Siu Lim Tao - Proper breathing

[KPM]

Have you guys seen Sergio's vid where he claims "goat clamping" was a misinterpretation? If I remember the reasoning correctly.....the name for the stance was primarily passed down orally. The Cantonese word for "goat" is very close to "yeung", which is the Cantonese equivalent of "yang"....as in "yin & yang." So the real name for the stance is something like "character Gee, Yang adduction stance". The "Yang" referring to the acupuncture channels supposedly activated when standing in the stance. But somewhere along the line the meaning was lost and replaced with "goat clamping." Maybe because it was more colorful, more obvious, and more easily remembered! ;-)

Took some digging but I found it!

 

[Juany118]

This sounds very much like modern psychology's approach to "mindfulness meditation." It is seen as a way to lower blood pressure and reduce stress and not as a means of "spiritual cultivation" or "enlightenment." "Self-cultivation" would certainly included reducing your day to day stress so that you can think more clearly and calmly when dealing with "human affairs."

Even "spiritual cultivation", in the context of that period, to modern psychology. In that age the idea of "mental health" as a Science of the mind didn't really exist. Stress, mental illness and the like were often seen as spiritually driven as they didn't have the knowledge to understand that various symptoms were products of hormones, neurotransmitters, chemical imbalances etc. instead they were "diseases of the spirit" or disrupted flows of Chi and the like.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[Buka]

I wonder if the OP is still around?

Despite derailments and everything else - this might be my favorite thread of all time. I hope it keeps going. Great reading. No kidding.

 

[Nobody Important]

Have you guys seen Sergio's vid where he claims "goat clamping" was a misinterpretation? If I remember the reasoning correctly.....the name for the stance was primarily passed down orally. The Cantonese word for "goat" is very close to "yeung", which is the Cantonese equivalent of "yang"....as in "yin & yang." So the real name for the stance is something like "character Gee, Yang adduction stance". The "Yang" referring to the acupuncture channels supposedly activated when standing in the stance. But somewhere along the line the meaning was lost and replaced with "goat clamping." Maybe because it was more colorful, more obvious, and more easily remembered! ;-)

Sounds like propaganda. How would Sergio know, did he travel back in time & witness the misinterpretation occur? It's not uncommon for this to happen when translating from one language to another, but to insist that it's common within an ethnic group is ridiculous. I think the Chinese are more than capable of understanding the nuances of their own language without foreigners insisting they are saying wrong.

These phrase goat stance is found in Hakka arts, Cantonese arts, Toisanese arts, Fujian arts, Shanghainese arts etc. All different dialects, hard to believe they all got it wrong without one passing on the "true" interpretation. If this logic were to hold true the knife position is then not correctly interpreted either. Instead of Character 2 Yin & Yang it would be something like Character 2 Shadow Goat, lol. Doesn't make sense, White Characters are generally a problem for non native speakers not aboriginal speakers. I don't know of any history of Caucasians studying WC in 1850's.

 

[Juany118]

Sounds like propaganda. How would Sergio know, did he travel back in time & witness the misinterpretation occur? It's not uncommon for this to happen when translating from one language to another, but to insist that it's common within an ethnic group is ridiculous. I think the Chinese are more than capable of understanding the nuances of their own language without foreigners insisting they are saying wrong.

I think you may be missing the point. I only say this because my ex/now best friend was born in HK and speaks Cantonese and as soon as I saw this I called her. I actually annoy her at times because in my schoole we do use some Mandarin and she says "that's not Chinese, that's Mandarin" lol.

Here is the thing. The majority of people in China at the time WC was said to be developed were illiterate. As such when you hear a term (he is correct that there can be two "tones" that sound the same and context makes the difference.) In the Guangdong Province it is a tropical/subtropical climate so farming was THE thing during this period as well. So here is the question. If you have a largely illiterate population hearing something in their tonal language that can mean something related to farming or something related to philosophy what will they think? Especially if the position itself relates to something related to farming?

Now is this definitive? No. According to Ms. Fung is it plausible? Yes.

 

[Nobody Important]

I think you may be missing the point. I only say this because my ex/now best friend was born in HK and speaks Cantonese and as soon as I saw this I called her. I actually annoy her at times because in my schoole we do use some Mandarin and she says "that's not Chinese, that's Mandarin" lol.

Here is the thing. The majority of people in China at the time WC was said to be developed were illiterate. As such when you hear a term (he is correct that there can be two "tones" that sound the same and context makes the difference.) In the Guangdong Province it is a tropical/subtropical climate so farming was THE thing during this period as well. So here is the question. If you have a largely illiterate population hearing something in their tonal language that can mean something related to farming or something related to philosophy what will they think? Especially if the position itself relates to something related to farming?

Now is this definitive? No. According to Ms. Fung is it plausible? Yes.

You're missing the point. I'm not saying it isn't plausible. But here's the litmus, no other branch or art calls it Yin Yang stance. So everyone misinterpreted it? Someone would have continued to call it by its "real" name. And in this case only occurred with Goat stance? I'm more apt to believe that it was simply named after the stance used to shear farm animals than it being based on medical theory.

 

[Juany118]

You're missing the point. I'm not saying it isn't plausible. But here's the litmus, no other branch or art calls it Yin Yang stance. So everyone misinterpreted it? Someone would have continued to call it by its "real" name. And in this case only occurred with Goat stance? I'm more apt to believe that it was simply named after the stance used to shear farm animals than it being based on medical theory.

my point was largely to say, due to the nature of Cantonese, we will never know. History is filled with myths made fact later proven to be fiction and vice versa. Gotta love the human mind

 

[Nobody Important]

my point was largely to say, due to the nature of Cantonese, we will never know. History is filled with myths made fact later proven to be fiction and vice versa. Gotta love the human mind

I can agree, but when in doubt follow principle of Occam's Razor.

 

[Juany118]

I can agree, but when in doubt follow principle of Occam's Razor.

I am familiar with that concept definitely. The problem I have is that I carry one thing home from work everyday, "It doesn't matter what I 'know', only what I can 'prove' " and if I can't prove it, it is in limbo. Yes I drive my circle of friends nuts lol.

 

[geezer]

I can agree, but when in doubt follow principle of Occam's Razor.

Personally, I prefer Bic disposables. Reasonably cheap and they last me for a couple of weeks before they get dull. Unless my wife finds them and uses them on her legs!

Now regarding that goat business. I'm biased since a number of years back I posted similar pictures on a thread here. I even found a picture of somebody shearing and Angora Goat to satisfy any nitpickers who might point out that sheep and goats are different species. I have other reasons for supporting this functional explanation for the term yee gee kim yeung ma.

First, way back in the 80's my old Chinese sifu also explained it this way, teaching us to us it to mount, control, and pound a fallen opponent when sparring. When doing this, onlookers in the class would all cheer, "ride that goat!".

....BTW sifu was college educated in Hong Kong, and was a real stickler on getting the Cantonese terms right. He often pointed out how poorly educated Cantonese speaking practitioners often made errors by misunderstanding similarly pronounced words. And he interpreted this as "goat riding stance" (yeung ma), not as some interpretation of "yang"! Incidentally, he was Sergio's first teacher too. Really, I think Sergio is just looking for some more mystical interpretation to build his rep. Certainly it's nothing a pragmatist like GM Yip Man would have taught.

Secondly, it works even better IMO when applied standing to one side and turning, dropping your knee onto your fallen opponent's chest or neck as a gwai ma (kneeling stance). It works well when controlling your opponent's arm in an arm-bar while you press your hips forward, then droping your weight via your knee onto your opponent. Or you can pin him, pressing his arm across his face and delivering punches or elbows with the other arm. Either way, this stance can really cause pain, gives you great control, and allows you to disengage more easily than by straddling your opponent.

Finally, I'm a city boy and never sheared a sheep. But as a kid (pardon the pun), I'd help my grandfather during Spring roundup on his ranch. When roping and throwing the calves for branding we had to pin them with our knees from the side. Unlike my country-boy cousins, I sucked at riding and roping, but I did pretty well throwing and hog tying the calves, and pinning them with my knees. I looked at it as "wrestling practice", In retrospect, I think it was my first WC training!

 

[anerlich]

I even found a picture of somebody shearing and Angora Goat to satisfy any nitpickers who might point out that sheep and goats are different species.

You've not heard of shoats and geep, then.

 

[Vajramusti]

You've not heard of shoats and geep, then.

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geeps have high centers of gravity and can flip over.

 

[anerlich]

One thing which the William Cheung lineage does in SLT that I understand some other lineages do not has to do with the position of the "dead" hand, i.e. the one held beside the rib cage, not performing the technique.

We hold the hand a fist's distance out to the side of the body, elbow actively pulled back, stretching the pectoral muscle on that side, ostensibly opening up the lung. The "dead" hand is actually very much alive. The shoulder is not raised.

Since the breathing is ideally diaphragmatic, I am not totally sold on "opening the [upper] lung" being of huge value, though the posture would help to alleviate and reverse the kyphosis (upper spine and head bent forward), to which modern desk workers and Jiu Jitsu practitioners can be susceptible if corrective exercise is not undertaken.

Would be interested what others do here, and the reasons for those practices.

 

[LFJ]

Have you guys seen Sergio's vid where he claims "goat clamping" was a misinterpretation? If I remember the reasoning correctly.....the name for the stance was primarily passed down orally. The Cantonese word for "goat" is very close to "yeung", which is the Cantonese equivalent of "yang"....as in "yin & yang." So the real name for the stance is something like "character Gee, Yang adduction stance". The "Yang" referring to the acupuncture channels supposedly activated when standing in the stance. But somewhere along the line the meaning was lost and replaced with "goat clamping." Maybe because it was more colorful, more obvious, and more easily remembered! ;-)

I'm copying and pasting my response to this from another forum:


"...if there is ever any ambiguity due to tones one doesn't need to be shown the character, and be able to read it, to know which word is meant. It is a common thing to happen in the Chinese languages due to many homophones, but there is a very easy way around it simply by saying "yinyang de yang", that is "the yang from yinyang".

I don't believe there is a single Chinese person unfamiliar with this word, especially practitioners of TCMA. Plus, where there is such possible ambiguity, a teacher would not just say a name of a stance and not explain what it means. So this explanation of confusing things due to ambiguity caused by tones and being unable to read, I'd say, is really not an explanation that makes sense to anyone fluent in the language with any amount of speaking experience. Words are clarified like this all the time in daily speech.

Besides that, "clamping" yang does NOT mean reinforcing or opening the yang channel. Another meaning of the clamping character is to restrain or restrict. So it would mean you're restricting your yang energy in this stance. This guy just doesn't understand Chinese!"


So, how are yang meridians opened by "restricting yang energy"?!!

This is obviously a non-native speaker trying to be clever and fit terminology to their bogus theory.

 

[KPM]

^^^ I've always thought Sergio's explanation sounded a little "hokey." Never believed it myself. But makes for an interesting perspective.

 

[Marnetmar]

I'd like Sergio if he just documented obscure WC lineages and shut up about literally everything else. I'm sure he's very skilled and better than I'll ever be, but he's still a total fruitcake.

 

[geezer]

One thing which the William Cheung lineage does ...We hold the hand a fist's distance out to the side of the body, elbow actively pulled back, stretching the pectoral muscle on that side, ostensibly opening up the lung. The "dead" hand is actually very much alive. The shoulder is not raised..

...Would be interested what others do here, and the reasons for those practices.

Well, as you already know (apparently having also having experience in LT's "WT" lineage) is that we too keep the chambered fist separated from the body by a couple of inches for similar reasons.

One thing that a medical doctor who was an EBMAS practitioner pointed out to me was that this "suspended elbow" helps "open the chest" (just as you said above) and helps balance out all the contracting pressure experienced when pulling the elbows inwards towards center during the tan sau and fook sau movements in the saam pai fut section.

This can also reduce the dreaded Wing Chun Slouch! You know the famous "Hunchback of Wing Chun"?

 

[Punchy]

Also, by relaxing the bicep and anterior deltoid as you pull back using the lat and posterior deltoid, etc. you are providing so9me training to those muscles and reinforcing the idea of which muscles are to be used within the various structures.

Another benefit is by pulling back and working the chambered arm in such a fashion while the opposite arm is doing something entirely different begins to train the body to do two different things on opposite sides, such as a simultaneous tan dar or pak dar.

 

[anerlich]

Well, as you already know (apparently having also having experience in LT's "WT" lineage) is that we too keep the chambered fist separated from the body by a couple of inches for similar reasons.

One thing that a medical doctor who was an EBMAS practitioner pointed out to me was that this "suspended elbow" helps "open the chest" (just as you said above) and helps balance out all the contracting pressure experienced when pulling the elbows inwards towards center during the tan sau and fook sau movements in the saam pai fut section.

This can also reduce the dreaded Wing Chun Slouch! You know the famous "Hunchback of Wing Chun"?

I haven't had any experience with WT, other than seeing a couple of demos and some vids. Not that that matters for this discussion, or at least this particular point thereof.

I agree with you on the "anti-contracting pressure" thing, but I don't try to actively force the elbow to the centre (not saying you do either, just some earlier discussions lead me to believe some people do). I keep it down and let it come in, following the fingers. There's the "elbow pressure" that some people get excited about, but it's mostly forward, not in. Too much inward pressure allows the elbow to be trapped and pushed across the centreline in my experience.

I agree about the hunchback thing to a degree, and I can tell you a lot of guard players in BJJ have it much worse. Especially if their job involves sitting at a desk.

One problem I see with many people first starting to spar is more the opposite - the have their chest stuck out and chin up, trying to "see" over the top of their arms which are held too far out, chasing hands and not allowing the elbows to protect the torso. Great way to get knocked out or punched in the liver or floating ribs.

Also, by relaxing the bicep and anterior deltoid as you pull back using the lat and posterior deltoid, etc. you are providing so9me training to those muscles and reinforcing the idea of which muscles are to be used within the various structures.

Another benefit is by pulling back and working the chambered arm in such a fashion while the opposite arm is doing something entirely different begins to train the body to do two different things on opposite sides, such as a simultaneous tan dar or pak dar.

I agree the two hands doing different things in important, but I see SLT as mostly - mostly - a one hand at a time affair. One hand goes out, pulls back. Then the other hand goes out, pulls back.

 

[anerlich]

I'd like Sergio if he just documented obscure WC lineages and shut up about literally everything else. I'm sure he's very skilled and better than I'll ever be, but he's still a total fruitcake.

I know what you mean, but I am glad he's out there doing that stuff all the same. And there are way bigger Wing Chun fruitcakes than him (hint: starts with an H...)