Siu Lim Tao - Proper breathing

[LFJ]

Can anyone here (other than his twin brother Guy B.) honestly say they understand what he has been talking about as far as Saam Bai Fut training the elbow...while having nothing to do with the path the elbow travels down the elbow line?

I said nothing of the sort. Nothing in the system is done without clear reason.

---As far as evidence shows.....Ip Man also didn't teach many of the things you are attributing to WSLVT either! After all, in past threads you couldn't explain why WSL might have done these things that no other Ip Man student teaches.

Many of the things, like what?

There is plenty of evidence if you know what you're looking at.

And the explanation is perfectly clear. You just don't like it. Not my problem.

 

[KPM]

There is plenty of evidence if you know what you're looking at.

And the explanation is perfectly clear. You just don't like it. Not my problem.

---Your evidence can just as easily support the idea that WSL or PB made the changes creating the differences you are seeing compared to other people's Wing Chun. But that was a topic for another discussion and has already been done to death. No need to revisit it here. Let's stick to the topic. Although...since you have said you are unwilling to share further on the topic of how the Saam Bai Fut section relates to your fighting strategy......there really is no reason to keep on here. Unless you and Guy just want to argue.

 

[LFJ]

---Your evidence can just as easily support the idea that WSL or PB made the changes creating the differences you are seeing compared to other people's Wing Chun. But that was a topic for another discussion and has already been done to death. No need to revisit it here. Let's stick to the topic.

Well, if you're gonna bring it up, don't misrepresent the argument then try to walk away.

There is actually a ton of evidence to draw a clear picture of YM's teaching style and temperament, and the fact that many of his students didn't receive much in the way of details on what they were doing, including testimonials from various students, one of which was already shown in this thread where the student admits to coming up with his own ideas!

 

[KPM]

Well, if you're gonna bring it up, don't misrepresent the argument then try to walk away.

There is actually a ton of evidence to draw a clear picture of YM's teaching style and temperament, and the fact that many of his students didn't receive much in the way of details on what they were doing, including testimonials from various students, one of which was already shown in this thread where the student admits to coming up with his own ideas!

Ah! It looks as if you do indeed just want to argue. Ok. I'm out.

 

[Mr.J]

Hello,
how should I breath in Siu Lim Tao form? Especially when to breath in, and when to breath out?

My Sifu said it is not important, when I asked him. But I don't beleave it. That's why I am asking you here.

Based on Qi Gong, I suppose this principles:
1) When my arms goes close to my body, I should breath in.
2) When my arms goes away from my body, I should breath out.

But I can't be sure it's true for every move in the form. Also in the form, there are many moves in which you can't apply these principies, because your arms doesn't go closer or away from your body (end of the 4th set, or 6th set), so these principles will not work here.

Thanks,
Michal Mikolas
(practicing Wing-Chun for about 7 months now)

Hey i have no clue about the breathing. But i do require aide. I am teaching myself siu lim tau. And i was wondering if you could help?

 

[Mr.J]

Ha! You made a really good point. There's a reason why this form is called Siu Lim Tao/ Siu Nim Tao or Little Idea Form. You aren't supposed to think too much. The student who tries to embrace a "big idea" and learn everything at once will miss the point. The student that patiently focuses on the task at hand, the "little idea", and trains hard will, in time, gain deep understanding!

I am attempting to teach myself siu lim tau and i am curious of the liniage i am useing seeing as it is different from ip mans combination of hand movements for siu lim tau. If you could help awesome if not.... No worries.

 

[Punchy]

I am attempting to teach myself siu lim tau and i am curious of the liniage i am useing seeing as it is different from ip mans combination of hand movements for siu lim tau. If you could help awesome if not.... No worries.

Although it doesn't look like much, self teaching yourself SNT/SLT is a pretty big undertaking. There is a lot of subtlety and nuance. What lineage are you using, also, is there anyone remotely close to you that you could get with at least occasionally?

 

[Mr.J]

Although it doesn't look like much, self teaching yourself SNT/SLT is a pretty big undertaking. There is a lot of subtlety and nuance. What lineage are you using, also, is there anyone remotely close to you that you could get with at least occasionally?

I dont know the liniage sadly though it is from an app i down loaded. At this web address.

.曾氏詠春拳(Wing Chun-Siu Lim Tao) - Android Apps on Google Play

It only works for android operating systems. As for someone close im in the midland michigan area. And as far as google tells me no. If you know of someone in the area i would much like to meet them.

 

[Mr.J]

Although it doesn't look like much, self teaching yourself SNT/SLT is a pretty big undertaking. There is a lot of subtlety and nuance. What lineage are you using, also, is there anyone remotely close to you that you could get with at least occasionally?

also my primary goal is meditation with siu lim tau. And the nuances are not lost on me.

 

[Juany118]

also my primary goal is meditation with siu lim tau. And the nuances are not lost on me.

Well my Sifu says the following. First breathing is VERY important, especially in the fuk sau section. In that section you should actually be doing the breathing like Dai Tian breathing and the movements are slower than in other portions of the form (though not "Tai Chi" slow). He also suggests that doing the form at a slower almost Tai Chi pace occasionally is not a bad idea for all students. First it makes it easier for you to just your performance. Second it helps you to develop the relaxation that WC pretty much requires. Even now I have issues, though not as bad as when I started, of being obvious tense in the shoulders. This not only creates issues with performing certain actions fluidly but inevitably does something no fighter wants to do, telegraphs my actions. This however is, tbh, a personality issue with me that requires a lot of effort. My nickname when I was in the Army was "stress monster".

 

[Mr.J]

Well my Sifu says the following. First breathing is VERY important, especially in the fuk sau section. In that section you should actually be doing the breathing like Dai Tian breathing and the movements are slower than in other portions of the form (though not "Tai Chi" slow). He also suggests that doing the form at a slower almost Tai Chi pace occasionally is not a bad idea for all students. First it makes it easier for you to just your performance. Second it helps you to develop the relaxation that WC pretty much requires. Even now I have issues, though not as bad as when I started, of being obvious tense in the shoulders. This not only creates issues with performing certain actions fluidly but inevitably does something no fighter wants to do, telegraphs my actions. This however is, tbh, a personality issue with me that requires a lot of effort. My nickname when I was in the Army was "stress monster".

See that backs up the reading ive done on wing chun... The slow movement that is breathing i dont focus on so much right now as im still not done learning all the sets in sia lim tau. Almost there though. Thank you. And as for tense shoulders i did one spot a bit to quick a hinked up my shoulder a bit but it forced me to slow down and its easing up now.

 

[anerlich]

Anyone focus on strengthening the tendons in the forms ?

How do the forms strengthen the tendons? You usually need reasonably strong resistance for that. Some perform the first section of SLT isometrically, but there are better ways to strengthen tendons IMO. If you're doing the form relaxed, there ain't much strengthening of anything going on.

 

[anerlich]

Who recorded the "fact" that Yip/Ip Man spent an hour doing the first part of SLT?

Dude sat there with a watch or something observing for an hour? The joke's on him.

 

[anerlich]

Problem is that mindfulness is just a single training tool for buddhist meditation.

Other way around IMO. Mindfulness need have nothing to do with Buddhist meditation. I would say Buddhist meditation is but one possible tool to work towards mindfulness. Other religious traditions incorporated types of meditation, with no reference to Buddhism.

I've tried to do Buddhist studies once or twice and the academic, historical and religious baggage (greater and lesser vehicles, mahayana, hinayana, etc. etc.) can be just as bad as in any other millenia-long religious tradition. I couldn't be bothered studying about all the different branches and lineages and their practices and beliefs. Overdosed on that with Wing Chun.

Sam Harris ("Waking Up") and Dan Harris ("10% Happier") have meditation regimes that work just fine without any references to Buddhism or any other tradition. The Headspace and Pranayama apps aren't too shabby, either. Arguably these are way better unless you really want to be a Buddhist.

Different goals I think and I hardly think a martial artist should need to practise the type of meditation done by monks. It has to be considered what the end goal is.

No one but monks should practise the meditation regimes performed by monks. There's an article out there called "The dangers of meditation" which discusses this extensively. Most of us are what would have been called "householders" in the Shaolin days. Monks don't have worldly jobs, businesses, families, kids, or go to the gym or dojo or kwoon or whatever. Householders need different practices from monks.

Dangers of Meditation

 

[anerlich]

The thread was originally about breathing during SLT. I generally practice SLT with three to four fairly slow breaths each time my arm goes out, and the same as it comes back in, during Sam Pai Fut. You generally bave to breathe out as you strike, though one exhalation may bridge a number of rapid strikes performed close together.

I don't think I'm out of line suggesting it is possible to overthink this.

There are many breathing regimes from a variety of cultural traditions. Qigong hardly has the franchise, and maybe not even the inside track. Freedivers, big wave surfers, yogis and people like Rickson Gracie and Wim Hof have breathing practices that make TCMA guys look like dilletantes.

Even in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, breathing is studied intensively by some advanced practitioners. The Gracies and some of their advanced students have unusual breathing practices both studied alone and employed during sparring/rolling. I had the privilege of wrestling with Steve Maxwell (5th degree BJJ black belt, 63 years old) a bit over a year ago, and marvelled at the measured cadence of his "stuttering" exhalations as he calmly reeled me in and overcame every defence I put in his way as he gently ratcheted me into a choke.

The first part of the article below discusses Steve Maxwell's multifaceted approach to breath.

My MA - tall tales and true: Steve Maxwell's Jiu Jitsu for Life seminar - 14 March 2015

 

[anerlich]

"In the West, I do not think it advisable to follow Buddhism. Changing religions is not like changing professions. Excitement lessens over the years, and soon you are not excited, and then where are you? Homeless inside yourself."

– The Dalai Lama, quoted in Tibet, Tibet by Patrick French

 

[KPM]

Other way around IMO. Mindfulness need have nothing to do with Buddhist meditation. I would say Buddhist meditation is but one possible tool to work towards mindfulness. Other religious traditions incorporated types of meditation, with no reference to Buddhism.

I pointed out the exact same thing on another thread. I even provided examples, including traditional archery. The argument there was that Ip Man wasn't a Buddhist, so he couldn't possibly be doing a mindfulness meditation practice in the first part of his SNT form. But as usual, the people supporting that idea were not convinced by any evidence to the contrary. Some people are just very set in their thinking. Makes you wonder why the choose to participate in a "discussion" form at all!

 

[wtxs]

I pointed out the exact same thing on another thread. I even provided examples, including traditional archery. The argument there was that Ip Man wasn't a Buddhist, so he couldn't possibly be doing a mindfulness meditation practice in the first part of his SNT form. But as usual, the people supporting that idea were not convinced by any evidence to the contrary. Some people are just very set in their thinking. Makes you wonder why the choose to participate in a "discussion" form at all!

Did you HAVE to go there? Now I have to ask my wife to buy me more beer and popcorn.

 

[Mr.J]

I pointed out the exact same thing on another thread. I even provided examples, including traditional archery. The argument there was that Ip Man wasn't a Buddhist, so he couldn't possibly be doing a mindfulness meditation practice in the first part of his SNT form. But as usual, the people supporting that idea were not convinced by any evidence to the contrary. Some people are just very set in their thinking. Makes you wonder why the choose to participate in a "discussion" form at all!

Which is a damn Good point seeing as wing chun was created by a shaolin nun. And if i recall correctly shaolin are are also Buddhist who belive to understand violence one must study violence. To forget that i think is to miss an integral part of understanding wing chunand its applications.

 

[geezer]

The thread was originally about breathing during SLT. I generally practice SLT with three to four fairly slow breaths each time my arm goes out, and the same as it comes back in, during Sam Pai Fut.

I do the same when doing the saam pai fut moovements of SNT at a slow (but not excessively slow) pace. One slow breath (inhaling and exhaling) while going out and one returning is sufficient when moving faster leading class. Seems like common sense.

Even in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, breathing is studied intensively by some advanced practitioners.

Seemed to help Dr. Banner: