Siu Lim Tau Comparison

[Juany118]

Good thought! In the SNT form of CSL Wing Chun there is something very similar. A "tight" version of the Huen Sau from the wrist and a "wider" version of the Huen Sau that comes from the elbow. Just guessing....but I would think that Robert Chu picked up the "tight" version from his studies of Ip Man and Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun and the "wide" version from his studies of TWC. He saw value in both and so he does both.

TWC actually has both a tight and a wide one as well. In short it is important to see it simply as circling hand. If your opponent is unarmed you are "tight", not loosing contact. If armed however, especially with a knife, that will get you cut. I didn't actually know the history of Chu your briefly hit on there that involved TWC otherwise I would have gone straight there.

 

[Cephalopod]

...perhaps the issue is to address issues the "tight" nature of YM WC can have issues with?

Um...I had issues parsing this.

...perhaps it is trying to "program" the idea that there will be times that a WC practitioner has to address someone who is armed with a weapon of some sort which naturally requires a "wider" motion to avoid getting clipped?

Interesting thought!
I know what you mean about avoiding slashes to the insides of the arms. We try to achieve this by pivoting and using gan sau ideas to lift the elbow and upper arm away from the blade. Inasmuch as possible, the elbows stay within a forward framework. I'd still rather take the blade to the arm than to the gut.

At 1:17, when his elbow moves outward, it appears more like an outside blocking move than evading. And then the big heun sau might be his way to recover the center position?

I guess we really need a HFY practitioner to weigh in at this point.

 

[Transk53]

The only people who make YM out to be perfect are those who view him as an idealized fantasy figure who could never have felt some students not worth his time or not cared to insure information was distributed evenly.

The answer to your question is that the facts don't warrant such a belief.

We can get a pretty good idea of YM's temperament and teaching style from multiple student testimonies.

We can then look at the histories of various YM students, their time spent with YM, and their fighting experience or lack thereof.

Then we can analyze their teachings for system coherence and functionality, compare similarities and differences, and reference this all back to the above data points concerning experience.

Doing this, it becomes quite clear why some lineage systems are the way they are.

The "taught to the strengths of each student" theory relies on assumption and Wishful Thinking.

When we get deep into technical analysis, this is where people tend to reach dead ends and exit the discussion.

Not really. Everybody has different strengths and weaknesses, although perhaps similar. We would all be robots otherwise. Or just plain ignorant.

 

[Transk53]

This is my thing. When a general exchange of ideas, spit balling for lack of a better term begins, coming in with a "this is right that is wrong" with no further reasoning than "because <person X> said so.." inevitably creates a derail. Now people can agree to disagree but it needs to be based on clearly articulated reasons. As an example @KPM and I disagreed on a thread regarding when does WC stop being WC. To me WC is about sticking to the foundational principles (maintaining structure, center line theory etc). That means, to me, you can have someone fighting who may not look like they are doing WC on video even if that combatant "feels" those principles in action. KPM disagreed, no worries on my part.
The moral of the story, context and delivery are as important as your personally perceived intent.

Yes I agree. Foundation structures are something that I have intimate knowledge of when having to alter structure, which is no easy thing with disabilities. Well it is, and it isn't. Principles are fine, but they always shift. Doesn't mean to say that they are that much different. Perceived intent though, which is ruled by doctrine, can be a sticky wicket. Both of you though, have valued input, the odd differeng view is not a problem

 

[KPM]

LFJ is correct KPM. For "you" as a group it is always about the grievance, the taking of offence. It creates these interminable threads that lead nowhere. Instead of complaining about the use of language, maybe try to engage in technical discussion. Then maybe we will get somewhere mutually beneficial?

You must have forgotten how I invited you to start a technical discussion detailing the differences you see in WSLVT and all other VT, all in one place to trigger good discussion....at least 3 times!.... and you declined to do so each time. For "you", you cannot seem to figure out how to post in a tactful manner that is not offensive to the majority of people reading along. The post I quoted above is a perfect example of that.

 

[guy b]

You must have forgotten how I invited you to start a technical discussion detailing the differences you see in WSLVT and all other VT, all in one place to trigger good discussion....at least 3 times!.... and you declined to do so each time. For "you", you cannot seem to figure out how to post in a tactful manner that is not offensive to the majority of people reading along. The post I quoted above is a perfect example of that.

You can have a technical discussion any time and on any thread. All that it requires is people willing to participate. It doesn't require great fanfare and a special thread of its own. If you would like to discuss something then just ask.

 

[guy b]

Here is a thread that might become a technical discussion if either Joy or Danny respond to elaborate about what they mean. Feel free to add your own critiques, perspectives, comments or anything else. I would love to discuss VT rather than respond to the usual forum antics of people like Transk or Drop Bear who are trolling and don't have the faintest clue about VT.

link

 

[Transk53]

Here is a thread that might become a technical discussion if either Joy or Danny respond to elaborate about what they mean. Feel free to add your own critiques, perspectives, comments or anything else. I would love to discuss VT rather than respond to the usual forum antics of people like Transk or Drop Bear who are trolling and don't have the faintest clue about VT.

link

Never said I did. For the record, myself and bear are not trolling, just pointing out obvious flaws in you're in posting. At least I am, not presuming to speak for bear here. But yet again, the post above just highlights how you spit you're dummy out when others do not subscribe to the universe of Guy B. A little sad really

 

[Mattattack]

Sigh

 

[Juany118]

Sigh

It's like a ship in a hurricane, get the ship righted and then a rogue wave hits amidships.

 

[LFJ]

You must have forgotten how I invited you to start a technical discussion detailing the differences you see in WSLVT and all other VT, all in one place to trigger good discussion....at least 3 times!.... and you declined to do so each time.

And you must have forgotten how I invited you and Juany to enter such a technical discussion... at least 4 times!... and you declined to do so each time.

You and Juany seem to have some strong cases of Amnesia.

Again, if you would like, we can start from the very beginning of the system, from the opening actions of SNT:

Juany made the claim that the TWC, Yip1, and Yip2 lineages all share the same conceptual thread that runs through WSLVT. So, let's talk about that by looking at the questions from this post:

I didn't answer my own questions first because I want to hear your honest, uninfluenced response. Not because I'm setting some sort of trap like you accused me of. Juany is the one who made this claim, so he should be able to explain it.

And what thread is that?

For example, how does the crossing arm action at the opening of the forms inform these lineages of the overall fighting strategy or relate to say, daan-chi-sau? How about the three "shaving" hand actions before the punches at the end of SNT?

In these lineages, and others, these actions are given various possible applications, rather than containing information on general strategy and tactics. If they have the same thread, you should be able to explain what this information is that ties them all together in sequence.

 

[KPM]

And you must have forgotten how I invited you and Juany to enter such a technical discussion... at least 4 times!... and you declined to do so each time.

.

You threw out a challenge. You said...."what is your understanding of XX from WSLVT" without ever providing your own viewpoint. This was clearly a challenge so you could come back and say "oh, obviously you don't understand WSLVT at all!" Hardly the same thing as inviting someone to engage in a polite technical discussion.

What you and Guy don't seem to get ...... is that people that are regulars here are now very reluctant to try and engage in any kind of technical discussion with you two because they know from experience that it will go down hill quickly due to your attitude.

So why don't you two move along to a WSLVT-specific forum, since that is all you are really interested in?

Now, as Mattattack has suggested....can we get back to some real discussion in line with the OP?

 

[LFJ]

You threw out a challenge. You said...."what is your understanding of XX from WSLVT" without ever providing your own viewpoint. This was clearly a challenge so you could come back and say "oh, obviously you don't understand WSLVT at all!" Hardly the same thing as inviting someone to engage in a polite technical discussion.

Wrong. Juany said TWC, Yip1, and Yip2 share the same conceptual thread as WSLVT. Explaining this for us should not be challenging.

I'm not asking for someone who doesn't know WSLVT to explain WSLVT to me.

He can explain the thread from the point of view of TWC, Yip1, and Yip2 lineages so we can compare.

If you both want to dodge, that's fine, but don't come back and say you want technical discussions and we won't engage.

Now, as Mattattack has suggested....can we get back to some real discussion in line with the OP?

My questions are also about SNT.

 

[guy b]

why don't you two move along to a WSLVT-specific forum

Forum posts have been very useful in helping me to correct some errors over the years, and it would be nice to return the favour if possible.

 

[guy b]

What you and Guy don't seem to get ...... is that people that are regulars here are now very reluctant to try and engage in any kind of technical discussion with you two because they know from experience that it will go down hill quickly due to your attitude.

If you are reluctant to engage then just don't engage.

There is a good technical discussion on the teaching clip thread right now if you would like to join in.

 

[Mattattack]

Then please join. Everyone. These histrionics are boring and off-putting.

I train Yip Man style Wing Chun, which looks very pared down compared to the other two examples in the video. I am interested to learn about how the movements in the other two styles presented approach Wing Chun principles.

 

[Mattattack]

TWC actually has both a tight and a wide one as well. In short it is important to see it simply as circling hand. If your opponent is unarmed you are "tight", not loosing contact. If armed however, especially with a knife, that will get you cut.

I alternate between liking and struggling with how "tight" YM WC feels at times (please note I said feels and not is, purely subjective). This is pretty intriguing: dealing with hands? Stay tight. Dealing with a weapon? Wider control is necessary?

I know what you mean about avoiding slashes to the insides of the arms. We try to achieve this by pivoting and using gan sau ideas to lift the elbow and upper arm away from the blade. Inasmuch as possible, the elbows stay within a forward framework. I'd still rather take the blade to the arm than to the gut.

I get that! I've read something similar about Xingyiquan: the hands stay in front to protect the core while pressing forward.

It's like a ship in a hurricane, get the ship righted and then a rogue wave hits amidships.

Let's hope another 20,000-Leagues-Under-the-Sea-esque monster doesn't grip the ship again

 

[Juany118]

I alternate between liking and struggling with how "tight" YM WC feels at times (please note I said feels and not is, purely subjective). This is pretty intriguing: dealing with hands? Stay tight. Dealing with a weapon? Wider control is necessary?

On the last question yes. A knife obviously adds reach but it also allows for more angles of attack. You can simply pivot the wrist and a knife that was thrusting is now pointed up or down and slashing. Because of this it is pretty important to widen foot work and when attempting to take control of the knife wielding limb avoid the radius the knife can pivot through.



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[paitingman]

Can anyone from different lineages represented here shed some light on their spelling of SLT. translation of SLT. And if you translate as little idea what that little idea is or may mean AND how that is reflected in some of the technical aspects of the form?


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[Juany118]

Can anyone from different lineages represented here shed some light on their spelling of SLT. translation of SLT. And if you translate as little idea what that little idea is or may mean AND how that is reflected in some of the technical aspects of the form?


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In TWC it is Sil Lim Tao. It does mean "little idea" or "little imagination" and that has numerous meanings. First we often do it slowly, especially the 8 set. The idea for this is to clear your mind of the outside world in a meditative way (breathing is also an important component) "switch mental gears" into training mode. Next it is also, for lack of a better term, the "alphabet" of WC, that the words and sentences are later built upon.

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