, ask. There is a ton of information in Yuen family Wing Chun, without specific questions I generalize to present a whole. I have clearly explained our concept of SLT, so I'm not sure want you are looking for specifically. Are you looking at ideas like centerline, structure, gates, motherline, force generation, jin patterns etc. The art isn't any different than yours, per say, other than how theory, methodology and strategy is approached.

Aside from a liberal interpretation of these things I would surmise that Yip Man & Yuen Chai Wan Wing Chun have way more in common than not. All movement/shapes are in themselves useless until an "Idea" is put to it and tested. Concept/Theory dictates how a shape is used most effectively, transition is key. Think of it as a clock face, in example 12 is Tan Sau as the shape moves it adapts, by the time it reaches 3 it may be Pak Sau and by the time it transitions to 6 it is Gum Sau. In a cross pattern, if Jung Bong Sau is top as it transitions down it becomes Lan Sau and when it goes right it is Dai Bong Sau and going left it becomes Pi Jou. Hard to explain without demonstrating in person. The ability of a simple shape to adapt is an important concept in Yuen family Wing Chun. Threading the Shuttle/Needle or Weaving is a central theme that speaks to fluid transition and adaptation. There is much more than just this, but without the ability to transform shape Yuen family Wing Chun is useless.

Our basic strategy (abbreviated) is Position, Bridge, Control, Hit and Return. There is a great deal of depth to this that I don't want to spend hours typing up. So if you or anyone else has questions on specifics please make them brief and to a relative point. My time is limited.

Now could you please elaborate (with some specifics) a bit on what you understand to be the "Little Idea" / General Strategy of WSLPBVT as presented in SNT?

 

[Juany118]

The main idea behind our Siu Lim Tau set is "Primary Training" for a lack of a better wording. An expanding concept of adaptation is present in all forms. The purpose of our Siu Lim Tau is refining & reinforcing basic San Sik learned prior. It is also where we start introducing conceptual thought.

The Yuan family Wing Chun method is learned entirely through San Sik and supported by the forms. The forms are simply repositories of theory, meant to be dissected and are not literal.

In TWC we see this as feeding into each other, a cycle so to speak. Perform the form, in san sik (we just call them drills at my school) experience the potential applications. In doing this you better understand and thus perform the form and then better understand and perform the drill. Each feeds upon the other in a holistic manner.

 

[geezer]

Here's a few rambling thoughts from the perspective of the YM-VT I train. Our Siu Nim Tau (Little Idea Form) in fact teaches many things -- stance, structure, proper positioning of the torso and limbs, especially regarding centerline and elbow positioning... essentially all the seeds for success in the system.

....So collectively some would say that SNT is the DNA, or the little seed from which the entire system is developed. I do not disagree, but this is not what I understand to be the core meaning of SNT.

Another way of looking at it is to say that the very name of SNT is equally descriptive and prescriptive, or a motto, meaning that the student should seek simplicity and directness rather than grandiose ambitions, avoiding flowery hands or elaborate and flamboyant movements. Just as the form is seemingly simple and a unassuming, so the student should maintain his focus on simplicity, getting this "little thing" right. Again, I do not dispute the value of this advice, but to me, this still misses the essence of SNT.

So what is this essence? Well, when I look at what is behind every position, movement, and energy trained in SNT, they all really express one idea. Loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung. That is the "little idea" I see in SNT, and it is the essence of my strategy in my VT.

Now maybe I study broken VT, and maybe I've missed the point. But at least I've done my best to share my perspective, as far as can be done briefly in words alone.

 

[Juany118]

Here's a few rambling thoughts from the perspective of the YM-VT I train. Our Siu Nim Tau (Little Idea Form) in fact teaches many things -- stance, structure, proper positioning of the torso and limbs, especially regarding centerline and elbow positioning... essentially all the seeds for success in the system.

....So collectively some would say that SNT is the DNA, or the little seed from which the entire system is developed. I do not disagree, but this is not what I understand to be the core meaning of SNT.

Mine is the same but I use a different term. I remember once asking "why do only the later forms have movement because fighting has movement?" The answer I received I noted earlier, in part when I used the term alphabet. I was told "SLT is the alphabet. You need to know the letters before you can write the words that make up language."

Personally I thought this was indeed a "little idea". I don't picture kids watching a Sesame Street skit sponsored by the letter "Q" as dealing with a "big idea" but maybe mine is "broken" too. If it is, I don't want it fixed because I can testify that it has let me deal with situations in such a way that it has kept me from being a YouTube sensation.

 

[LFJ]

I don't want to write a book on it, nor do I offer online instruction.

Likewise.

Our basic strategy (abbreviated) is Position, Bridge, Control, Hit and Return.

From a YMVT viewpoint,

Position = ours in relation to attack lines
Bridge = attack line, not arm contact
Control = of space, not arms
Hit = yes
Return = go home after finishing?

 

[KPM]

Likewise.



From a YMVT viewpoint,

Position = ours in relation to attack lines
Bridge = attack line, not arm contact
Control = of space, not arms
Hit = yes
Return = go home after finishing?

You do realize that NB was just parroting you, right? And yet he still posted far more depth of understanding for his lineage's SNT form that you have for WSLVT. So has Geezer, using only a very brief post.....not a "book"!!! It seems that there are some things you are willing to share and explain.....like a drill that is part of just about every single WSLVT demo video ever posted on youtube....and some things you are not. So maybe you two shouldn't be pressing everyone else to share information that you yourself are unwilling to share! A discussion forum is supposed to be an exchange. Not a soapbox for someone to point out how great their lineage is and how "broken" everyone else's lineage is! We don't need you here to "educate the masses" on the wonders of WSLVT, as Guy seems to think.