Siu Lim Tau Comparison

[Transk53]

Yeah. Yesterday during certain parts of the seminar I attended Master Keith kept talking about Dogma. He said (in short) don't fall into dogma but also don't replace what you already know with "theory". If you come up with an idea tell him. It actually happened a couple times during the seminar. He basically either said "oh yeah that works too" because he knows it does, it just isn't his preference. No one came up with ideas that were just "theory" but he made it clear he was open to people coming forward and demonstrating something so that it could be determined if it was only theory but practical. This video I think explains it well. The Josh is a world champion chess player and a practicing martial artist. Go to 25:00 for the relevant bit.

Yes very interesting, especially about the false construct. Although to fully understand the context of that, I am going to watch it in full in the later morning. Tell you what though, no surprise to me that a World Chamoion chess player is a martial artist. Thanks for posting this Juany1118

 

[Transk53]

I think it is important to give a true representation of WSL VT whenever it is mentioned. It is useful to anyone interested in the system to provide info.

Okay so perhaps you would care to video yourself showing the whole community what WSLVT is all about. You're rhetoric is getting very very boring, yet you have yet to offer anything of substance. A video of PB just don't cut it. And sure PB would be horrified that you are actually not spreading any message with you're posts, just nerdism. Just my logical take Guy B!

 

[Transk53]

But that's not precisely true, is it?

We all know it takes two parties to have an argument. Sure, there are those who post some rather obstinate sounding statements...but there are also those who play along, baiting and being baited by such posters.

Here are some principles that are central to wing chun as I know it.

When faced with an unstoppable force, move your center and let the force go by.

If you succeed in bypassing said force, don't go chasing after it, keep your center facing the source.

Think about it people! If you want to maximize the benefit of these ideas, they should not only apply when fists are flying but also in how you deal with others.

To me, the 'source' in the case of a forum is the original post. Unstoppable forces are arguments that cannot be "won".

So what do you think, good people? Maybe when we post we could keep one eye on the thread topic and show our respect to the efforts of the OP by trying to stay on topic.

And doing so, we'll be practicing good posting WC/VT/WT

Yes agree with you, and yes I am no Wing Chun expert, but all I see is Guy B constantly trying to debase any other members viewpoints. What his motive is I don't know, but it is getting to the point that even I feel compelled to be a Troll hunter. I don't have the Wing Chun knowledge base to do that per se, but still, there comes a point when condescending behaviour from a minor, just gets too much!

 

[Cephalopod]

... there comes a point when condescending behaviour from a minor, just gets too much!

Really?
C'mon, let's try a little harder!

The high road is awesome. Nice view. Lots of sun. The air smells sweet and fresh.

 

[Transk53]

Really?
C'mon, let's try a little harder!

The high road is awesome. Nice view. Lots of sun. The air smells sweet and fresh.

Yes it certainly is, fresh air, fresh ideas to learn and evolve. Yes it is all good. Personally I prefer a good old English woodland. Lots of history intertwined with the here and now

 

[KPM]

I would like to see the post get back on track. Are there any other non- Yip Man lineages besides myself & KPM? I would like to see how other lesser known branches approach Wing Chun. Especially comparisons of form and what the differences mean to them.

Hung Fa Yi, Pao Fa Lien, Chi Sim, Cho Gar etc? Feel free to weigh in with what you believe sets you apart.

Ok, back to the OP....Siu Lim Tao comparison..... In Pin Sun Wing Chun one of our short sets is still called "Siu Lim Tao." Most everyone would recognize it. It is the Pak Sau to Tan/Tun Sau to vertical palm strike, then repeat with the other hand. Cycle through as many times as desired. It is practiced the exact same way on the dummy. The initial 2 man practice is simply to put it into the Pak Da drill....one person doing continuous punches while the other does repeated Pak Sau...then add Pak to Tan/Tun alternating hands. But then there is also a 2 man drill specifically for this set. The partner throws palm edge strikes towards the throat and the Pak to Tan/Tun motion is done on the inside. Later the same set is done with the Butterfly knives......Pak to Tun to snap cut down the middle. From the Tun the blade rolls to the outside and then forward to the cut. So in addition to teaching two basic defensive motions just like the empty hand set, it teaches the rolling action on the outside that is so important to fast and powerful close-range strikes with the blades.

Really though, the whole first level of training in Pin Sun is considered the equivalent of most people's Siu Nim Tao form. This material is said to be what Leung Jan retained from his original SNT form when he broke it down into San Siks to make it easier to absorb quickly. There is also a short set that is essentially the Bong to Tan to palm edge strike that others are familiar with from their SNT form. It also has a dummy version, 2 man training, and a version with the Butterfly knives.

 

[Transk53]

I think it is important to give a true representation of WSL VT whenever it is mentioned. It is useful to anyone interested in the system to provide info.

Yes, but you are yet to do this. Perhaps create a thread?

 

[Juany118]

Here's a starting point



I noticed this as well in the HFY form. Notably, the elbows travel quite far from the centerline of the body.

In most WC/VT/WT that I'm familiar with, SLT is used to ingrain a very disciplined tracking of the elbow, keeping it inside of a certain imaginary framework in front of the body. This is done to protect the center of the body as well as for power development.

What is the thinking of protecting the center in HFY?

I wonder if the reason is this. As I understand it YM refined and simplified WC. So perhaps the issue is to address issues the "tight" nature of YM WC can have issues with? As an example, in an older thread a person was talking about issues they were having dealing with knife defense (in training.) A few of us who also study FMA gave some suggestions that "widened" this a bit via description and video examples. They weren't alien to WC, such as same angles of foot work, only widened a bit to address the fact a knife was involved. The same could be said for arm movements. The SLT of the HFY is clearly more complicated. In that particular bit of the SLT that you are referencing it seems to be related to the huen sau. So, while I do not know that particular style of WC, perhaps it is trying to "program" the idea that there will be times that a WC practitioner has to address someone who is armed with a weapon of some sort which naturally requires a "wider" motion to avoid getting clipped?

Just a thought.

 

[Juany118]

Yes it certainly is, fresh air, fresh ideas to learn and evolve. Yes it is all good. Personally I prefer a good old English woodland. Lots of history intertwined with the here and now

This kinda makes me laugh, in an un-martial art related moment. Among my many hobbies is Tudor, Elizabethan and Cavalier era costuming and I literally just put most of my garb and weapons away for the season has ended unless the wife and I make a trip out west (meaning from the East coast to the South West) this winter to visit family and friends. Might even drop into the school of @geezer to bother him since it is near there lol.

 

[Juany118]

Yes, but you are yet to do this. Perhaps create a thread?

This is my thing. When a general exchange of ideas, spit balling for lack of a better term begins, coming in with a "this is right that is wrong" with no further reasoning than "because <person X> said so.." inevitably creates a derail. Now people can agree to disagree but it needs to be based on clearly articulated reasons. As an example @KPM and I disagreed on a thread regarding when does WC stop being WC. To me WC is about sticking to the foundational principles (maintaining structure, center line theory etc). That means, to me, you can have someone fighting who may not look like they are doing WC on video even if that combatant "feels" those principles in action. KPM disagreed, no worries on my part.
The moral of the story, context and delivery are as important as your personally perceived intent.

 

[anerlich]

Hey!
I have a very particular question about the vid, especially for anyone familiar with HFY:

At 3:23 the HFY guy (in the center) forms a bong sau and then lifts it straight up into, well, a high bong sau.

A lifting movement with the elbow pronated like this would just annihilate my shoulder if it was against any kind of resistance.

Any idea what is being trained?

I don't know the application of this movement, not being an HFY practitioner, but I have suffered two separated A/C joints.

One was a surfing accident, the other resulting from a beautifully performed spider guard sweep which landed me at high speed right on the point of my shoulder.

I've been working high bon saos for 27 years, both before and after both injuries. With no adverse effects whatsoever.

There's a wrestling position called the inverted collar tie which I use extensively in Jiu Jitsu guard retention that basically takes a substantial proportion of your opponent's weight on the arm in a similar position. Been using it for years with two formerly jacked shoulders with great success and zero shoulder damage.

A lot of people tell me that my lineage's version of YGKYM is dangerous and will lead to severe knee problems. Again I had a meniscus op due to a grappling injury and my other medial knee ligament had a level 2 tear from tumbling on a beach, but I've had no knee issues from WC and none of my training buds have either.

In my experience, WC instructors statements about anatomy and proper structure from a purely mechanical point of view suffer significantly from the Dunning-Kreuger effect.

 

[anerlich]

Josh Waitzkin was a world Taiji push hands champion and is a BJJ black belt under Marcelo Garcia.

I think he is fortunate, or perhaps sensible, to have given Wing Chun a wide berth and avoiding the related Sargasso Sea of pointless arguments.

 

[KPM]

I wonder if the reason is this. As I understand it YM refined and simplified WC. So perhaps the issue is to address issues the "tight" nature of YM WC can have issues with? As an example, in an older thread a person was talking about issues they were having dealing with knife defense (in training.) A few of us who also study FMA gave some suggestions that "widened" this a bit via description and video examples. They weren't alien to WC, such as same angles of foot work, only widened a bit to address the fact a knife was involved. The same could be said for arm movements. The SLT of the HFY is clearly more complicated. In that particular bit of the SLT that you are referencing it seems to be related to the huen sau. So, while I do not know that particular style of WC, perhaps it is trying to "program" the idea that there will be times that a WC practitioner has to address someone who is armed with a weapon of some sort which naturally requires a "wider" motion to avoid getting clipped?

Just a thought.

Good thought! In the SNT form of CSL Wing Chun there is something very similar. A "tight" version of the Huen Sau from the wrist and a "wider" version of the Huen Sau that comes from the elbow. Just guessing....but I would think that Robert Chu picked up the "tight" version from his studies of Ip Man and Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun and the "wide" version from his studies of TWC. He saw value in both and so he does both.

 

[LFJ]

The only point I really want to make here is that I fear that we deny YM his humanity when we buy into the idea that he taught a perfect system perfectly and that deviating from that is extreme heresy. Why is it such a problem to believe that he taught different people according to their strengths?

The only people who make YM out to be perfect are those who view him as an idealized fantasy figure who could never have felt some students not worth his time or not cared to insure information was distributed evenly.

The answer to your question is that the facts don't warrant such a belief.

We can get a pretty good idea of YM's temperament and teaching style from multiple student testimonies.

We can then look at the histories of various YM students, their time spent with YM, and their fighting experience or lack thereof.

Then we can analyze their teachings for system coherence and functionality, compare similarities and differences, and reference this all back to the above data points concerning experience.

Doing this, it becomes quite clear why some lineage systems are the way they are.

The "taught to the strengths of each student" theory relies on assumption and Wishful Thinking.

When we get deep into technical analysis, this is where people tend to reach dead ends and exit the discussion.

 

[LFJ]

Whats depressing is the argument only exists because of 2 people. The rest of us actually like discussing ideas and learning from each other.

But the problem is the rest of us discuss the differences and similarities of our lineages. The only time you and another jump in to discuss WSL-VT is to say "this is right, what you guys are studying true wing chun."

Two people repeatedly jump into threads where WSL-VT hasn't even been mentioned.

Your lying seems compulsive.

I was discussing how the ideas of "Ying Bong" and "Hok Bong" could be reconciled with the "chase center, don't chase hand" principle in this thread.

I then gave KPM detail on how our bong + punch work in WSLVT when he asked for it.

I didn't even start talking about WSLVT vs other lineages until you came on lying about WSL being on record as saying something he never said in Post #193.

If you could refrain from doing this, we wouldn't have to keep correcting you.

 

[KPM]

Post #2 of this very thread, made by Guy B:

There are many large problems with the Moy Yat (Yip Man) version as performed here. The HFY looks like a completely different system not focused on the same things. TWC looks like it might be a highly corrupted form of YM- if so then hard to see how it wouldn't be broken beyond repair.

 

[LFJ]

All valid observations from the point of view of YMVT open to discussion.

You guys predictably chose to make it another lineage war, rather than enter technical discussion. Geezer may have been the only one to try.

 

[Mattattack]

I looked at another HFY SLT/SNT video and it lists the techniques used in that section. It doesn't look quite as extreme as the video in the OP.

Check it out around 4:13

 

[guy b]

All valid observations from the point of view of YMVT open to discussion.

You guys predictably chose to make it another lineage war, rather than enter technical discussion. Geezer may have been the only one to try.

LFJ is correct KPM. For "you" as a group it is always about the grievance, the taking of offence. It creates these interminable threads that lead nowhere. Instead of complaining about the use of language, maybe try to engage in technical discussion. Then maybe we will get somewhere mutually beneficial?

 

[Mattattack]

There is a technical discussion going on right now. Let's get in on that instead of trying to get in a last shot. I'm addressing that to all. So, any ideas on what looks like this high bong sao in HFY SNT?