Siu Lim Tao - Proper breathing

[geezer]

I don't know. Just because the pigeon-toed yee gee kim yeiung ma looks like something a woman could do more easily doesn't have anything to do with why we stand that way or how it originated. Stories about Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun need to be looked at as instructive parables and essentially as the creation myths of our system rather than as literal truth. Looking at the stance and arm positions and then then jumping to conclusions about the sex of the style's founders is nothing more than speculation. And pretty improbable speculation, IMO.

In the known history of WC going back at least to the time of Leung Jan in the mid 1800s, all the masters of WC were men. And virtually all recorded Chinese boxers in general were men. The female heroes and villains of wuxia novels and legends from Hua Mulan to Yim Wingchun not withstanding, the cultural norms of the times did not allow for female boxers and warriors.

 

[Juany118]

I don't know. Just because the pigeon-toed yee gee kim yeiung ma looks like something a woman could do more easily doesn't have anything to do with why we stand that way or how it originated. Stories about Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun need to be looked at as instructive parables and essentially as the creation myths of our system rather than as literal truth. Looking at the stance and arm positions and then then jumping to conclusions about the sex of the style's founders is nothing more than speculation. And pretty improbable speculation, IMO.

In the known history of WC going back at least to the time of Leung Jan in the mid 1800s, all the masters of WC were men. And virtually all recorded Chinese boxers in general were men. The female heroes and villains of wuxia novels and legends from Hua Mulan to Yim Wingchun not withstanding, the cultural norms of the times did not allow for female boxers and warriors.

That's why I don't just look at the legs it's the totality of the circumstances


-the arm positions are also consistent with the female form.
-the overall mindset, softness/relaxation to produce force and defense
-designed to deal with larger opponents.
-plus you go into the actual details of the story which I linked earlier. The names may have been changed to "protect the innocent" but most parables, even ones from Asia tend to be far simpler than the details of the WC story. So either the person who came up with it should have been a suspense novelist, or it has some truth to it, even if is just that "Nun Jane Doe" made the art.

Simply because cultural norms lead in one direction doesn't mean there are not exceptions to the rule. In 300 years what will people say of Annie Oakley?

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[anerlich]

It's a matter of overall body mechanics. Picture it this way...

The femur barely has to increase it's angle and largely stays at the same as the female would standing, the only point of flexion is at the knee, so the degree of stress is not different, the female simply exerts less muscular energy. The male, in that particular stance, (short form) has to exert energy by settling down, angling in the femur then angling the tibia and fibula out etc. The female has to exert less effort on step 2 but exerts the same effort as the male on steps 1 and 3. If anything the male is in a worse off position in terms of stress. Stress at a joint comes at both sides of the point of flexion, on a female the top portion, where the femur meets the knee has to move in noticeably less on a female so there is less stress.

Overall body mechanics? OK.

The increased Q angle for the female already makes the knee more susceptible to knee problems, as we were advised by KPM, i.e. with more stress than the male. Push the knees in further and increase the stress. Doesn't sound like much of a plan to me.

Haven't seen many untrained women standing around with their knees turned in for comfort lately myself. Things may be different in your neck of the woods.

The premise about the stance IMO is open to challenge to say the least, and the "conclusions" drawn from it, that WC therefore must have been developed by a woman or women, and therefore that Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun existed and created it, are flat out preposterous.

Would Karate's Sanchin Dachi stance also have been developed by a woman? ... I guess if you were one eyed and bloody minded enough about it, you could say Karate came from White Crane, and Ng Mui allegedly invented White Crane, along with Wing Chun, Dragon boxing, Wu Mei Pai (her own style), and five pattern Hung Kuen. Busier than the apocryphal one legged man in an a$$-kicking competition, that lady.

Film versions have her dressed in expensive clothes, plucked eyebrows, and perfect long hair and makeup. AS many written version of her story exist as there are writers. Jeez, I even wrote one myself.

My MA - tall tales and true: Bil Jee

I like flights of fancy for diversion or entertainment as much as the next guy, but I'm close to out of gas on this one.

 

[anerlich]

-the overall mindset, softness/relaxation to produce force and defense
-designed to deal with larger opponents.

Styles from Taiji to Jiu Jitsu make the identical claims.

 

[anerlich]

Anyone got anything else to say on breathing?

 

[Juany118]

Styles from Taiji to Jiu Jitsu make the identical claims.

And taking them out of the context I laid out is a problem. When evaluating oral histories you have to look at the totality of circumstances to see how much truth there is to it. It isn't just that, it is also the biomechanics and the details of the story itself, along with those two things.

Again, in terms of the story, why would you have 2 people from South East China by happenstance meet 2000 miles away, then return to the place where they were both originally from, when you can simply have them stay in the same place? There are other little details that pure myth don't go to the trouble of including.

It is the totality of the circumstances that, to my mind at least, make the story plausible. Maybe not the names and the like but the general basis that a women was involved in the development of the art.

That said, you had earlier noted that this was kinda off track, and it is. I noted that the breathing could actually be part of SLT and noted that it's origin could be Confucian in origin, even using Ip Chun as a source. I am curious to know your thoughts on the matter.

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[Nobody Important]

Apparently we don't have many farmers or individuals who grew up on a farm. Goat Clamping stance is literal. Most effective way for a single individual to control the animal for shearing. That being said, why is it the foundation stance of WC? This stance is for immobilizing.

These aren't the greatest examples but you get the idea. The stance is a means of keeping the animal under control so it doesn't get away. Goat Clamping stance is not some mystical internal way of standing. It has nothing to do with male or female anatomy. It is literal interpretation directly transferred into WC and speaking from experience, is performed in the same manner. Grew up in a farming community, had to help shear goats & sheep. Same stance used to hold them when working on their hooves.

 

[anerlich]

I read the thing about Confucianism but didn't pick up the reference to breathing. Could you elaborate?

With the goat clamping stance, it is indeed possible that the name actually refers to a specific function. I think it is more likely that the name was chosen because that stance adopted for WC looked similar to the stance used for shearing or whatever was done to the poor goats back in those times. However, that's just supposition on my part and it's not a position I'll defend until I'm blue in the face. I'll leave that sort of thing to others.

 

[anerlich]

"Ip Chun has discussed this and argued that Chi Sao should be augmented explicitly with this sort of mindfulness training. Further, Wing Chun students should, in his view, study the Confucian “Doctrine of the Mean” as well as traditional Chinese ethics. "

I'm going to pass on this. I have no great interest in Buddhism or Confucianism. Would Genghis Khan have followed "Traditional Chinese ethics"? Yes, I know he was a Mongol, but he ruled practically all of Asia and a good deal of Europe for quite a while. Ethics-wise, he made Hitler and Pol Pot look like amateurs.

If you try chi sao without some measure of awareness of the present involved, you'll be getting smacked.

As the writer of the article implies, this appears to be politics and marketing from Ip Chun.

 

[Nobody Important]

Not to derail the thread, but there are numerous techniques in CMA that are based on actual "working" movements. Fisherman Casts a Net, Sharp Knife Cuts Bamboo, Maiden Works Shuttles, Lifting a Calf, Plucking Flowers, Old Man Carries a Fish on His Back etc. Not all techniques are mysterious or metaphorical, some are simply based on the everyday movements of the working class who toiled in the rice paddies, on the farm or in the rivers, lakes & sea. Repetitive movements of lifting, pulling, dragging, hitting etc. we're naturally incorporated into their self defense methods.

 

[anerlich]

Good point, NI.

 

[Juany118]

"Ip Chun has discussed this and argued that Chi Sao should be augmented explicitly with this sort of mindfulness training. Further, Wing Chun students should, in his view, study the Confucian “Doctrine of the Mean” as well as traditional Chinese ethics. "

I'm going to pass on this. I have no great interest in Buddhism or Confucianism. Would Genghis Khan have followed "Traditional Chinese ethics"? Yes, I know he was a Mongol, but he ruled practically all of Asia and a good deal of Europe for quite a while. Ethics-wise, he made Hitler and Pol Pot look like amateurs.

If you try chi sao without some measure of awareness of the present involved, you'll be getting smacked.

As the writer of the article implies, this appears to be politics and marketing from Ip Chun.

There is a difference between Buddhist and Confucian meditation. As much as I use Zen Meditation techniques the manner/purpose of of the meditation, is definitely Confucian. Jing zuo or quiet sitting, is what Confucian meditation is called. There is a fundamental difference between Neo-Confucians and Buddhist or Daoist meditation. These are the best, brief, explanations I have seen on the matter.

"Neo-Confucians argued that quiet sitting was oriented to this world and aimed at perfecting one's self, whereas Buddhist and Daoist meditation focused on forgetting the world and abandoning one's self."

And

"Neo-Confucian scholars take quiet sitting (Jing zuo) to be only a way to help understand one's gain in self-cultivation and they do not see it as a means to isolate oneself from human affairs. They believe that it is only within this world and among worldly affairs that one can progress in the path of spiritual cultivation."

Mindfulness can be "active" as well. I understand also that such ideas aren't to everyone's taste and that's fine. The question here though appears to be, A) is there breathing/meditative qualities to SLT and B) if so from where did it come?

As for Genghis Khan, that seems like a bit of a strawman. That said, the way he acted was largely similar to other "Lords" of his day. He was only a stand out because of how successful he was.

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[anerlich]

The thread was already derailed IMO. Sometimes interesting discussions come out of that, sometimes not.

To continue down the derailed track, this sort of poetic or metaphoric naming is still alive and well in Jiu Jitsu. We have Jaws of Life, the Electric Chair, Dogfight, Powder Keg, Peruvian Necktie, Drowning Wizard, Vaporizer, Anaconda, Exhumer, Bear Trap, Night of the Living Dead, Mission Control, Crackhead Control, Truck, Twister, Banana Split, Texas Cloverleaf ... Most of these were given these names originally so coaches could yell them out to competitors, without the other side knowing WTF they were on about, but they are now part of the vocabulary.

 

[anerlich]

Wing Chun forums abound with strawmen. Perhaps true in this case. Look too far back at "traditional ethics" in most societies and you find subjugation, bloodshed, torture and executions.

I'm arguing with Ip Chun here, not you. Well, in this specific instance at least.

Breathing? Can't see any reasons from posts here to change what I currently do. Finding out definitively where anything came from wouldn't change my mind ... because it ain't going to happen.

 

[Juany118]

Wing Chun forums abound with strawmen. Perhaps true in this case. Look too far back at "traditional ethics" in most societies and you find subjugation, bloodshed, torture and executions.

I'm arguing with Ip Chun here, not you. Well, in this specific instance.

Breathing? Can't see any reasons from posts here to change what I currently do.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that you change, only that many of us, if not most, were taught that there is a proper way to breath. It makes sense in terms of combat (Google "tactical breathing") and it can have its origins in Neo-Confucian thought.

The main reason I said it was a strawman though is that the Khan comment bordered on a non-sequitur. How many Christian kings were decidedly "unChristian"? Simply because a leader doesn't practice what one may call the core principles of one of the Philosophies of his people/Nation doesn't mean that, by extension, the Philosophy had no impact. There were corrupt monks of Shaolin but clearly Buddhist thought influenced the various Shaolin martial arts. The same could be said of Taoism and Bushido as well.

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[anerlich]

Fair enough, bro. I'm done, how about a truce?

 

[Juany118]

Fair enough, bro. I'm done, how about a truce?

Works for me [emoji4]

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[KPM]

I

With the goat clamping stance, it is indeed possible that the name actually refers to a specific function. I think it is more likely that the name was chosen because that stance adopted for WC looked similar to the stance used for shearing or whatever was done to the poor goats back in those times. However, that's just supposition on my part and it's not a position I'll defend until I'm blue in the face. I'll leave that sort of thing to others.

Have you guys seen Sergio's vid where he claims "goat clamping" was a misinterpretation? If I remember the reasoning correctly.....the name for the stance was primarily passed down orally. The Cantonese word for "goat" is very close to "yeung", which is the Cantonese equivalent of "yang"....as in "yin & yang." So the real name for the stance is something like "character Gee, Yang adduction stance". The "Yang" referring to the acupuncture channels supposedly activated when standing in the stance. But somewhere along the line the meaning was lost and replaced with "goat clamping." Maybe because it was more colorful, more obvious, and more easily remembered! ;-)

 

[KPM]

"Neo-Confucian scholars take quiet sitting (Jing zuo) to be only a way to help understand one's gain in self-cultivation and they do not see it as a means to isolate oneself from human affairs. They believe that it is only within this world and among worldly affairs that one can progress in the path of spiritual cultivation."

This sounds very much like modern psychology's approach to "mindfulness meditation." It is seen as a way to lower blood pressure and reduce stress and not as a means of "spiritual cultivation" or "enlightenment." "Self-cultivation" would certainly included reducing your day to day stress so that you can think more clearly and calmly when dealing with "human affairs."

 

[KPM]

I don't think anyone was suggesting that you change, only that many of us, if not most, were taught that there is a proper way to breath. It makes sense in terms of combat (Google "tactical breathing") and it can have its origins in Neo-Confucian thought.

I think you have also made good points in support of the idea that, as a Confucian, there is the possibility that Ip Man saw doing the first part of the SLT form so slowly as a form of "mindfulness" meditation or "Jing Zuo."