Siu Lim Tao - Proper breathing

[anerlich]

Which is a damn Good point seeing as wing chun was created by a shaolin nun. And if i recall correctly shaolin are are also Buddhist who belive to understand violence one must study violence. To forget that i think is to miss an integral part of understanding wing chunand its applications.

While the role, even existence of Ng Mui, and the role of the Shaolin Temple in WC's development are IMO contestable, I think there's little doubt that Yip/Ip Man's focus was on effective fighting. There's no evidence he had any interest in spiritual development. Nor that he was a particularly good role model in any other areas of life. He certainly was demonstrably terrible at succession planning.

None of us know what he was thinking about while doing the forms. None of us know whether the one hour SLT actually happened or is apocryphal. There's no shortage of fiction, exaggeration and self-serving in other TCMA stories.

 

[Mr.J]

While the role, even existence of Ng Mui, and the role of the Shaolin Temple in WC's development are IMO contestable, I think there's little doubt that Yip/Ip Man's focus was on effective fighting. There's no evidence he had any interest in spiritual development. Nor that he was a particularly good role model in any other areas of life. He certainly was demonstrably terrible at succession planning.

None of us know what he was thinking about while doing the forms. None of us know whether the one hour SLT actually happened or is apocryphal. There's no shortage of fiction, exaggeration and self-serving in other TCMA stories.

Who says the effective fighting style and spiritual development are mutually exclusive?

 

[anerlich]

Who says the effective fighting style and spiritual development are mutually exclusive?

Not me. Not sure how you got that out of my post.

Did Yip Man pursue both ends? No evidence of that IMO.

 

[Mr.J]

Not me. Not sure how you got that out of my post.

Did Yip Man pursue both ends? No evidence of that IMO.

You didn't i just like asking questions.

 

[geezer]

While the role, even existence of Ng Mui, and the role of the Shaolin Temple in WC's development are IMO contestable ....There's no shortage of fiction, exaggeration and self-serving in other TCMA stories.

Yes Virginia, there really is an Ng Mui. Don't listen to that evil old Anerlich, he's the Grinch of Songshan!

 

[anerlich]

You didn't i just like asking questions.

Fair enough. FWIW, I'm not a fight-effectiveness-only trainee myself. My avatar is probably a bit of a giveaway.

I am not the Grinch you are looking for . Evil and old, quite possibly.

 

[wckf92]

He certainly was demonstrably terrible at succession planning.

Now that is funny!!! hahahahaha

 

[Juany118]

While the role, even existence of Ng Mui, and the role of the Shaolin Temple in WC's development are IMO contestable, I think there's little doubt that Yip/Ip Man's focus was on effective fighting. There's no evidence he had any interest in spiritual development. Nor that he was a particularly good role model in any other areas of life. He certainly was demonstrably terrible at succession planning.

None of us know what he was thinking about while doing the forms. None of us know whether the one hour SLT actually happened or is apocryphal. There's no shortage of fiction, exaggeration and self-serving in other TCMA stories.

Regarding Ng Mui as a person yes that can be contested but I found this description to justify the fact WC was created by a female compelling..

When you look at Wing Chun’s horse (stance), Tansau, postures and concepts, they are all very strange and contradictory to male structure and thinking. Women have no obstacles between their legs, and so can comfortably press their knees inward (which is the basic stance in Wing Chun). Also, because of their proportionately wider pelvis compared to men, their femurs (thigh bones) verge naturally inward towards the knees, while men’s femurs are more perpendicularly aligned.

Women can also execute a Tansau more easily and naturally because of their inherently inward-angled upper arms. If you don’t believe me, ask your girlfriend or sister to fully stretch their arms out in front of them, with their palms touching at the baby-finger edge, and see how her forearms close the opening in the Centerline Plane. Women also have an inherently stronger and differently shaped lordosis (lower vertebrae) than males do in order to prepare them for childbirth. This gives women a stronger waist, posture and pelvis for better and stronger lower-trunk control.

As the saying goes, “Behind every great man, there is a great woman.” An old-fashioned woman is happy to appear to take the backseat, because she knows that, in reality, she’s at the forefront. It allows her to assuage a man’s ego while still retaining overall control. Men are too assertive and direct, which often gets them into trouble. Women, by contrast, are more indirect and yielding, and yet stay atop. This is the mentality required in perfecting one’s performance in Wing Chun.

I also found this analysis interesting in terms of arguing Ng Mui existed

It is interesting how in Ip Man’s story, the Abbess Ng Mui is from Henan (some say from Fujian), and Yim Wing Chun from Guangdong—both in eastern China—yet they meet 2,000 kilometers away at the Daliang Mountain in Southwest China, then Yim Wing Chun returns all the way back to Guangdong where she and her husband develop the art further. A generation or two later, the art had found its way to Foshan, where Dr. Leung Jan, Chan Wah Shun, and Ip Man lived.

I say “interesting” because Wing Chun is considered a southeastern Chinese martial art. If this were a made-up story, why make it so elaborate as to take Yim Wing Chun from Southeast China to Southwest China and then return her back to Southeast, when the story could have easily placed her in Southeast China to develop the art like other Chinese arts such as Hong Gar, Choy Layfat, Fujian White Crane, and Southern Shaolin? I believe that there is great significance in this travel story. The most obvious one being that Abbess Ng Mui, Yim Wing Chun, and Yim Wing Chun’s father were attempting to escape from the Manchurian soldiers.

Where better to hide than 2,000 kilometers away from home? Remember, in those days there were no planes, trains or automobiles. It would have taken the Manchurian soldiers no less than four hundred days on foot and a hundred days on horse to travel across the country. It wouldn’t have been logistically worthwhile for the Manchurian government to dispatch a small army across the country to hunt for just one or two criminals. In addition, the Daliang Mountain is situated at the border of Sichuan and Yunnan provinces in Southwest China. Yunnan particularly would have been a good hideout for Ng Mui and Wing Chun. Yunnan translates to “South of the Clouds” and it always was, and still is, considered a faraway, remote and inaccessible province in China. Until recently, the only means of traveling its narrow mountainous roads and torrential rivers was by mule, yak, sheep-skin floats, and rope-glides.

The above is from Sifu Danny Xuan's "The Tao of Wing Chun". He doesn't teach my Lineage of WC but the book is a good read imo.

 

[Juany118]

"In the West, I do not think it advisable to follow Buddhism. Changing religions is not like changing professions. Excitement lessens over the years, and soon you are not excited, and then where are you? Homeless inside yourself."

– The Dalai Lama, quoted in Tibet, Tibet by Patrick French

I would just like to point out that he is speaking about Tibetan Buddhism, there are others out there that have fewer "complications" in terms of being integrated into the western psyche. That said here is the Dali Lama speaking more comprehensively on the issue.

Dalai Lama Answers Questions on Various Topics

Note I don't follow Tibetan Buddhism myself but there are types of Zen that are fairly compatible as they often do away with the sutras and the like of other sects which can cause inner conflicts that can lead to the additional pitfalls that converting to faith born of a different culture can lead to.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[Juany118]

Other way around IMO. Mindfulness need have nothing to do with Buddhist meditation. I would say Buddhist meditation is but one possible tool to work towards mindfulness. Other religious traditions incorporated types of meditation, with no reference to Buddhism.

I've tried to do Buddhist studies once or twice and the academic, historical and religious baggage (greater and lesser vehicles, mahayana, hinayana, etc. etc.) can be just as bad as in any other millenia-long religious tradition. I couldn't be bothered studying about all the different branches and lineages and their practices and beliefs. Overdosed on that with Wing Chun.

Sam Harris ("Waking Up") and Dan Harris ("10% Happier") have meditation regimes that work just fine without any references to Buddhism or any other tradition. The Headspace and Pranayama apps aren't too shabby, either. Arguably these are way better unless you really want to be a Buddhist.



No one but monks should practise the meditation regimes performed by monks. There's an article out there called "The dangers of meditation" which discusses this extensively. Most of us are what would have been called "householders" in the Shaolin days. Monks don't have worldly jobs, businesses, families, kids, or go to the gym or dojo or kwoon or whatever. Householders need different practices from monks.

Dangers of Meditation

And just one last thing. Look at what the article says though. The dangers?

Well first they are subjective. Is the meditation the problem for the young lady who left the job or is it the boss because her meditation allowed her to see that it was the boss who was toxic and it gave her the strength to walk away?

He speaks of the gurus who are leading what amount to cults apparently. Yes those are bad. He also speaks of things like Yoga that when done improperly can result in injury. Well it seems here that it's not the meditation that is the problem in either case but the teacher of the method of meditation.

Now this isn't to say meditation is not without dangers. Many people don't want to look in the mirror honestly. Meditation is all about doing this and some people may not like what they see and instead of accepting what they see and/or making changes (change isn't always necessary but acceptance is) they can become depressed, perhaps clinically. Also, like anything that requires effort and supplies a benefit, people can become obsessed with it.

That all said we have to remember the guy who wrote that article is trying to sell HIS form of meditation. /Shrug

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[anerlich]

Hmmm ... whoever claimed the obstacle between his legs was so bulky as to make the WC stance difficult for him was probably conducting some false advertising.

Wouldn't a wider pelvis make it more, rather than less, difficult to clamp the knees together? This could be easily verified, but then women also tend to be more mobile and flexible than men, which might even it out. Not all WC styles have a pronounced knee clamp, but that might only have happened once men got a hold of it.

Other styles require the elbow in stuff. Dragon prawn boxing is one example. You round your back and bring your elbows in so as to make like a prawn, protecting the soft parts of the torso.

I'm no anatomy expert, but while women are designed for childbirth, men are better designed for lifting and supporting heavy objects, much of which involves the musculature around the waist, pelvis/glutes, and lower body.

Interesting thoughts, but it sounds to me like he's searching for premises to fit the conclusions he wants, rather than the other way round.

 

[anerlich]

I would just like to point out that he is speaking about Tibetan Buddhism, there are others out there that have fewer "complications" in terms of being integrated into the western psyche. That said here is the Dali Lama speaking more comprehensively on the issue.

Dalai Lama Answers Questions on Various Topics

It's debatable whether he is talking about Tibetan Buddhism only in that discussion. He could be talking about it and Buddhism in general or switching from the general to the particular and back. He has as much right to give his opinions on all types of Buddhism, probably with more authority, as you or I.

I had a big argument with my then boss about two months after I started a simple meditation practice. Though that had been brewing for a while and I'm not sorry it happened. I found I became a bit calmer and had a little more control over my emotions. I intentionally sought only minor improvements and not drastic changes. I've had enough involvement with cult-like organisations and various types of spiritual seekers in 61 years of life and about 36 years of martial arts to understand myself and what is good and bad for me reasonably well. I'm as sure of this as I guess anyone can be.

I've seen a few, not a lot, of people make poor choices as the result of martial arts training or spiritual exploration. Some due to bad influences (including one KF instructor, though arguably he f***D his own life at least as badly as anyone else's), some solely the result of their own misadventures.

Getting off topic, unless someone can prove that Yip Man followed a particular Buddhist lineage for which he used the first part of SLT as a method of practice. And that this involved some sort of special breathing.

 

[Juany118]

Hmmm ... whoever claimed the obstacle between his legs was so bulky as to make the WC stance difficult for him was probably conducting some false advertising.

Wouldn't a wider pelvis make it more, rather than less, difficult to clamp the knees together? This could be easily verified, but then women also tend to be more mobile and flexible than men, which might even it out. Not all WC styles have a pronounced knee clamp, but that might only have happened once men got a hold of it.

Other styles require the elbow in stuff. Dragon prawn boxing is one example. You round your back and bring your elbows in so as to make like a prawn, protecting the soft parts of the torso.

I'm no anatomy expert, but while women are designed for childbirth, men are better designed for lifting and supporting heavy objects, much of which involves the musculature around the waist, pelvis/glutes, and lower body.

Interesting thoughts, but it sounds to me like he's searching for premises to fit the conclusions he wants, rather than the other way round.

It's not the wider pelvis that is important in that bit, it's the fact the wider pelvis results in an inward angle to the femur. I agree with you on the issue of styles though, I study under GM William Cheung's School of thought and we basically simply stand in a horse stance (toes aren't pointed inward either) with a forward filter pelvis but that appears to be a variation of his design. The author of the book is speaking of what YM himself taught.

The thing regarding other styles using similar techniques, you are right but at the same time, even your example is involving rounding the back in addition to bringing the arms in an exaggerated manner. WC, at least in my opinion, is more about being efficient in action and form with little such exaggeration.

As for strength, here is a good primer on the issue... Do Women Have More Lower Body Strength Than Men?

It's not that women are "stronger" than men as much as that when it comes to that portion of the body, likely due to the fact they have to be prepared to suddenly deal with all the added weight of a pregnancy, their lower body has more equal strength to a man whereas their upper body doesn't.

 

[Juany118]

It's debatable whether he is talking about Tibetan Buddhism only in that discussion. He could be talking about it and Buddhism in general or switching from the general to the particular and back. He has as much right to give his opinions on all types of Buddhism, probably with more authority, as you or I.

I had a big argument with my then boss about two months after I started a simple meditation practice. Though that had been brewing for a while and I'm not sorry it happened. I found I became a bit calmer and had a little more control over my emotions. I intentionally sought only minor improvements and not drastic changes. I've had enough involvement with cult-like organisations and various types of spiritual seekers in 61 years of life and about 36 years of martial arts to understand myself and what is good and bad for me reasonably well. I'm as sure of this as I guess anyone can be.

I've seen a few, not a lot, of people make poor choices as the result of martial arts training or spiritual exploration. Some due to bad influences (including one KF instructor, though arguably he f***D his own life at least as badly as anyone else's), some solely the result of their own misadventures.

Getting off topic, unless someone can prove that Yip Man followed a particular Buddhist lineage for which he used the first part of SLT as a method of practice. And that this involved some sort of special breathing.

Well I can only speak to my link, which is clearly referring to Tibetan Buddhism, as he names it more than once. Also I know that quote you have is all over the web but I suspect it is not being seen in its full context because my link definitely has the Dali Lama speaking regarding conversion in a much more accepting way. He is of course more of an authority.

As for the Buddhist thing I believe people may be getting a little confused. I have read elsewhere how people see Taoist stuff in it and some people even get Chan Buddhism and Taoism confused. This I think comes from the fact they can't seperate elements that maybe a product of Chinese Culture and those that made be a product of those spiritual paths.

That said I have another idea to confuse things even more... Confucianism! . In 1000 AD the Neo-Confucian movement started as a way to remove the superstitions of Chan Buddhism and Taoism that had entered the movement during the Han dynasty. It still uses certain metaphysical concepts familiar to the two spiritual movements but instead of using it to achieve enlightenment or immortality it is to support the frame work of a rational ethical philosophy. The movement totally accepts the reality of our world, our individuality and our place in it. It also has its own form of meditation. Now while suppressed by the Chinese Communist Party until the age of free market reforms, it is now growing quite rapidly again. Ip Chun himself is actually one of the most vocal supporters of the importance of Confucian thought to WC. Here is an interesting read that I think goes to the heart of that point.

Does Wing Chun need a “spiritual” center? Is it Confucianism?

From that article an interesting quote, regarding Ip Chun speaking of his father...

He points out that his father was, in essence, a Confucian gentleman with a dual Confucian and western education. He was never a Buddhist (though he was certainly conversant with its core ideas) and the most Daoist thing about his life was probably his burial. However, as Chu Shong Tin and others have testified, his early students remember him as the living embodiment of Confucian values.

So we can have breathing as an important part via Confucianism. On another note it actually makes sense for a Martial art. Dai- Tian breathing is actually very good for combat. In the West it is often taught as "tactical breathing". In times of stress it helps to control heart rate, even during right or flight which in turn helps to mitigate the negative effects on cognition and perception that the fight or flight response can have on the fighter.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[anerlich]

It's not the wider pelvis that is important in that bit, it's the fact the wider pelvis results in an inward angle to the femur.

Don't see what difference that makes to the ease of getting the knees in. The angle of the femur has to be more inward to allow if the pelvis is wider from simple geometry.

I agree with you on the issue of styles though, I study under GM William Cheung's School of thought and we basically simply stand in a horse stance (toes aren't pointed inward either) with a forward filter pelvis but that appears to be a variation of his design. The author of the book is speaking of what YM himself taught.

My instructor was a student of William Cheung also. Until 1995.

The thing regarding other styles using similar techniques, you are right but at the same time, even your example is involving rounding the back in addition to bringing the arms in an exaggerated manner. WC, at least in my opinion, is more about being efficient in action and form with little such exaggeration.

I don't see that camping the knees together or forcing the elbow go to the midline - in an exaggerated manner as discussed with WC - has anything to do with efficiency of action or form either. The fingers come to the centre in my SLT, the elbow stays on a line between the shoulder and hand to keep structure strong. Pulling it in further weakens the stucture.

 

[Juany118]

Don't see what difference that makes to the ease of getting the knees in. The angle of the femur has to be more inward to allow if the pelvis is wider from simple geometry.



My instructor was a student of William Cheung also. Until 1995.



I don't see that camping the knees together or forcing the elbow go to the midline - in an exaggerated manner as discussed with WC - has anything to do with efficiency of action or form either. The fingers come to the centre in my SLT, the elbow stays on a line between the shoulder and hand to keep structure strong. Pulling it in further weakens the stucture.

On the last bit. Do the experiment of asking a female to do the thing with the hands. Interesting side note, not only does what he describe happen in terms of the visible geometry of a women's arms BUT women can naturally hyper extend their elbow further than a man. Evolutionary biologists believe that this is an adaptation to allow a mother to hold her infant for extended periods of time. Here are some photos regarding the elbow (this is from a violin site speaking to the impacts for the musicians)

As you can see, simply by looking at these photos of an extended arm at rest, the female would have to exert less energy as her arm is already naturally predisposed to such a position (any muscular exertion costs energy) to have her arm in the position discussed.

As for the angle thing with the femur, if you already have a natural tilt, that also provides stability, it is less effort, and more comfortable relative to the person who lacks that natural angle, to increase that angle, within limits of course. So again less exertion/more natural.

Can men do these things? Obviously they can. The contention however is that as these are actions that are more comfortably/naturally performed by a women due to the natural structure of her limbs, that it is logical that a women developed the techniques in the first place.

None of this of course is 100% concrete proof but it is an interesting analysis imo none the less.








Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[KPM]

It's not the wider pelvis that is important in that bit, it's the fact the wider pelvis results in an inward angle to the femur. .

Just a small interjection....yes, Juany is correct. Women have a wider pelvis, which makes the femurs angle inward more than men. This is called the "Q angle", and is the reason that women are more prone to patellofemoral problems than men.

 

[anerlich]

As for the angle thing with the femur, if you already have a natural tilt, that also provides stability, it is less effort, and more comfortable relative to the person who lacks that natural angle, to increase that angle, within limits of course. So again less exertion/more natural.

Can men do these things? Obviously they can. The contention however is that as these are actions that are more comfortably/naturally performed by a women due to the natural structure of her limbs, that it is logical that a women developed the techniques in the first place.

I doubt the larger angle would make pulling the knees in more natural or comfortable. I think it would put increased strain on the medial and perhaps other ligaments of the knee. And, come on. The word "logical" does not belong in that final sentence.

I'm still doing my three to four breaths on each inward and outward movement in Sam Pai Fut.

18 years of BJJ shows me that removing a martial art from its originating culture need not dilute it, in fact the reverse can be true. so what Yip Man or Ip Chun or Ng Mui or anyone else may or may not have done isn't really much of a concern TBH.

 

[Juany118]

I doubt the larger angle would make pulling the knees in more natural or comfortable. I think it would put increased strain on the medial and perhaps other ligaments of the knee. And, come on. The word "logical" does not belong in that final sentence.

I'm still doing my three to four breaths on each inward and outward movement in Sam Pai Fut.

18 years of BJJ shows me that removing a martial art from its originating culture need not dilute it, in fact the reverse can be true. so what Yip Man or Ip Chun or Ng Mui or anyone else may or may not have done isn't really much of a concern TBH.

It's a matter of overall body mechanics. Picture it this way...

The femur barely has to increase it's angle and largely stays at the same as the female would standing, the only point of flexion is at the knee, so the degree of stress is not different, the female simply exerts less muscular energy. The male, in that particular stance, (short form) has to exert energy by settling down, angling in the femur then angling the tibia and fibula out etc. The female has to exert less effort on step 2 but exerts the same effort as the male on steps 1 and 3. If anything the male is in a worse off position in terms of stress. Stress at a joint comes at both sides of the point of flexion, on a female the top portion, where the femur meets the knee has to move in noticeably less on a female so there is less stress.

 

[KPM]

Just another small interjection...... My Tang Yik Weng Chun Sifu in HK explains some of the differences between Wing Chun and Weng Chun (Weng Chun doesn't have the pigeon-toed YGKYM or pull the elbows into the center) by saying that Wing Chun was developed by a woman, and she was obviously concerned about protecting her "female parts" when confronted by larger men. Hence knees and elbows in. If course, he wasn't there when Wing Chun was developed either! So its all just speculation! ;-)