Siu Lim Tau Comparison

[guy b]

Siu Nim Tau (Little Imagination/Idea) - It leads one to contemplate "what is the idea" or to "use imagination". It is philosophical.

Unless of course it refers to a simple and straight forward idea. There is only any need to contemplate or use imagination if one doesn't know the thinking behind the form.

 

[LFJ]

Unless of course it refers to a simple and straight forward idea. There is only any need to contemplate or use imagination if one doesn't know the thinking behind the form.

Right. The word means thought; idea; intention.
词语“念头”的解释 汉典 zdic.net

It means what specifically one has in mind, the exact meaning being the actions that is important to know.

It has nothing to do with using imagination or contemplating what the idea is, unless you haven't been taught what it is and are left to make something up on your own.

 

[KPM]

Unless of course it refers to a simple and straight forward idea. There is only any need to contemplate or use imagination if one doesn't know the thinking behind the form.

Maybe I missed it, but have you guys yet explained the "little idea" or "thinking" from the WSLVT SNT form?

 

[Nobody Important]

Right. The word means thought; idea; intention.
词语“念头”的解释 汉典 zdic.net

It means what specifically one has in mind, the exact meaning being the actions that is important to know.

It has nothing to do with using imagination or contemplating what the idea is, unless you haven't been taught what it is and are left to make something up on your own.

Nim Tau (Nian Tou) literally means thought, idea or intention. So little thought/idea/intention, not a stretch to refer to it as contemplation. It's actually somewhat ambiguous and has been interpreted several ways, I didn't make it up just going by what several Chinese teachers have told me. Besides I don't use the Siu Nim Tau term I use Siu Lim Tau. From my understanding Yip Man is the one who changed the name, as he did with the second form. From Sinking Bridges to Seeking Bridges.

I'm not judging, but it seems to me that your interpretation doesn't allow for concept adaptability when you refer to "the exact meaning being the actions that is important to know." Seems like linear thinking to me, but I could be wrong.

 

[guy b]

it seems to me that your interpretation doesn't allow for concept adaptability when you refer to "the exact meaning being the actions that is important to know." Seems like linear thinking to me, but I could be wrong.

The thinking behind the movements, the "little idea" is the important part of the form in WSL VT. It isn't an invitation to stand there meditating or to make up your own ideas. Without knowing what this thinking is then hard to say how adaptable it might be.

Thinking of the form as a set of techniques to be applied is an example of personal ideas encroaching when the basic thinking is missing.

 

[guy b]

Maybe I missed it, but have you guys yet explained the "little idea" or "thinking" from the WSLVT SNT form?

I was busy trying to get Juany to tell us, since he seemed to know where to find it on google and seemed sure that he understood a common thread running through the different wing chun systems including WSL VT

You see KPM, it is all about the way you approach it. I know how you approach it, and it seems Juany is taking a similar route. Can you put ego aside, or not? Is it more important to pretend you know (and so never learn) than to admit you don't and at least start to learn?

If not interested in WSL VT then not important, just ignore. But it seems you are interested for some reason?

 

[KPM]

^^^^^^ You are so full of BS that it isn't even funny anymore. This is really getting kind of old. So I will point out....once again....that a "friendly" discussion is all about sharing information freely. You have quizzed Juany multiple times to get him to share what he knows....and yet you have never bothered to share your perspective from WSLVT, despite being asked several times. You continue to "bait" people into stating something you can go after rather than just sharing your own perspective up front. "I was busy trying to get Juany to tell us........" Why weren't you busy sharing your own perspective??? And it certainly is all in the way you approach it! I agree with you there! But your approach is not good!!! You aren't the grand authority on WSLVT put here to enlighten all of us "mere mortals" about how wonderful WSLVT is and how "broken" everyone else's Wing Chun is. You are certainly the one that needs to put ego aside and simply start sharing info on an even field....if that is what YOU are truly interested in! Otherwise, stop this "chinese master" BS of trying to "teach" us all the error of our ways!

I will point out that this is a thread specifically about sharing views on the SNT form, and you just made post #326 and yet the "view" of WSLVT's SNT has not yet been shared.

 

[guy b]

You have quizzed Juany multiple times to get him to share what he knows....and yet you have never bothered to share your perspective from WSLVT, despite being asked several times

That's because he claimed to know about a common thread running through different wing chun systems. I didn't make him claim that. And also because he answered Paitingman's question on this thread about the "little idea", but then googled when asked what he meant. Again I didn't make him do that.

 

[guy b]

You are certainly the one that needs to put ego aside

I have learned a lot from many WSL VT posters on the old WSL forum, on Kungfu Magazine forums, and also on this forum. There are more experienced people posting and lurking here right now and when they provide explanation of something I am confused about it certainly helps me to understand better. I don't tend to argue a lot with them when they are being helpful in this way because that would be stupid. I have argued in the past and again that was stupid but I am glad to say I made myself put ego aside and actually read and think about what they were saying. Reading on forums was a big part of what made me leave my old teacher for example, which required me to discard a lot of past "experience" and start again in a new approach.

Another good martial arts experience which helped me to overcome ego was beginning BJJ after doing a lot of judo. Judo gave some advantages which helped in some respects, but on the ground it is not BJJ. In order to learn BJJ and not get hurt I had to leave my ego to one side and accept that I was going to get beaten a lot before I would improve my ground skills. This was very helpful in making me see that life is too short to cling on to things for the sake of appearance.

simply start sharing info

It is mostly one way traffic and pointless argument with you KPM. For example your extended quest to expose wrongness on the question of tan da. I can't think of any exchange where I have come away with useful information. There aren't many people I can say that about.

 

[guy b]

the "view" of WSLVT's SNT has not yet been shared.

Nobody's view SNT has been shared, unless this is all there is (I hope not). So far it is all surface, no meat.

 

[Nobody Important]

The thinking behind the movements, the "little idea" is the important part of the form in WSL VT. It isn't an invitation to stand there meditating or to make up your own ideas. Without knowing what this thinking is then hard to say how adaptable it might be.

Thinking of the form as a set of techniques to be applied is an example of personal ideas encroaching when the basic thinking is missing.

I get that. Personally, the way I was taught is that the movements in the forms are simply dead shapes until concept is applied. Shapes will take on a variety of concepts depending how they are utilized and/or interpreted. Some concepts work better than others but no shape is limited to just one concept only. In Yuen family Wing Chun limiting a shape by defining it to a singular thing inhibits it from being able to bridge, strike or lock when the situation demands. Adaptation and understanding of fluid transition is necessary.

The " Little Idea" is understanding that a simple shape is not limited but adaptable, that concept is not bound by form. I suppose in a way this requires "imagination" but I prefer to think of it as contemplative analysis.

"Listening" and "Understanding" are integral aspect of Yuen family Wing Chun. These aspects determine what concept is applied to a shape based upon intention or reaction. As I stated earlier, this "Little Idea" is not limited to our first form, but embedded within all the forms. Our Siu Lim Tau (Little First/Head/Beginning Training) is simply a measured reinforcement/refinement of our basics and not a specific introduction to the "Little Idea".

Yuen family adheres to "What you learn today, you use today" mentality. Simplicity and practicality come first, construction of ideas second. Refinement comes from applied use & the "Little Idea" comes from understanding how things can be modified, adapted or changed based upon "Listening" and "Understanding". This approach is also why some aspects of Biu Jee are taught in the beginning.

I hope that clarifies my understanding of SNT/SLT as it applies to Yuen family Wing Chun.

How is it viewed/explained in WSLVT?

 

[LFJ]

Nim Tau (Nian Tou) literally means thought, idea or intention. So little thought/idea/intention, not a stretch to refer to it as contemplation.

I think it is a stretch to go from one "little idea" to "contemplation" which is "thoughtful", thought-full, full of thoughts, many thoughts, not just one little one.

It's actually somewhat ambiguous and has been interpreted several ways,

The idea I have is abstract, but not ambiguous. It is interpreted many ways by people who never received the thinking.

I'm not judging, but it seems to me that your interpretation doesn't allow for concept adaptability when you refer to "the exact meaning being the actions that is important to know." Seems like linear thinking to me, but I could be wrong.

The actions of SNT and other parts of the system are not applications, in WSLVT, so there is no "concept adaptability" as in "how many ways can I apply this shape in fighting?"

The " Little Idea" is understanding that a simple shape is not limited but adaptable, that concept is not bound by form. I suppose in a way this requires "imagination" but I prefer to think of it as contemplative analysis.

"Listening" and "Understanding" are integral aspect of Yuen family Wing Chun. These aspects determine what concept is applied to a shape based upon intention or reaction.

Sounds like more than one idea, thought, or intention then.

If the intention can change, it's not the same little intention.

If the "little idea" is about unlimited adaptability, then it sounds like a rather "big idea" or unlimited ideas. Why is it called the little idea?

In YMVT, the "little idea" is about the general strategy. This information is imbedded into every part of the system and is not obvious. It requires accurate transmission from a teacher who knows the full system well.

 

[Nobody Important]

I think it is a stretch to go from one "little idea" to "contemplation" which is "thoughtful", thought-full, full of thoughts, many thoughts, not just one little one.

Little, by no means, translates as single. A little thought can be about an expanding concept.

The idea I have is abstract, but not ambiguous. It is interpreted many ways by people who never received the thinking.

Ambiguous is having a double meaning, abstract is an idea that has no concrete representation. Both are fitting descriptions and IMO actually linked.

The actions of SNT and other parts of the system are not applications, in WSLVT, so there is no "concept adaptability" as in "how many ways can I apply this shape in fighting?"

In Yuen family the action/shapes are not applications in and of themselves they require concept to be applied. Again the shapes don't have a singular purpose or use, so yes in Yuen family they can be applied multiple ways (like Lego's) because they are simply an idea/notion. Since you don't have grappling in WSLVT this concept will be foreign to you and contradictory to your methodology..

Sounds like more than one idea, thought, or intention then. If the intention can change, it's not the same little intention.
If the "little idea" is about unlimited adaptability, then it sounds like a rather "big idea" or unlimited ideas. Why is it called the little idea? In YMVT, the "little idea" is about the general strategy. This information is imbedded into every part of the system and is not obvious. It requires accurate transmission from a teacher who knows the full system well.

Our intention is change. Our Little Idea is "Listening" and "Understanding". In CMA the designations of Siu & Dai are minor & major, primary & secondary if you like, not the literal small & big. In Yuen family, the Little Idea is literally the primary idea/approach, which is adaptation/change. Again the little idea is not our form, it's a foundational construct.

 

[LFJ]

In CMA the designations of Siu & Dai are minor & major, primary & secondary if you like, not the literal small & big.

Yes, other CMAs often use Siu and Daai to name mother-son forms or complimentary subsystems.

Is there a Daai idea, form or subsystem to your WC? If not, it doesn't really make sense to have minor without major, or primary without secondary, Siu without Daai.

Also, you said you don't even use the term nim-tau (idea), and that it may have been changed to this by YM? But then you talk about the "little idea" in your system.

So, I'm a bit confused as to why you have an interpretation of it. Is this something you came up with yourself or has your system borrowed and reinterpreted the terminology from YM?

As an aside, the third character, tau, is a suffix for nouns. It doesn't carry the literal meaning of "head" or figurative meaning of "first" in this case. As an adjective, it would need to come before the noun it's describing.

In nim-tau (idea) and lin-tau (training) it acts just as a suffix. So, Siu-lin-tau, as you use would mean "little training (set)". It would make sense to have a Siu with or without a Daai if that is all it means, not so much if it means minor or primary without a Daai.

For us, there is no Daai because VT is just this one "little idea", a simple approach to fighting.

 

[JPinAZ]

Cool! Well done! And directed by the forum's own Jonathan Sandberg (JP in AZ)!

Haha, thanks
I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I'll see if I can answer any comments regarding the clip or HFY that Eric_H hasn't already touched on

I wish they had put the lineage name above or below each video, to make it easier to keep up with which style is which. Probably more useful to those of us not familiar with the different styles.

Good catch! While their names & lineages each are presenting are listed in the beginning, there was nothing that said which was in which position in the clip (but it seems most did figure it out).
I also feel the timing got a bit disjointed in the 3rd section. So maybe if I ever got around to a rework, if I don't have the lineage names at the bottom thru the entire clip, showing which is which in the opening of the first section (or prior to) would help.

I get the feeling this video was designed to make Moy Yat/Yip Man guys look bad and make HFY look good while piquing people's interest at its apparent similarity to TWC. At least choose a good example of each one if you're going to do a video like this.

Being involved in the origination of this comparison, I'll only say there was no 'intent' behind the clip other than presenting the 3 distinct lineages side by side in any easier manner for others to compare/contrast. I think it's a pretty cool idea to break down SNT from the 3 lines section-by-section side-by-side to see similarities and also what makes each distinct/unique. But I assure you, there was no hidden or nefarious motive/agenda beyond that.

And, as Eric_H said in Post #128, all 3 presenters in the clip come from very respectable and well-known family trees in each line with many years experience in each (talking over 10 years for each). If you're not happy with what's shown, feel free to make your own clip or suggest where something is incorrect.
Otherwise, hopefully this puts the subject to rest.

 

[KPM]

Nobody's view SNT has been shared, unless this is all there is (I hope not). So far it is all surface, no meat.

And yet you still haven't even provided the equivalent level of "surface" for WSLVT!

 

[KPM]

I

It is mostly one way traffic and pointless argument with you KPM. For example your extended quest to expose wrongness on the question of tan da. I can't think of any exchange where I have come away with useful information. There aren't many people I can say that about.

Another big line of BS! You haven't come away with useful information simply because you aren't interested in anything that isn't WSLVT. Every argument or discussion ends up being pointless with you because you are incapable of seeing another viewpoint. You guys were so adamant that there was no Tan Da in WSLVT dispite plenty of evidence to the contrary. When that was pointed out, you had all kinds of excuses...."WSL only did that in seminars because people expected it......" etc. I was simply showing that neither of you are the consummate experts that you seem to think you are. You just made a nice and humble post above, but we've seen that before and it didn't last. Therefore I have come to doubt your sincerity.

 

[guy b]

And yet you still haven't even provided the equivalent level of "surface" for WSLVT!

People have googled the surface understanding. What more is there to say?

 

[guy b]

Another big line of BS! You haven't come away with useful information simply because you aren't interested in anything that isn't WSLVT. Every argument or discussion ends up being pointless with you because you are incapable of seeing another viewpoint. You guys were so adamant that there was no Tan Da in WSLVT dispite plenty of evidence to the contrary. When that was pointed out, you had all kinds of excuses...."WSL only did that in seminars because people expected it......" etc. I was simply showing that neither of you are the consummate experts that you seem to think you are. You just made a nice and humble post above, but we've seen that before and it didn't last. Therefore I have come to doubt your sincerity.

On the contrary I am very interested in several other YM derived systems. Unfortunately the people involved in those are not willing to talk about them.

I am not all that interested from a technical point of view in completely different systems like yours which share a similar name, but I am interested in a historical and general info kind of way.

Tan da is not used as you have tried to show in wsl vt. I have no idea why you are interested in lecturing someone else about the system they practice and which you don't. You share a lot with juany in this respect. He's a funny guy

If you think my humble post is nice then please read again and try to understand. It wasn't intended to grovel and make you feel good, but instead to help you learn something you need to learn.

 

[KPM]

People have googled the surface understanding. What more is there to say?

Thank you for your openness and willingness to share!