Siu Lim Tao - Proper breathing

[guy b.]

I learned this basic aspect of the SNT form when I first started learning Wing Chun 30 years ago. I didn't make it up.

If your SNT contains westernised teachings deriving from the noble eightfold path then probably somebody else added it on in the usual gap filling way some time after 1979. If your system incorporates actual buddhism then that's very interesting, but not particularly relevant to the VT system of Yip Man which does not contain such teachings

 

[KPM]

The 1980s was when the practice was excised from buddhism and branded as "mindfulness" in western psychology/psychobabble

It existed long before that! But please keep posting and showing how clueless you really are!

 

[guy b.]

It existed long before that! But please keep posting and showing how clueless you really are!

Educate me then

 

[dudewingchun]

Why?

Well why not? there are more benefits to mindfulness then negatives ( if there are any)

 

[LFJ]

I can explain the system, but I'm not your sifu.

---If you are not willing to explain something so straight-forward to the members of this discussion forum, then why are you here?

I can discuss the system, but you seem to have no foundation with the first section of SNT.
If you want me to start an online mentorship program, I don't have time to do that for free.

---Augustine Fong.....Ho Kam Ming.....Ip Man. Again, you don't know what you're talking about if you think these basic mental training aspects aren't part of Wing Chun.

I'm not denying it's part of some people's Wing Chun. But as far as evidence shows, YM was non-religious and a skeptic, and he didn't teach Buddhist meditations as part of his VT fight training system.

 

[dudewingchun]

I can discuss the system, but you seem to have no foundation with the first section of SNT.
If you want me to start an online mentorship program, I don't have time to do that for free.



I'm not denying it's part of some people's Wing Chun. But as far as evidence shows, YM was non-religious and a skeptic, and he didn't teach Buddhist meditations as part of his VT fight training system.

Do you have a problem with Alans online program? You seem to have taken a few digs at it before.

 

[LFJ]

Not particularly. Just teasing old KPM. But I personally don't believe VT can be learned properly via video alone, much less written word. Especially if we're not on the same page with the extreme basics of the system.

 

[guy b.]

Well why not? there are more benefits to mindfulness then negatives ( if there are any)

The mental training of Buddhism is intended to produce a radical shift in perception. It is associated with many other techniqes, beliefs and protocols specific to that religious tradition.

What are the benefits of "mindfulness", and what do they have to do with VT? Why would you wish to attain part of the altered perception of Buddhism without the framework and teachings of Buddhism?

 

[dudewingchun]

Not particularly. Just teasing old KPM. But I personally don't believe VT can be learned properly via video alone, much less written word. Especially if we're not on the same page with the extreme basics of the system.

Yes I kind of agree about that. But its all good for me because I regularly travel and visit him and get corrections. It actually is really useful for me in this situation.

And for the mindfulness. Mindfulness has been studied to help people with depression effectively. Thats a benefit right there, but has nothing to do with VT. I dont really have an answer for you to be honest.

 

[guy b.]

And for the mindfulness. Mindfulness has been studied to help people with depression effectively. Thats a benefit right there, but has nothing to do with VT. I dont really have an answer for you to be honest.

Ok, so you now can't see any potential benefit to VT but think that it might help if you are depressed?

What do you think about the potential side effects (see next post).

 

[guy b.]

Here is an excerpt from a research paper about the modern midfulness movement and its relation to Buddhism:

In a chapter in an edited volume on the role of culture in depression, Gananath
Obeyesekere begins by quoting from Brown and Harris’s influential 1978 study on
the social origins of depression in women:

The immediate response to loss of an important source of positive value is likely to be
a sense of hopelessness, accompanied by a gamut of feelings, ranging from distress,
depression, and shame to anger. Feelings of hopelessness will not always be restricted
to the provoking incident—large or small. It may lead to thoughts about the hope-
lessness of one’s life in general. It is such generalization of hopelessness that we believe
forms the central core of depressive disorder. (Brown & Harris, 1978, p. 235)

To this Obeyesekere responds:
This statement sounds strange to me, a Buddhist, for if it was placed in the context of
Sri Lanka, I would say that we are not dealing with a depressive but a good Buddhist.
The Buddhist would take one further step in generalization: it is not simply the general
hopelessness of one’s own lot; that hopelessness lies in the nature of the world,
and salvation lies in understanding and overcoming that hopelessness.

One might want to quibble with Obeyesekere; one might demand more
evidence—both psychological and ethnographic—for the similarities he sees
between good Sri Lankan Buddhists and American depressives. Do Sri Lankan
Buddhists really aspire to a state that we would associate with depression? Or is the
very idea of depression so culturally and historically constructed as to mitigate its
cross-cultural utility? However one parses these issues, on purely doctrinal grounds
Obeyesekere has a point: early Buddhist sutras in general, and Theravada teachings
in particular, hold that (1) to live is to suffer, (2) the only genuine remedy to suffer-
ing is escape from samsara (the phenomenal world) altogether, and (3) escape
requires, among other things, abandoning hope that happiness in this world is
possible.

If one has any doubts, consider the advanced stages of insight described in the
Path of Purification (Visuddhimagga), an authoritative Pali compendium composed
by the 5th-century monk Buddhaghosa in Sri Lanka. After an exhaustive account
of the various practices and meditative states discussed in the scriptures,
Buddhaghosa turns to the ascending “stages of insight” that immediately precede
the attainment of liberation. The eight stages of insight include “knowledge of
dissolution,” “knowledge of appearance as terror,” and “knowledge of danger,”
and Buddhaghosa resorts to vivid similes to capture the affective tone that accom-
panies these rarefied states. One of the most harrowing is found in the description
of “knowledge of appearance as terror”:

A woman’s three sons had offended against the king, it seems. The king ordered their
heads to be cut off. She went with her sons to the place of their execution. When they
had cut off the eldest one’s head, they set about cutting off the middle one’s head.
Seeing the eldest one’s head already cut off and the middle one’s head being cut off,
she gave up hope for the youngest, thinking, “He too will fare like them.” Now, the
meditator’s seeing the cessation of past formations is like the woman’s seeing the
eldest son’s head cut off. His seeing the cessation of those present is like her seeing
the middle one’s head being cut off. His seeing the cessation of those in the future,
thinking, “Formations to be generated in the future will cease too,” is like her giving
up hope for the youngest son, thinking, “He too will fare like them.” When he sees in
this way, knowledge of appearance as terror arises in him at that stage. (Buddhaghosa,
1956/1976, Vol. 2, p. 753)

In other words, the emotional valence of this advanced stage of insight is likened to
that of a mother being forced to witness the execution of all three of her sons.
Could one imagine a more disturbing image of human anguish? Yet, according to
Theravada teachings, it is necessary to experience such despair—to confront the
unmitigated horror of sentient existence—so as to acquire the resolve necessary to
abandon the last vestiges of attachment to things of this world. Obeyesekere would
seem to have a point: states akin to what we identify as “depression” would seem to
be valorized, if only for the insight they engender, on the Buddhist path.
Yet today Buddhist insight is touted as the very antithesis of depression. Rather
than cultivating a desire to abandon the world, Buddhism is seen as a science of
happiness—a way of easing the pain of existence. Buddhist practice is reduced to
meditation, and meditation, in turn, is reduced to mindfulness, which is touted as a
therapeutic practice that leads to an emotionally fulfilling and rewarding life.
Mindfulness is promoted as a cure-all for anxiety and affective disorders including
post-traumatic stress, for alcoholism and drug dependency, for attention-deficit
disorder, for anti-social and criminal behavior, and for the commonplace debilitat-
ing stresses of modern urban life.

 

[KPM]

[I can discuss the system, but you seem to have no foundation with the first section of SNT.
If you want me to start an online mentorship program, I don't have time to do that for free.

---- Let it be known that LFJ is not here to discuss his understanding of his Wing Chun with the rest of us. He is just here to criticize others and cause problems. Can anyone here (other than his twin brother Guy B.) honestly say they understand what he has been talking about as far as Saam Bai Fut training the elbow...while having nothing to do with the path the elbow travels down the elbow line?


I'm not denying it's part of some people's Wing Chun. But as far as evidence shows, YM was non-religious and a skeptic, and he didn't teach Buddhist meditations as part of his VT fight training system.

---As far as evidence shows.....Ip Man also didn't teach many of the things you are attributing to WSLVT either! After all, in past threads you couldn't explain why WSL might have done these things that no other Ip Man student teaches.

 

[KPM]

Not particularly. Just teasing old KPM. But I personally don't believe VT can be learned properly via video alone, much less written word. Especially if we're not on the same page with the extreme basics of the system.

And you should have no problem explaining "extreme basics".....and yet.......

 

[KPM]

The mental training of Buddhism is intended to produce a radical shift in perception. It is associated with many other techniqes, beliefs and protocols specific to that religious tradition.

What are the benefits of "mindfulness", and what do they have to do with VT? Why would you wish to attain part of the altered perception of Buddhism without the framework and teachings of Buddhism?

Mr. Clueless strikes again! Yeah Guy! Just keep showing your ignorance. This is classic!

 

[KPM]

Here is just one of countless examples from Asian Culture. This is from Traditional Chinese Archery. I can assure everyone that this dates from well before the 1980's! And it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Buddhism directly. Traditional Chinese Archery influenced Japanese Kyudo, which is also considered very much a "mindfulness" practice.

 

[guy b.]

---

I think the main issue is that you demand online teaching while trolling those you seek to gain it from. You don't offer anything in return, and apparently you suffer from an extreme case of hubris. Why supply detailed information to someone that appears intent on using it against you and the system you practice? Make the discussion more even and less about point scoring and I am sure you will see more interaction from LFJ. You will from me certainly.

in past threads you couldn't explain why WSL might have done these things that no other Ip Man student teaches.

This is a misrepresentation of past discussions. There is a reason, but you don't like to hear it.

 

[KPM]

I think the main issue is that you demand online teaching while trolling those you seek to gain it from.

---No. I think anyone posting regularly in a discussion forum should be prepared to share and discuss their knowledge, or go elsewhere.


You don't offer anything in return,

---I have shared plenty of information in this forum. Including video of myself.


Why supply detailed information to someone that appears intent on using it against you and the system you practice?

---This is what you have done on multiple occasions! I simply expect that if someone is going to make a statement about the intent and importance of a specific aspect of training that they back it up with details of what they think it actually trains. What is so wrong with that?





This is a misrepresentation of past discussions. There is a reason, but you don't like to hear it.

---And the reason that was given was that Ip Man chose not to teach anyone this "good stuff" other than WSL, and all students besides WSL must have been a little dense. But we've already hashed that one out and know what you guys think about it. I don't think your explanation was acceptable to anyone outside of the WSL lineage.

 

[Phobius]

The mental training of Buddhism is intended to produce a radical shift in perception. It is associated with many other techniqes, beliefs and protocols specific to that religious tradition.

What are the benefits of "mindfulness", and what do they have to do with VT? Why would you wish to attain part of the altered perception of Buddhism without the framework and teachings of Buddhism?

How did people jump from meditative purposes to mindfulness?

Mindfulness and meditation has a lot of things in common. Problem is that mindfulness is just a single training tool for buddhist meditation. That tool was extracted, given a name and used to treat depression and stress in today's environment.

Meditation however is all about achieving an empty mind in order to achieve perfect focus. Once that focus is obtained a buddhist monk would seek enlightenment by reaching a higher level which is nothingness. But lets not go there for now.

The problem people have that are not skilled fighters is lack of focus, even some fighters have this. At some point during a fight their focus will waiver and when it does they will stop acting on what is there and instead try and control their opponent and force them to do something else. This is a moment where you are unprepared for the unexpected.

As such, for any martial art. Practise meditation to reach a clearer mind and a more focused one.

Someone like YM would know this, and it is all from it's time in buddhist temples I assume, where monks did not use martial art as a tool to fight but as a way to achieve focus and in such be closer to enlightenment. Note that this was not the only way to reach enlightenment and there were many monks focusing on other types of arts instead.

Now I am not a history teacher and there may be some flaws in this story, but as a whole the main aspect is. Focus is achieved/trained through meditation (at least real focus for longer than a few seconds or focus without adrenaline rushes). Focus is needed in martial arts in order to stay alive. YM was a martial artist.

All else is our own assumptions.

EDIT: Also western boxing does meditation, it just does not have a name. They have some exercises that they need to keep a clear mind in order to hit a bag or ball fast enough because as soon as focus is lost they might fumble. I guess however that they are not perfect exercies in terms of meditation but at least they give what is needed in terms of focus.

Different goals I think and I hardly think a martial artist should need to practise the type of meditation done by monks. It has to be considered what the end goal is.

 

[guy b.]

How did people jump from meditative purposes to mindfulness?

KPM mentioned mindfulness which is as you say a westernised Buddhist teaching separated from other Buddhist teachings

 

[KPM]

How did people jump from meditative purposes to mindfulness?

---Mindfulness training and basic meditation practice are inseparable. Basic meditation is mindfulness training.


Mindfulness and meditation has a lot of things in common. Problem is that mindfulness is just a single training tool for buddhist meditation. That tool was extracted, given a name and used to treat depression and stress in today's environment.

---It may have been "extracted" more recently by pop psychology, but it has been a part of training in Asian cultures for generations.



As such, for any martial art. Practise meditation to reach a clearer mind and a more focused one.

---Exactly! And that meditation can take the form of sitting in a cross-legged position, or standing and being mindful of slow and deliberate movements....as in the archery video I posted, as in Kyudo, as in Tai Chi, as in the Japanese Tea Ceremony, etc......all of which pre-date 1980's America by a long shot!!!


Someone like YM would know this,

---I think so too! But whether he did or not, many Wing Chun people teach that one of the purposes of the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form is to do a very basic mindfulness-type exercise.