Siu Lim Tau Comparison

[Juany118]

That is exactly how I see it as well. Another instance of a "challenging" type of posting. In this thread Guy has asked several pointed questions about what other people see as the main point of their SNT form without ever stating what WSLVT sees as the main point of the SNT form. Rather than saying "WSLVT views the purpose of the SNT form as ...... How do you guys see your form?" But I really don't think he realizes that he is being antagonistic. I've noted before, he really doesn't seem to have any measure of personal insight in how he comes across. I thought he was making an effort to do better before, but then he went right back to his old ways on these recent threads. I think it really is time he goes and finds a WSLVT-specific forum.

Yep, Juany. To paraphrase, Guy's saying that your WC 's SNT doesn't have a "little idea" at all. Clearly his WSL-PB-VT SNT form does. But don't hold your breath waiting for him to share. That's not how he plays the game!

What makes this one even more obvious is that WSLVT does break it down the way I was explaining it, the quote I noted comes from a WSL via PB VT website. The idea of SLT is the same for every form of WC/VT I have even passing knowledge of. Some don't go in for the "clearing the mind" and breathing bit from the YM quote I used earlier but the foundational aspect is the same.

 

[Mattattack]

It doesnt matter. If you think he is trolling then stop feeding him. You are taking the bait.

If you really are interested in a technical discussion and think he is not, ignore him and join us.

Either way, stop. No one wins

 

[Mattattack]

We don't put our elbows on the centerline if that's what you're suggesting? I'm unclear of what you are asking about.



I assume you're talking about the video with Sifu Allen Kong. You are correct, it's just a Huen Sao that closes back to center with Wu Sao.

We don't put our elbows on the centerline if that's what you're suggesting? I'm unclear of what you are asking about.



I assume you're talking about the video with Sifu Allen Kong. You are correct, it's just a Huen Sao that closes back to center with Wu Sao.

Does that huen Sao perform a clearing action?

 

[Juany118]

It doesnt matter. If you think he is trolling then stop feeding him. You are taking the bait.

If you really are interested in a technical discussion and think he is not, ignore him and join us.

Either way, stop. No one wins

I am only feeding the troll, at least from my perspective, if I do not answer him with things I can properly source. The reason I felt my last response was relevant in this context is that he uses "I study WSLVT via PB and you don't" as a rote response and yet I already had the WSLVT via PB link prepared if he went "trolly." I think it was important, at this juncture, to point to the fact his claim contradicts what his own system publishes.

 

[LFJ]

Simply because I'm not taking the bait you tend to like laying out to create a real (or imagined) "ah ha" moments doesn't mean I am not participating.

I don't see how you think it is somehow baiting to ask you to explain your own claim.

What makes this one even more obvious is that WSLVT does break it down the way I was explaining it, the quote I noted comes from a WSL via PB VT website.

Just because it's a PBVT website doesn't mean it's WSL's own words.

But regardless, that wasn't a break down at all, only a very general description.

The idea of SLT is the same for every form of WC/VT I have even passing knowledge of.

This is making that same claim again, but you are only sharing general descriptions of the form which are bound to be similar.

"Stand like this. Relax. Breathe. Go slowly. Learn the ABCs."

That doesn't really say much, does it? Unless that's all there is to it, and there are no further intricacies to be explored.

So, I'm left to believe that the opening crossed arms actions of the form as you know it don't introduce any specific information on the overall strategy of the WC you've seen/done.

And that the same little idea of these actions doesn't also directly relate for example to the last three "shaving" arm actions, or to daan-chi-sau practice and the whole rest of the system through to free-fighting.

So, there is no single conceptual thread (little idea) like this running through the entire system as you know it, starting from the very opening actions of the first form.

Is that correct?

I was interested in this claim you made of several other lineages sharing the same conceptual thread as WSLVT, because this is something I've not seen in any other lineage.

It's the bit that makes it such a coherent system, rather than just a collection of shapes and application ideas that can be put together in fighting.

 

[guy b]

The reason I felt my last response was relevant in this context is that he uses "I study WSLVT via PB and you don't" as a rote response and yet I already had the WSLVT via PB link prepared if he went "trolly." I think it was important, at this juncture, to point to the fact his claim contradicts what his own system publishes.

In this thread I am only curious to know what the "little idea" is in other types of wing chun. I rarely talk about other wing chun because I don't know how it works and so can only really ask questions.

I fully accept that not all wing chun is the same as WSL VT. Since this is the case then hard to see why it would be important to google for information from the website of a PB student, or from Yip Man? From the WSL VT point of view the part you quoted from the Serbian site is describing various general characteristics of the set, not defining the "little idea". Same with the other googled info.

What is just general description in WSL VT may however be the whole of the little idea in TWC wing chun, and if so that is ok with me. Who am I to tell you about the system that you train and which I have not trained?

I only respond to suggest that people give WSL VT a try when they are trying to tell me what it is, they are not correct, and my explanations to the contrary have failed to make any impression.In that sort of situation there isn't much more I can do.

 

[guy b]

What makes this one even more obvious is that WSLVT does break it down the way I was explaining it, the quote I noted comes from a WSL via PB VT website. The idea of SLT is the same for every form of WC/VT I have even passing knowledge of. Some don't go in for the "clearing the mind" and breathing bit from the YM quote I used earlier but the foundational aspect is the same.

The quote from the website isn't discussing the little idea

 

[guy b]

Yep, Juany. To paraphrase, Guy's saying that your WC 's SNT doesn't have a "little idea" at all. Clearly his WSL-PB-VT SNT form does. But don't hold your breath waiting for him to share. That's not how he plays the game!

A good way to learn about other wing chun is to ask questions.

I am trying to be more open to other ideas and since your wing chun probably differs from WSL VT I don't see any potential conflict here. There would be nothing for me to argue about.

 

[Nobody Important]

In Yuen family Wing Chun we call it Siu Lim Tau Kuen (Little Training Head Fist) & not Siu Nim Tau Kuen (Little Idea Fist). While having an approximate similar meaning, I don't believe it as esoteric/ambiguous as the term Siu Nim Tau. Though I would venture to say that my interpretations my be quite liberal to some.

If I'm not mistaken HFY uses both terms to different ends.

What does the "Little Idea" represent/mean to you?

 

[anerlich]

I agonise over what "SLT" means almost as much as much as I wonder why Eddie Bravo called the footlock he got on Royler Gracie "The Vaporiser", or why he called the Electric Chair the Electric Chair.

 

[KPM]

I don't see how you think it is somehow baiting to ask you to explain your own claim.



Just because it's a PBVT website doesn't mean it's WSL's own words.

But regardless, that wasn't a break down at all, only a very general description.



This is making that same claim again, but you are only sharing general descriptions of the form which are bound to be similar.

"Stand like this. Relax. Breathe. Go slowly. Learn the ABCs."

That doesn't really say much, does it? Unless that's all there is to it, and there are no further intricacies to be explored.

So, I'm left to believe that the opening crossed arms actions of the form as you know it don't introduce any specific information on the overall strategy of the WC you've seen/done.

And that the same little idea of these actions doesn't also directly relate for example to the last three "shaving" arm actions, or to daan-chi-sau practice and the whole rest of the system through to free-fighting.

So, there is no single conceptual thread (little idea) like this running through the entire system as you know it, starting from the very opening actions of the first form.

Is that correct?

I was interested in this claim you made of several other lineages sharing the same conceptual thread as WSLVT, because this is something I've not seen in any other lineage.

It's the bit that makes it such a coherent system, rather than just a collection of shapes and application ideas that can be put together in fighting.

This is a perfect example of the "gotcha" approach that Guy and LFJ are so fond of using. Don't provide info on your own system immediately. Instead ask pointed questions to draw other people out into describing their understanding so that then you can come back and say......"that doesn't really say much"....."actions of the form as you know it don't introduce any specific information"...."there is no single conceptual thread"......with the obvious implication of....."as their is in the far superior WSLVT that we practice!"

 

[LFJ]

This is a perfect example of the "gotcha" approach that Guy and LFJ are so fond of using. Don't provide info on your own system immediately. Instead ask pointed questions to draw other people out into describing their understanding so that then you can come back and say......"that doesn't really say much"....."actions of the form as you know it don't introduce any specific information"...."there is no single conceptual thread"......with the obvious implication of....."as their is in the far superior WSLVT that we practice!"

That may be your inferiority complex speaking?

There's nothing baiting, challenging, or "gotcha" about asking someone to elaborate on their own claim.

 

[KPM]

That may be your inferiority complex speaking?

There's nothing baiting, challenging, or "gotcha" about asking someone to elaborate on their own claim.

You are not paying attention. Guy strung along several pointed questions to draw out Juany about the "little idea" behind his SNT without ever volunteering to provide the "little idea" behind WSLVT's SNT. You both have done things like that repeatedly in the past. Then you come back with criticism and a comparison to WSLVT to say that the other person's Wing Chun is somehow "broken."

I've said this already, but you obviously weren't paying attention. If you are here truly in the spirit of sharing and learning about what others do the typical approach would be to write:

"In WSLVT we understand the central idea or "little idea" behind the SNT form to be.......... Do you guys have a similar understanding of SNT? Does your SNT form have central theme or idea?"

That is a friendly and non-challenging way to exchange information.

 

[guy b]

You are not paying attention. Guy strung along several pointed questions to draw out Juany about the "little idea" behind his SNT without ever volunteering to provide the "little idea" behind WSLVT's SNT. You both have done things like that repeatedly in the past. Then you come back with criticism and a comparison to WSLVT to say that the other person's Wing Chun is somehow "broken."

I've said this already, but you obviously weren't paying attention. If you are here truly in the spirit of sharing and learning about what others do the typical approach would be to write:

"In WSLVT we understand the central idea or "little idea" behind the SNT form to be.......... Do you guys have a similar understanding of SNT? Does your SNT form have central theme or idea?"

That is a friendly and non-challenging way to exchange information.

I don't see how Juany describing his own wc, which is by all accounts not the same as wsl vt, could be described as some kind of trap? I don't know how twc works and would be completely reliant on juany for any info.

 

[LFJ]

If you are here truly in the spirit of sharing and learning about what others do the typical approach would be to write:

"In WSLVT we understand the central idea or "little idea" behind the SNT form to be.......... Do you guys have a similar understanding of SNT? Does your SNT form have central theme or idea?"

This is not how the conversation started.

If Juany is unwilling to elaborate on his own claims, then he shouldn't be making them.

I've been sharing quite a bit of information on the system I train on the "good teaching clip" thread.

Once again, I seem to be one of the only people on this forum willing to give up such detailed information on what I train.

And you're still going to come at me with complaints like this?

If you are unwilling to share, fine. You can't accuse me of not sharing, though.

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ Another load of BS. Plenty of people have "given up" detailed information on their systems. I've told you already.....the regulars here have you and Guy figured out. Everyone is reluctant to engage in any kind of technical discussion with either of you because it always goes down hill very quickly with your "holier than thou" attitude. Don't you get that? Its time both of you find a WSLVT-specific forum and let the rest of us continue to muddle through with our "broken" versions of Wing Chun. You have Callen and Lobo66 here to represent WSLVT, and they do so very well. They actually have a sense of "tact" and manners and are able to play well with others. That's something you and Guy seem incapable of....except maybe for very short periods.

Sorry for the diversion Mattattack. But this kind of thing has been going on so long from these two that its time we all stop tolerating it.

 

[LFJ]

So, if you're unwilling to share, just don't reply, but also don't make claims about WSL or WSLVT then refuse to elaborate, like Juany.

You can't run others out of the forum just because you don't appreciate their point of view or posting style.

Maybe you should start your own forum and moderate it yourself. You won't have to ban me because I won't even register.

 

[Juany118]

The quote from the website isn't discussing the little idea

It describes SLT, that is what is asked here, that is what I answered. I am not playing a semantics game with you so you can have your gotcha moment.

 

[LFJ]

Juany's statement: TWC, Yip1, and Yip2 lineage systems all share the same conceptual thread as WSLVT.

Question for clarification: What thread is that? How do the opening actions of SNT relate to DCS in those lineages, for example?

Juany's response: I'm not gonna take your bait so you can have your gotcha moment.

WTF? You are the one who made the initial statement! Why is it a challenge to explain yourself?

If the actions don't relate in those lineages, that's fine. You don't have to try to explain anything further. No one's gonna getcha! Just retract the false statement then.

 

[wingchun100]

Good timing. I was thinking earlier how I wanted to find a video that shows the differences, now I don't have to look.

Quick question. DoesWing Chun have any forms that show more movement with footwork or are most of the forms stationary like this one?

Every other form has movement. SLT is the only one that does not.