Siu Lim Tao - Proper breathing

[guy b.]

And yet, you've still managed to avoid directly answering the question. Ok. I give up. You guys are almost impossible to have any kind of real conversation with.

It is hard to converse in a normal way when you want to put words in my mouth all of the time.

YM was training the first section of SNT in a way that was appropriate to him. I train in a way that is appropriate to me. We both train slowly and with repetition.

 

[dudewingchun]

Anyone focus on strengthening the tendons in the forms ?

 

[LFJ]

[I was talking about fighting strategy. We work the elbow a certain way in training, but as I said, not for the sake of an elbow position.

---So exactly what is this mysterious elbow fighting strategy and how does it relate to the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form? You still haven't explained that.

I don't know anything mysterious. Information on Yip Man VT fighting strategy is contained within the forms. It should be explained to you from the very beginning as you learn the motions so you know how abstract training relates to fighting strategy.

That way it's not left to imagination and becomes mysterious, as many people make up ideas about Qigong and hidden mental powers.

So I'm not sure what you mean by "to reinforce elbow position" or what your end goal is. You seem to take a rather literal approach to your form, fighting from YJKYM.

---Again, it was Guy that stated: It is training the elbow. Doing it slow strengthens the musculature and prevents cheating.

And it was you that stated you train "to reinforce elbow position". That's not what Guy said, and he doesn't take a literal approach to the forms like you do.

You talk about fighting from YJKYM, "maintaining a position along the moving line", and "proper placement or position of the elbow". It sounds like you've just learned the motions but weren't taught the meaning, like most Yip Man students. The so-called "fixed elbow principle" is not a fighting principle.

I don't watch the clock or set a timer,

---So then it sounds like your answer is "No, I do not train the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form alone for up to an hour."

It could equally sound like I train it for longer than an hour. I often train outdoors in the evening and don't wear a watch when I train, so I don't know.

But you are leaping to the answer you want me to give so you can proclaim that training this way is only legendary and nobody does it, because you have no other explanation for it within the fight training methodology of Yip Man's VT and can only assume it's for Buddhist meditation, even though the guy was not a Buddhist.

It's okay if you don't know the purpose, but arguing against it when uninformed is a bit foolish.

 

[dudewingchun]

I don't know anything mysterious. Information on Yip Man VT fighting strategy is contained within the forms. It should be explained to you from the very beginning as you learn the motions so you know how abstract training relates to fighting strategy.

That way it's not left to imagination and becomes mysterious, as many people make up ideas about Qigong and hidden mental powers.



And it was you that stated you train "to reinforce elbow position". That's not what Guy said, and he doesn't take a literal approach to the forms like you do.

You talk about fighting from YJKYM, "maintaining a position along the moving line", and "proper placement or position of the elbow". It sounds like you've just learned the motions but weren't taught the meaning, like most Yip Man students. The so-called "fixed elbow principle" is not a fighting principle.



It could equally sound like I train it for longer than an hour. I often train outdoors in the evening and don't wear a watch when I train, so I don't know.

But you are leaping to the answer you want me to give so you can proclaim that training this way is only legendary and nobody does it, because you have no other explanation for it within the fight training methodology of Yip Man's VT and can only assume it's for Buddhist meditation, even though the guy was not a Buddhist.

It's okay if you don't know the purpose, but arguing against it when uninformed is a bit foolish.

If by hidden powers you are referring to CST. I dont know about all that but I have rolled with some and they have this power that was not present in WSL lineage guys I rolled with. CST guys have alot of power and good springy structure.

 

[LFJ]

Referring to a number of groups. There's a lot of mystical Wing Chun out there.

I wouldn't expect much of anything to be present in the WSL lineage guys you rolled with.

Anyway, rolling is one thing. Fighting quite another. I'm more interested in what people can actually do in fighting.

 

[dudewingchun]

Referring to a number of groups. There's a lot of mystical Wing Chun out there.

I wouldn't expect much of anything to be present in the WSL lineage guys you rolled with.

Anyway, rolling is one thing. Fighting quite another. I'm more interested in what people can actually do in fighting.

Fair enough. They still kicked my *** anyway, but still I doubt any WSL would have that power present in CST lineage., feel free to prove me wrong. I would like to chi sao with some PB guys sometime in my life. Regardless of arguments, If you guys come to NZ give me a buzz.

Yes I agree about fighting. Alot of lineages chi sao has zero cross over to real fighting.

What lineage exactly do you do ? Im a bit confused. Are you WSL or ?

 

[KPM]

It should be explained to you from the very beginning as you learn the motions so you know how abstract training relates to fighting strategy.

---I'd say that if you can't explain to us how the simple motions from the Saam Bai Fut section of SNT apply to your fighting strategy while having nothing to do with the position the elbow follows along the elbow line, then your system is likely is a bit too "abstract" to be all that practical.



It could equally sound like I train it for longer than an hour. I often train outdoors in the evening and don't wear a watch when I train, so I don't know.

--Well, I will give you guys credit for one thing.....at least you neither one out-right lied to us and declared "of course I spend up to an hour doing the Saam Bai Fut motions on a regular basis!"


But you are leaping to the answer you want me to give so you can proclaim that training this way is only legendary and nobody does it, because you have no other explanation for it within the fight training methodology of Yip Man's VT and can only assume it's for Buddhist meditation, even though the guy was not a Buddhist.

---And now you are putting words in my mouth after I have already explained here what I meant. Recall I noted that you don't have to be a Buddhist to practice basic mindfulness meditation. I never said Ip Man was Buddhist. I also pointed out that I learned this basic aspect of the SNT form when I first started learning Wing Chun 30 years ago. I didn't make it up.

 

[dudewingchun]

It should be explained to you from the very beginning as you learn the motions so you know how abstract training relates to fighting strategy.

---I'd say that if you can't explain to us how the simple motions from the Saam Bai Fut section of SNT apply to your fighting strategy while having nothing to do with the position the elbow follows along the elbow line, then your system is likely is a bit too "abstract" to be all that practical.



It could equally sound like I train it for longer than an hour. I often train outdoors in the evening and don't wear a watch when I train, so I don't know.

--Well, I will give you guys credit for one thing.....at least you neither one out-right lied to us and declared "of course I spend up to an hour doing the Saam Bai Fut motions on a regular basis!"


But you are leaping to the answer you want me to give so you can proclaim that training this way is only legendary and nobody does it, because you have no other explanation for it within the fight training methodology of Yip Man's VT and can only assume it's for Buddhist meditation, even though the guy was not a Buddhist.

---And now you are putting words in my mouth after I have already explained here what I meant. Recall I noted that you don't have to be a Buddhist to practice basic mindfulness meditation. I never said Ip Man was Buddhist. I also pointed out that I learned this basic aspect of the SNT form when I first started learning Wing Chun 30 years ago. I didn't make it up.

Also because Ip man wasnt a buddisht.. doesnt mean that buddhist things are not in the system. Not that I claim there are, just saying, he did not create wing chun or the methodology so why would one practitioners spiritual beliefs have anything to do with the system which was created by someone else however many years before Ip was even born?

 

[LFJ]

---I'd say that if you can't explain to us how the simple motions from the Saam Bai Fut section of SNT apply to your fighting strategy while having nothing to do with the position the elbow follows along the elbow line, then your system is likely is a bit too "abstract" to be all that practical.

If you train YMVT, your sifu should be able to explain it beyond Buddhist meditation.

I can explain the system, but I'm not your sifu.

--Well, I will give you guys credit for one thing.....at least you neither one out-right lied to us and declared "of course I spend up to an hour doing the Saam Bai Fut motions on a regular basis!"

And how do you know that would be a lie? Are you hiding in the bushes while I'm training?

---And now you are putting words in my mouth after I have already explained here what I meant. Recall I noted that you don't have to be a Buddhist to practice basic mindfulness meditation. I never said Ip Man was Buddhist.

What words did I put in your mouth? I never said you said he was Buddhist. But you're talking about a Buddhist meditation practice and YM doing it for no other reason that you can think of, when it is known that he stripped out a bunch of superstitious/religious ideas and trained for practicality in fighting.

I also pointed out that I learned this basic aspect of the SNT form when I first started learning Wing Chun 30 years ago. I didn't make it up.

So someone else made it up, or you're talking about a non-YM lineage. Probably mainland stuff.

 

[LFJ]

Also because Ip man wasnt a buddisht.. doesnt mean that buddhist things are not in the system. Not that I claim there are, just saying, he did not create wing chun or the methodology so why would one practitioners spiritual beliefs have anything to do with the system which was created by someone else however many years before Ip was even born?

Well, he was a skeptic and got rid of many religious elements the Chinese like to attach to everything.

His system is all about fighting.

Each part has its explanation as fight training, not meditation or cultivation of energies he didn't believe in.

 

[guy b.]

Recall I noted that you don't have to be a Buddhist to practice basic mindfulness meditation. I never said Ip Man was Buddhist. I also pointed out that I learned this basic aspect of the SNT form when I first started learning Wing Chun 30 years ago. I didn't make it up.

Why would YM be doing something derived in 1980s America directly from Buddhist practice? Why wouldn't he be doing VT instead?

 

[Danny T]

Why would YM be doing something derived in 1980s America directly from Buddhist practice? Why wouldn't he be doing VT instead?

He wouldn't because he couldn't have.

No...because he could not have been doing VT.

 

[KPM]

Why would YM be doing something derived in 1980s America directly from Buddhist practice? Why wouldn't he be doing VT instead?

If you think mindfulness training originated in 1980's America, then you are obviously completely clueless!

 

[KPM]

I can explain the system, but I'm not your sifu.

---If you are not willing to explain something so straight-forward to the members of this discussion forum, then why are you here?


So someone else made it up, or you're talking about a non-YM lineage. Probably mainland stuff.

---Augustine Fong.....Ho Kam Ming.....Ip Man. Again, you don't know what you're talking about if you think these basic mental training aspects aren't part of Wing Chun.

 

[KPM]

Here is what Hendrik has to say about it!

 

[KPM]

So someone else made it up, or you're talking about a non-YM lineage. Probably mainland stuff.

---Augustine Fong.....Ho Kam Ming.....Ip Man. Again, you don't know what you're talking about if you think these basic mental training aspects aren't part of Wing Chun.

This is an excerpt from a self-published book series written by Master Augustine Fong in the early 80's. This is from volume 7: Theories and Concepts, from the section on the internal and external elements of the Wing Chun system.

"Emptiness enhances your awareness of the surroundings. In addition, being empty enables you to realize the mistakes in your own techniques. It gradually develops the longer you can be still. Stillness or being calm helps both visually and sensually to decelerate the occurrences around you. If you are not still, something can happen and you may miss part or all of it."

Fong has been teaching this for close to 40 years. He emphasized doing the Saam Bai Fut section slowly as part of this development. Guy, LFJ...were you two even alive when this was written?

I also learned the same in the Pin Sun WCK system. This portion of our Dai Lim Tao short set is for helping to ingrain the movement of the elbow along the proper elbow line as well as developing this stillness of mind.

But....neither one taught to do the Saam Bai Fut section for an hour! Slowly, but not excruciatingly slow. I still doubt that Ip Man actually trained that way either.

 

[guy b.]

you think mindfulness training originated in 1980's America

The 1980s was when the practice was excised from buddhism and branded as "mindfulness" in western psychology/psychobabble

 

[dudewingchun]

The 1980s was when the practice was excised from buddhism and branded as "midfulness" in western psychology/psychobabble

Mindfulness is a very good skill to have regardless though. I can only see it helping wing chun, even if its grafted on imo.

 

[guy b.]

Mindfulness is a very good skill to have regardless though. I can only see it helping wing chun, even if its grafted on imo.

Why?

 

[guy b.]

Here is what Hendrik has to say about it!

Ideas of normal VT appear very strange. Looks like he needs to practice SNT more. Impossible to listen to though really, I only looked at the pictures.