Siu Lim Tau Comparison

[Juany118]

And you must have forgotten how I invited you and Juany to enter such a technical discussion... at least 4 times!... and you declined to do so each time.

You and Juany seem to have some strong cases of Amnesia.

Again, if you would like, we can start from the very beginning of the system, from the opening actions of SNT:

Juany made the claim that the TWC, Yip1, and Yip2 lineages all share the same conceptual thread that runs through WSLVT. So, let's talk about that by looking at the questions from this post:

I didn't answer my own questions first because I want to hear your honest, uninfluenced response. Not because I'm setting some sort of trap like you accused me of. Juany is the one who made this claim, so he should be able to explain it.

And I did join the other one so I am confused. Simply because I'm not taking the bait you tend to like laying out to create a real (or imagined) "ah ha" moments doesn't mean I am not participating.

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[guy b]

In TWC it is Sil Lim Tao. It does mean "little idea" or "little imagination" and that has numerous meanings. First we often do it slowly, especially the 8 set. The idea for this is to clear your mind of the outside world in a meditative way (breathing is also an important component) "switch mental gears" into training mode. Next it is also, for lack of a better term, the "alphabet" of WC, that the words and sentences are later built upon.

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Are you saying that the little idea in TWC is to enter a meditative mental state, breathe in a particular way, perform slowly, and learn the ABC of wing chun?

Is there no particular idea?

 

[Cephalopod]

... And if you translate as little idea what that little idea is or may mean AND how that is reflected in some of the technical aspects of the form?

Great question!!
I hope various practitioners from different lineages will weigh in.

One interpretation of the 'little idea' that I like is: "all energy/force comes from the center."

I try to always keep this idea in my head while being hyper-aware of the tracking of my elbow and the tension (or lack thereof) of various muscle groups while training SLT.

 

[Cephalopod]

... it is also, for lack of a better term, the "alphabet" of WC, that the words and sentences are later built upon.

I like to think of SLT as an exercise book in which I do my homework. When a structure/concept isn't working for me in chi-sau/gor-sau/sparring (maybe I get locked up or collapsed), I go back to my exercise book to study the structure/concept. I try to determine if my position or maybe my tension is errant. And then I use my exercise book to practice the corrected habit again and again. And again.

 

[wtxs]

Are you saying that the little idea in TWC is to enter a meditative mental state, breathe in a particular way, perform slowly, and learn the ABC of wing chun?

Is there no particular idea?

I really hope I'm wrong, what you ask seems like baiting for another round of keyboard face off, how about provide what the meaning SLT and relationship to the technical aspects of the form from your lineage as requested by Paitingman instead.

 

[Juany118]

Are you saying that the little idea in TWC is to enter a meditative mental state, breathe in a particular way, perform slowly, and learn the ABC of wing chun?

Is there no particular idea?

Part of the reason is to clear the mind, breathing is part of it. Sometimes you will do it slow, other times fast (though the 8 set is always a little bit slower than the rest of the form).

To quote YM

" In Sil Lim Tao [Little Idea], the ideas of daily matters, such as money, work, hate, love, etc.... decrease to as little as possible, or even none, [so that the practitioner may] concentrate only upon practicing."

The use of the term alphabet is a metaphor and not to be taken literally. This means you learn how to have the proper forward intent, structure, economy of motion, centerline etc. This is the foundation, or alphabet.

 

[guy b]

I am not interested in arguing this with anyone, just interesting to understand what others take it to mean

 

[Mattattack]

There are many ideas within the little idea form. We can express them differently and isolate them or focus on the whole and let the parts flow together

 

[guy b]

Part of the reason is to clear the mind, breathing is part of it. Sometimes you will do it slow, other times fast (though the 8 set is always a little bit slower than the rest of the form).

What is the whole of the little idea in your wing chun, ie all these parts together? Can you condense it into a short sentence?

 

[wtxs]

I am not interested in arguing this with anyone, just interesting to understand what others take it to mean

That's great and my apology, would be interested in your take on this subject.

 

[guy b]

There are many ideas within the little idea form. We can express them differently and isolate them or focus on the whole and let the parts flow together

What would you say that the main idea is?

 

[Mattattack]

In all honesty I don't think I'm far enough to be able to say what the one main idea is, if there is one. For me, and this is subjective, it depends on what I'm working on at the time: flow, relaxation, body structure, etc. I work on taking it apart and isolating segments then putting them back together as a whole

 

[Juany118]

What is the whole of the little idea in your wing chun, ie all these parts together? Can you condense it into a short sentence?

I tried that already, calling it the foundation/alphabet and using the quote from YM. My only other option is to go into detail which would be longer than a single sentence.

 

[guy b]

I tried that already, calling it the foundation/alphabet and using the quote from YM. My only other option is to go into detail which would be longer than a single sentence.

ok, so to quote your earlier post:

The use of the term alphabet is a metaphor and not to be taken literally. This means you learn how to have the proper forward intent, structure, economy of motion, centerline etc. This is the foundation, or alphabet.

That seems like quite a lot of ideas..a "big idea" maybe?

Just want to confirm that there isn't a succinct single idea that TWC focuses on, something you could summarise in a few words, and that the focus is on quite a few different things? Would be an interesting take on it.

 

[Juany118]

ok, so to quote your earlier post:



That seems like quite a lot of ideas..a "big idea" maybe?

Just want to confirm that there isn't a succinct single idea that TWC focuses on, something you could summarise in a few words, and that the focus is on quite a few different things? Would be an interesting take on it.

The size of the idea is relative. Let me, as an example use what the Serbian branch of PB's school says is the purpose...

The 1st form or ‘The Little Idea’ is the foundation of the Ving Tsun system teaching the basic stance and hand positions, correct structure the development of energy and how to release it.

Here you will learn to use and control the energy of your opponent through basic self defence techniques, which are taught from this form as well as hand drills such as the Lap Sau Drill, Dan Chi Sau and Chi Sau.

It introduces the scientific theories such as human dynamics, physics, Gate and Centreline theory.

Siu Lim Tao is a form that is easy to learn but not quite so easy to play well. One must keep several things in mind in order to achieve a high caliber of Siu Lim Tao. Of course, the most important requirement is to know all the movements in the proper sequence. The movements are in themselves simple ones, but it is essential that they are performed frequently, in a relaxed manner. A relaxed mind and body is the key to perfecting them. One in fact must not play Siu Lim Tao unless one is in the mood for it; you do not force yourself to play it. Regimentation is not the way; frequent practice must arise from desire. Another vital consideration is the attitude with which Siu Nim Tao is approached, namely, trust and faith in the form. One needs to have complete confidence in the wisdom of the movements without any intention of modifying them.

Although it is difficult for a student to judge whether Siu Lim Tao is being played properly, there are basic checks for determining if the positioning is correct. For example, there is a direct relationship between a correct tan sau and bong sau; if one hand positioning is correct and if it is changed to the other, then both hand positions will be correct. Therefore, one technique serves as a check for another. Another important check is the distance of the elbow from the body. In certain techniques such as a tan sau and fuk sau, the elbow should be a fist and one half from the body, or the technique will be (chuk kiu) short and jammed.

Siu Lim Tao

So essentially what I was saying, so basically you were looking to be argumentative again.

 

[Eric_H]

What is the thinking of protecting the center in HFY?

We don't put our elbows on the centerline if that's what you're suggesting? I'm unclear of what you are asking about.

At 1:17, when his elbow moves outward, it appears more like an outside blocking move than evading. And then the big heun sau might be his way to recover the center position?

I assume you're talking about the video with Sifu Allen Kong. You are correct, it's just a Huen Sao that closes back to center with Wu Sao.

 

[Eric_H]

FWIW, we tend to view the translation of "the little idea" to mean "focus." The ability to focus on what things mater in terms of time/space/energy and how that translates to body leverage.

 

[Cephalopod]

We don't put our elbows on the centerline if that's what you're suggesting? I'm unclear of what you are asking about.

Fair question. I'll try to clarify.

In the wing chun I practice, the elbows are generally kept inside an imaginary framework in front of the body. One of the many reasons for this is to protect the inside path to the center of my body.

For example, someone grabs the inside of my right arm and pulls away from me and to my right. My only concern with his left hand (the one that's grabbing) is that it will suddenly release and slug me in the face.
If I let him pull my arm way to the right of my center I will have a hard time stopping that punch, if its fast and powerful. But through training SLT, my right elbow will stay near my center in fuk-sau even if my torso is forced to rotate to the right. Now simply by making a small rotation of the body back to the left, the incoming punch will be deflected by my fuk.

Just an example, of course, but I wanted to illustrate what I meant by protecting the center with disciplined elbow positioning.

 

[geezer]

...That seems like quite a lot of ideas..a "big idea" maybe?

Just want to confirm that there isn't a succinct single idea that TWC focuses on, something you could summarise in a few words, and that the focus is on quite a few different things? Would be an interesting take on it.

Yep, Juany. To paraphrase, Guy's saying that your WC 's SNT doesn't have a "little idea" at all. Clearly his WSL-PB-VT SNT form does. But don't hold your breath waiting for him to share. That's not how he plays the game!

 

[KPM]

So essentially what I was saying, so basically you were looking to be argumentative again.

That is exactly how I see it as well. Another instance of a "challenging" type of posting. In this thread Guy has asked several pointed questions about what other people see as the main point of their SNT form without ever stating what WSLVT sees as the main point of the SNT form. Rather than saying "WSLVT views the purpose of the SNT form as ...... How do you guys see your form?" But I really don't think he realizes that he is being antagonistic. I've noted before, he really doesn't seem to have any measure of personal insight in how he comes across. I thought he was making an effort to do better before, but then he went right back to his old ways on these recent threads. I think it really is time he goes and finds a WSLVT-specific forum.