Siu Lim Tau Comparison

[Vajramusti]

Jowga------------wing chun is full of motion.The slt first develops good body structure.

 

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE="KPM,

Sorry for the diversion Mattattack. But this kind of thing has been going on so long from these two that its time we all stop tolerating it.[/QUOTE]-
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I suggest just ignoring them.

 

[Vajramusti]

Does that huen Sao perform a clearing action?

Yes-but there is more to it, including control

 

[guy b]

It describes SLT, that is what is asked here, that is what I answered. I am not playing a semantics game with you so you can have your gotcha moment.

That's not true Juany. You were responding to Paitingman who asked about what 'little idea' means in your wing Chun. Since you chose to respond I can't see what the problem with elaborating would be, or what possible reason you think it could be some kind of gotcha trap. If I complain about what you have said from the perspective of wsl vt (I won't) you can just state truthfully that they are different systems. How could it possibly hurt you?

The only possible reason I can think of for your failure to reply is that you don't know what the little idea is in twc. If so then why not ask your teacher and post it here? I would be interested to know.

LFJ is also correct that you made an earlier claim about a common thread running through wsl vt and twc. I wasn't bothering with this because I think obvious you only said earlier because we were arguing and not a serous comment

 

[KPM]

^^^^^^ Geezlouizze! Isn't it pretty obvious? You still seem to be trolling to me.

At its simplest level, the "little idea" behind the SNT form is to train the beginning student in the "ABC's" as Juany said. This refers to the basics of the system. The beginning student is learning the position for a Tan Sau, a Bong Sau, a Punch, etc. They are learning to assume a stable structure with the stance. They are learning to use smooth relaxed motion by going slow. SNT is the "foundational" form. THIS is the common thread and one of the "little ideas" running through everyone's SNT, including WSLVT. Unless you think that the WSLVT isn't teaching basic technique and position?? And Juany never said that this the "one and only" little idea in the form.

 

[guy b]

It appears that Juany has only posted things he found on google, paraphrasing YM in his first reply to Paitingman for example.

As people have said before things like training abc's is a description of what the form consists of rather than the thinking behind it. If this is the "common thread" running through all wc then ok fine, but also fairly pointless to say given its obviousness.

 

[LFJ]

At its simplest level, the "little idea" behind the SNT form is to train the beginning student in the "ABC's" as Juany said. This refers to the basics of the system. The beginning student is learning the position for a Tan Sau, a Bong Sau, a Punch, etc. They are learning to assume a stable structure with the stance. They are learning to use smooth relaxed motion by going slow. SNT is the "foundational" form. THIS is the common thread and one of the "little ideas" running through everyone's SNT, including WSLVT.

The claim made was of the same "conceptual thread running through the entire system" being shared between several lineages.

The rest of the system isn't ABCs in slow motion, and the basic shapes are not the thinking behind it.

What I see mostly in other lineages is as in the following video from Joy's lineage (HKM > AF >). The opening actions of the SNT form are concrete technique applications. Specific applications differ between lineages.

Never minding the impracticality of what is shown, the actions don't contain conceptual information on general fighting strategy and don't connect directly to DCS through any conceptual thread.

Instead, they introduce complete beginners to complex double arm actions like kwan-sau right at the very start of the system before even looking at the basic punch. That's an illogical progression and quite a "big idea".

 

[Transk53]

Sifu Brian Tufts posts some very good stuff.

 

[Juany118]

It appears that Juany has only posted things he found on google, paraphrasing YM in his first reply to Paitingman for example.

As people have said before things like training abc's is a description of what the form consists of rather than the thinking behind it. If this is the "common thread" running through all wc then ok fine, but also fairly pointless to say given its obviousness.

No I posted words of YM. Next I explained the basics briefly. You called BS and then to basically prove my point that you were trolling posted a link to a WSLPB-VT site that corroborated what I had previously said. Then you shifted gears. If you are going to argue your point fine but try to avoid being disingenuous.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[guy b]

I posted a link to a WSLPB-VT site that corroborated what I had previously said

That link didn't corroborate what you said. You were answering Paitingman's question about the little idea of SNT here:

Can anyone from different lineages represented here shed some light on their spelling of SLT. translation of SLT. And if you translate as little idea what that little idea is or may mean AND how that is reflected in some of the technical aspects of the form?

Your answer was this, again specifically about the "little idea" of SNT and paraphrasing YM:

In TWC it is Sil Lim Tao. It does mean "little idea" or "little imagination" and that has numerous meanings. First we often do it slowly, especially the 8 set. The idea for this is to clear your mind of the outside world in a meditative way (breathing is also an important component) "switch mental gears" into training mode. Next it is also, for lack of a better term, the "alphabet" of WC, that the words and sentences are later built upon.

When asked to explain you first posted the full YM quote you previously paraphrased, then you googled some info from a branch of WSL VT here:

Let me, as an example use what the Serbian branch of PB's school says is the purpose...

"The 1st form or ‘The Little Idea’ is the foundation of the Ving Tsun system teaching the basic stance and hand positions, correct structure the development of energy and how to release it.

Here you will learn to use and control the energy of your opponent through basic self defence techniques, which are taught from this form as well as hand drills such as the Lap Sau Drill, Dan Chi Sau and Chi Sau.

It introduces the scientific theories such as human dynamics, physics, Gate and Centreline theory.

Siu Lim Tao is a form that is easy to learn but not quite so easy to play well. One must keep several things in mind in order to achieve a high caliber of Siu Lim Tao. Of course, the most important requirement is to know all the movements in the proper sequence. The movements are in themselves simple ones, but it is essential that they are performed frequently, in a relaxed manner. A relaxed mind and body is the key to perfecting them. One in fact must not play Siu Lim Tao unless one is in the mood for it; you do not force yourself to play it. Regimentation is not the way; frequent practice must arise from desire. Another vital consideration is the attitude with which Siu Nim Tao is approached, namely, trust and faith in the form. One needs to have complete confidence in the wisdom of the movements without any intention of modifying them"

The website from which you posted the link was not talking about the "little idea" of SNT. It was talking about general characteristics of the form. This has been pointed out to you several times but you are pretending you didn't see it.

Look, I know that you don't know what it means in twc, and in terms of WSL VT it isn't on the internet. There isn't any shame in this. Maybe best to wait until you can ask your instructor and then report back from the twc perspective? That would be useful for you and everyone else.

 

[Mattattack]

In Yuen family Wing Chun we call it Siu Lim Tau Kuen (Little Training Head Fist) & not Siu Nim Tau Kuen (Little Idea Fist). While having an approximate similar meaning, I don't believe it as esoteric/ambiguous as the term Siu Nim Tau. Though I would venture to say that my interpretations my be quite liberal to some.

If I'm not mistaken HFY uses both terms to different ends.

What does the "Little Idea" represent/mean to you?

I never found Siu Nim Tau to be esoteric, or at least as compared to trying to wrap one's head around the Five Elements Theory in Xingyi, for example. I know you said they were approximate in meaning, but in what ways would you say the interpretation of it as Siu Lim Tau Kuen (Little Training Head Fist) is different in Yuen family Wing Chun? I'm interested to know.

Every other form has movement. SLT is the only one that does not.

Yeah. The way my teacher explains it is that SNT/SLT teaches a good deal of the structure, and the next form--Chum Kiu, "Seeking the Bridge"--teaches one how to keep and use that structure while moving.

Yes-but there is more to it, including control

It kind of reminds me of the circular control motion in Wansu kata, used to control in different ways. Not saying they are the same, but I liken the Huen Sao in YM WC more to tight swimming motions similar to those used in Jujitsu. The HFY looks different and i'm intrigued by the possibilities with it.

 

[Eric_H]

Does that huen Sao perform a clearing action?

It's about how you transition from the inside to outside of a bridge, or stabilize on the inside as well as the technique of leet sao in addition to huen. It can be used as a clear, but that's not the intended focus in training.

In Yuen family Wing Chun we call it Siu Lim Tau Kuen (Little Training Head Fist) & not Siu Nim Tau Kuen (Little Idea Fist). While having an approximate similar meaning, I don't believe it as esoteric/ambiguous as the term Siu Nim Tau. Though I would venture to say that my interpretations my be quite liberal to some.

If I'm not mistaken HFY uses both terms to different ends.

Yes, we use Siu Nim Tao (The Little Idea) as part of the formal curriculum and Siu Lein Tao (Little drilling) as specific drilling sets around a concept.

 

[Nobody Important]

I never found Siu Nim Tau to be esoteric, or at least as compared to trying to wrap one's head around the Five Elements Theory in Xingyi, for example. I know you said they were approximate in meaning, but in what ways would you say the interpretation of it as Siu Lim Tau Kuen (Little Training Head Fist) is different in Yuen family Wing Chun? I'm interested to know

The terms themselves.

Siu Nim Tau (Little Imagination/Idea) - It leads one to contemplate "what is the idea" or to "use imagination". It is philosophical.

Siu Lim Tau (Little Training Head/First) - This term is less ambiguous IMO, it talks directly of "First/Begining Training". It is not philosophical.

This is my view on it anyway. If I we're to approach the term Siu Lim Tau philosophically, I would approximate training ideas. But the concept of "imagination/idea" is already imbedded in the art, in all Yuen family forms, no need to single out one form.

In Yuen family we treat all forms as one symbiotic entity, not separate pieces. Our legends state that originally the art was San Sik, then one form, then broken up. We still retain a lot of San Sik and often perform the 3 fist sets as one. In Yuen family the forms are treated as different approaches to the same idea and not as separate concepts. That to us is the "Little Imagination/Idea".

 

[Eric_H]

Fair question. I'll try to clarify.

In the wing chun I practice, the elbows are generally kept inside an imaginary framework in front of the body. One of the many reasons for this is to protect the inside path to the center of my body.

For example, someone grabs the inside of my right arm and pulls away from me and to my right. My only concern with his left hand (the one that's grabbing) is that it will suddenly release and slug me in the face.
If I let him pull my arm way to the right of my center I will have a hard time stopping that punch, if its fast and powerful. But through training SLT, my right elbow will stay near my center in fuk-sau even if my torso is forced to rotate to the right. Now simply by making a small rotation of the body back to the left, the incoming punch will be deflected by my fuk.

Just an example, of course, but I wanted to illustrate what I meant by protecting the center with disciplined elbow positioning.

I'm 100% sure, I'm not following your description accurately, but if you're talking about someone opening your bridge with an inside lop and punching at your head, I can speak to that. You might notice we use a taan (high tone, different word than spread taan) which looks like a fook up high and outside the shoulder, as well as in the opening of our second section our side gum sao is wider and in front of the body as opposed to straight down and at the sides. We have a 5-lined framework for how to gauge width, and when your parts are too far out. We'll let someone take us to those borderlines, but not further. When someone punches from that inside position, we typically defeat it vertically and front-to-back (sagittally i think is the term?) while closing the gate.

It's actually one of our beginner kiu sao drills to have someone put a spreading taan outside the shoulder with the elbow pointed in, and then have someone touch that bridge and try and smack them in the face. Being able to recover that space is very important.

 

[Cephalopod]

I'm 100% sure, I'm not following your description accurately...

No, no...you got it!

When someone punches from that inside position, we typically defeat it vertically and front-to-back (sagittally i think is the term?) while closing the gate.

You mean a jut sau?

It's actually one of our beginner kiu sao drills to have someone put a spreading taan outside the shoulder with the elbow pointed in, and then have someone touch that bridge and try and smack them in the face. Being able to recover that space is very important.

If, when trying to smack the face, the attacker chooses a vector just to the side of the face that jams the punch against the bridge, does it become difficult for the recipient to recover center without guiding said punch into his face?
I just ask because that's a problem I run into if my elbow gets opened (driven to the side of center) too much.

 

[Cephalopod]

It kind of reminds me of the circular control motion in Wansu kata, used to control in different ways.

Cool! This vid actually illustrates some elbow ideas that I relate to.

If a strike is not obstucted by the opponent and doesn't require full power (like the teachers throat jab) then letting the elbow leave the center is fine.

But when the arm has to deal with opposing forces, like when the teacher goes for the arm wrap, he brings his elbow to his center (his sagittal plane - thanks Eric ) and leaves it there while the rotating of his body delivers the torque he needs. Powerful.

 

[Juany118]

I never found Siu Nim Tau to be esoteric, or at least as compared to trying to wrap one's head around the Five Elements Theory in Xingyi, for example. I know you said they were approximate in meaning, but in what ways would you say the interpretation of it as Siu Lim Tau Kuen (Little Training Head Fist) is different in Yuen family Wing Chun? I'm interested to know.



Yeah. The way my teacher explains it is that SNT/SLT teaches a good deal of the structure, and the next form--Chum Kiu, "Seeking the Bridge"--teaches one how to keep and use that structure while moving.



It kind of reminds me of the circular control motion in Wansu kata, used to control in different ways. Not saying they are the same, but I liken the Huen Sao in YM WC more to tight swimming motions similar to those used in Jujitsu. The HFY looks different and i'm intrigued by the possibilities with it.

There was one thing I really liked about the video. Now my personal preference is to go into a lock (which I can then use to hyperextension joints/yes I have had to do that in real application) from a grab like that, the video does one thing that I see other people do wrong, imo. Often I see people move to clear/control such an action in the opposite direction. You should always (again just my opinion) move the opponent so that his free hand is being moved away from you, otherwise you open yourself up for the other hand to clock you one.

 

[Nobody Important]

In Yuen family Wing Chun our basic training is in the form of San Sik, 8 Techniques Separate Hitting, Continuous Capture & Strike and the 12 Separate Techniques. These San Sik are progressive and introduce concepts later reinforced by the forms.

In the 12 Separate Techniques, which is composed of 4 sections containing 3 techniques + variations, there is a section known as Blind Man Wiping the Walls. One of the techniques derived from this concept is a variation of Butterfly Palms known as Tiger Traps Bird, it is the same as the application in the video above.

 

[anerlich]

Every other form has movement. SLT is the only one that does not.

Some lineages have versions of SLT that include footwork. But the statement above is true for a significant majority.

 

[anerlich]

You should always (again just my opinion) move the opponent so that his free hand is being moved away from you, otherwise you open yourself up for the other hand to clock you one.

Move the opponent's free hand away from you ... if possible. Otherwise, move yourself away from the free hand. Or both.