Siu Nim Tao , xio niàn tóu, Siu Lim Tao - What's it all about

[Domino]

Only? Don't put yourslef down, it's a very important form and good if it got you thinking. For that reason I would carry on training.
And not just Chum kiu... you need to work on both SLT and CK hehe

No disrespect taken, but of course I need to practice more... as I have already said the only Wing Chun form I know is SLT, I'm a Taijiquan/Xingyiquan guy, have been for years, and at the moment it could be said to only dabble in Wing Chun. And I am not questioning SLT, I am just asking questions about it and this whole post is a result of another post that was pretty much a flame waiting to happen because the OP was a troll. But it got me thinking about some questions.

Also I do not know the wooden dummy form so I do not play with it and I do not know chum kiu or biu jee so focusing on them at this point would be kind of difficult.

Now in the spring I may be going back to train Wing Chun but I am still not 100% sure of that just yet. But if I do, after my sifu straightens out all the bad habit I have likely picked up since the last time I saw him, he already said he would like me to work on chum kiu before I make a decision as to continue training Wing Chun or stopping it altogether. So you are correct sir, I need to focus on chum kiu….but I need to learn it first

 

[Xue Sheng]

I agree with you: SLT will not teach you how to fight. However, I would like to point out that NO wing chun form would. They don't mimic the "look" of a fight like when you practice forms in other styles. Wing chun forms are meant to teach you the foundation of the system. Drills with other students (whether against certain attacks, or chi sao) are what prepare you for self-defense.

Agreed, I don't know of any form in any style I have ever trained that teaches you how to fight, although I do feel Xingyiquan forms tend to be real close and a bit more direct about it, but all forms really do is teach you foundations, heck look at most taiji forms. It is the drills and tuishou and sparing thet gets you to the fighting bits, even in Xingyiquan

 

[Punchy]

Agreed, I don't know of any form in any style I have ever trained that teaches you how to fight, although I do feel Xingyiquan forms tend to be real close and a bit more direct about it, but all forms really do is teach you foundations, heck look at most taiji forms. It is the drills and tuishou and sparing thet gets you to the fighting bits, even in Xingyiquan

I would really encourage you to pursue WC. Until you get to the chi sau, you have not truly seen WC. And I've read enough of your posts to know that you would be a chi sau kind of guy.
I can't speak for all schools, but in our lineage, it is SNT, then you do a bit of dan chi sau as you learn the CK. Then after CK comes the chi sau....and then you really see WC open up and you begin to see its possibilities.......Go for it, I'm telling you!

 

[Siunimtao]

This article might bee of some Guidence,
http://wcats.com/WCLessons/SLT/SiuLimTaoIntro.php

 

[simplewc101]

As far as Wing Chun goes the only form I know is Siu Nim Tao so if I pull out my background in other CMA styles I have to honestly admit I really don’t think Siu Nim Tao covers a whole lot as it applies to self Defense and fighting.
Don’t get me wrong, I do think if you have a good understanding of it you can defend yourself against some attacks but I do not see where Siu Nim Tao does much for protecting the lower body nor does it give you any training in movement and it is limited in upper body defense, although it does give you a pretty good idea of how to do that, if trained right. But if you are only doing Siu Nim Tao, IMO, the first time you get hit you are in for a shock. Meaning if you have never done a Bong Sau/Lop Sau Drill or any other type of drill it is going to hurt when someone actually hits you and it will shock you which will possibly lead to hesitation…and you all see where I’m going there. And I got to be honest here; I really think a lot of the meat is in the drills as it applies to fighting and external training. But then I only know Sil Lim Tao so what the hell do I know. That and I think they are pretty cool :EG:


What is Siu Nim Tao about, what is it supposed to teach you?


And while I’m here and know nothing about the other 2 forms that make up my flavor of Wing Chun


What is Chum Kio about, what is it supposed to teach you?


What is Bio Tzu about, what is it supposed to teach you?


And since the original reason I got into Wing Chun was the Muk Yan Jong… which I have yet to train... and since I am am looking for answers to questions that people genearally write books about


What is the Muk Yan Jong supposed to train you?

You definitely have a lot of good answers on here already, but I'll add a few cents for what its worth.
I'm YM/Ip ching lineage fyi
To answer some questions you pose in your original post, I highly doubt anyone here will tell you that SLT form is what you need for self defense.. As you suggest and others have reinforced, the self defense is in the drills. You can have the most perfect tan sao from the form, but be clueless as how to use it.
"I do think if you have a good understanding of it you can defend yourself against some attacks but I do not see where Siu Nim Tao does much for protecting the lower body"
To this statement^ -correct, SLT doesn't cover protecting your lower body (below belt), you learn that in CK.
"nor does it give you any training in movement and it is limited in upper body defense"
Correct again, it does not teach movement.. you learn that in CK. granted, if you're SLT level and that's all you know and you see some older guys doing CK, I'm sure you can figure out that in a fight, the situation might call for you to move your feet.
"it is going to hurt when someone actually hits you and it will shock you which will possibly lead to hesitation…and you all see where I’m going there." This statement has more to do with the fighting aptitude of the practitioner more so than it has to do with SLT.. even if you don't know any martial art/system, if you are prepared to fight the attacker and are prepared to throw fists with the guy, then I think you'll be expecting to be hit once or twice and be able to shrug it off... If you are not sure/scared/nervous/whatever from the beginning this is what will lead to hesitation from being hit.

"What is Siu Nim Tao about, what is it supposed to teach you?"
"What is Chum Kio about, what is it supposed to teach you?"
My answers are contained within several other members answers

"What is Bio Tzu about, what is it supposed to teach you?"
First rule of Bui Tze is you do not talk about Bui Tze! lol:erg:

"What is the Muk Yan Jong supposed to train you?"
I think that when doing the forms, sometimes one may focus so much on the movement of the body that an opponent is an afterthought. Mook Yang Jong has been put in the system to remember to think about the opponent, to refine your movements/hands, and to put a little more perspective to your WC knowledge. Plus it teaches you new things in the sections.


You should get back into WC!

 

[Xue Sheng]

You should get back into WC!

I am hearing this form a lot of people lately, including my last Wing Chun sifu and some of the Taijiquan people I have trained and trained with over the years.


Thanks

 

[Xue Sheng]

Learned another lineage's version of Siu Lim Tao; It comes from Leung Sheung and although it is not all that different than what I learned before that comes from Ip Ching, I think I like it better.

I was also shown Chum Kiu, I was not expected to remember it just yet but that is where I am headed

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Xue Sheung,

First off, SNT (or however you would like to pronounce it folks) is known as "Little Idea Form".

The theoretical knowledge your supposed to gain from this statement and form is that you can't evolve or improve upon anything without a starting point or "little Idea".

First off many of the techniques are down with both arms stimutaneously, making you train "both sides" as it were to maximize your muscle memory (except for techniques that HAVE to be done on the center line).

The reason you learn SNT first is that it is used to create your base. This teaches you proper form and use of the stance. In Wing Tsun, your stance is the most important tool you have. There is no debate on this. If you don't utilize your stance, every single technique(s) you utilize will lose its max effective potential. And that is what WT is really all about, getting maximum potential from minimal effort.

You learn all the hand techniques in this form which cover from your waist (gaun-sau) to your face (pak/tan-sau) and everything inbetween. There are so many techniques in this form that it is literally bursting at the seems, and yet people seem to not realize this at all. (Maybe I'll post sectionalized video's (8 Sections in SNT) on all the techniques and a brief explanation there of.

So the main point of SNT is learning your base, utilizing your base and learning how to employ the basic's of your techniques.

Chum-kiu (Seeking the bridge) is of course the second form of wingtsun. This form teaches you to seek to bridge yourself with your opponent (and the lat-sau to supplement this is also aimed towards that goal). In this form you learn how to turn 3 kicks which is where bridging becomes important (going from kicking range to punching, elbow/knees, and clinch range). Even though you see a bong-sau in SNT, the bong-sau in Chum-kiu is completely different. It is posed in the sideling stance (second stage of bong-sau/da). Many people have a very angular bong-sau, this is not correct. Bong-sau is a transitional movment, and should be extended as far away from you as possible (this is to give yourself the space to manuvear your hands and body). If your bong-sau is collapsed, you can easily have it punched through or just not give yourself enough room, which basically nullifies the whole idea of the bong-sau.

Biu-tze (Biu-Jee) is known as (Thrusting Fingers or Darting Fingers (also targeted fingers)...

The main focus of BT is to teach you how to employ your force. The type of force that all internal martial art schools should be familiar with is called "Gung-lik" or "elastic force". By keeping yourself as loose as you can, transference of force is unhindered in its path from your body to your opponents. You also see huen-bo (cirlcling steps) in the beggining of this form (during the elbow section).

The dummy form has many things to teach the observant pupil. First and foremost it teaches you how to correct your own form. If you step into the dummy wrong, you can feel it, because the dummy doesn't give. Your hand techniques will fail because your structure is off from the ground up (reminding us of the importance of SNT). The dummy form starts off with Sheung-man-sau (Double inquisitve arm) and then goes immeadiatly into a meng-geng-sau (neck pulling hand) and a lap-sau (grappling hand) while posing in the sideling stance. Which brings us to the next thing it teaches us: Utilizing our whole body for max effectiveness. For the keen observer you can also see where these techniques are taken from in chi-sau.

The dummy has more to teach us. It teaches us how to move around your opponent, how to enter and how to flow our techniques. I see many people who only do the form and don't free-style. I am all about free movement, and if you so choose you can take a student who has only learned for a week and throw them on the dummy and they will come away with some knowledge.

The dummy incorporates all three of the previous forms and shows you how to utilize your techniques and theories in one device.

The way it was explained to me when I first started wing tsun was that the dummy was the key to unlocking the secrets on how to beat another wingtsun man. And I find this to be a true but not an all-inclusive statement reguarding the effectiveness of training on the dummy.

Anyways, I hope I answered some of your questions, and I hope it helps you understand the system better.

All the best in your training sir,

Jeff