Siu Lim Tao - Proper breathing

[Phobius]

While VT is not Tai Chi or Yiquan, both have similar slow movement training methodologies. It is more limited and specific in VT, more general and extensive in TC and YQ. People who are very good at Tai Chi and Yiquan continue slow movement training as long as they continue training, same as in VT. There is a specific reason for it. If you are interested in these systems you train it and continue to train it.

So you agree that I am right?

Slow movement training is not on the table of discussion, the discussion was why it was done insanely slow by YM. You say the only reason or at least the only real reason for doing a slow movement is to train elbow structure. I am wondering how this can be your logical outcome given that A) elbow structure is already as good as it gets, B) once elbow structure exists, your time is better used to train other areas. At least rather than spending hours (!) doing SNT once.

Or you are saying the optimum way to train according to WSLVT is to be doing SNT for hours at an end? At least if assuming it is all for becoming a better fighter.

Assuming that the logical goal of training so slow by YM was a meditative state, would it then be more logical that YM with age would attempt to perform SNT even slower while maintaining a constant perfect form to achieve a higher meditative state and at some point unlock a deeper understanding of his own muscles and movements.

Or are you saying that he was not after stretching joints and adapting muscles to a good elbow structure but rather to improve it through meditating on how every muscle in his body moved each instant? In such case one could argue that you are both correct in that it could be meditation as well as elbow structure in one.

But to stretch your joints in order to maintain a good elbow structure, if you can´t after some time have a good elbow structure due to limitations in your joints.... you should NOT stretch those joints. It is more likely you injure yourself because your body may have other problems such as internal scars preventing you from doing the movement you seek.

 

[Danny T]

So we have established that most on the forum train wing chun systems which do not contain good reasons for slow training, or for continuing such training beyond a beginner stage.

Uh.. No.
But you certainly have your opinion.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So we have established that most on the forum train wing chun systems which do not contain good reasons for slow training, or for continuing such training beyond a beginner stage.

I still remember the 1st chapter of my English text book:

"Book. This is a book. Chalk. This is a chalk. What do I do with my book? What do I do with my chalk?"

If you still need to review those English text when you are 70 years old, your English has some serious problem. It's normal to still open your college text book (such as "To be, or not to be...") when you are 70 years old. It's not normal to still open your elementary school text book (such as "This is a book.") when you are in your old age.

 

[guy b.]

So you agree that I am right?

Not sure how you would draw this conclusion

Slow movement training is not on the table of discussion, the discussion was why it was done insanely slow by YM. You say the only reason or at least the only real reason for doing a slow movement is to train elbow structure. I am wondering how this can be your logical outcome given that A) elbow structure is already as good as it gets, B) once elbow structure exists, your time is better used to train other areas. At least rather than spending hours (!) doing SNT once.

A) Elbow degrades rapidly if not trained properly and regularly. B) Same as A.

Or you are saying the optimum way to train according to WSLVT is to be doing SNT for hours at an end? At least if assuming it is all for becoming a better fighter.

Doing the first section of SNT slowly is certainly an essential part of VT

Assuming that the logical goal of training so slow by YM was a meditative state, would it then be more logical that YM with age would attempt to perform SNT even slower while maintaining a constant perfect form to achieve a higher meditative state and at some point unlock a deeper understanding of his own muscles and movements.

I don't know anything about meditation or whether "height of meditative state" is related to speed of physical action. I am guessing not, but am open to further enlightenment on this issue by experienced meditators.

VT doesn't contain meditation. Lots of people meditate without doing SNT. Overall meditation seems quite an unlikely explanation, given that the VT system emphasises slow movement during that section of SNT. Most likely YM was just practicing the system in the usual way.

Or are you saying that he was not after stretching joints and adapting muscles to a good elbow structure but rather to improve it through meditating on how every muscle in his body moved each instant?

No. Correct thought can help during 1st section SNT. But it isn't meditation. It is training.

But to stretch your joints in order to maintain a good elbow structure, if you can´t after some time have a good elbow structure due to limitations in your joints.... you should NOT stretch those joints. It is more likely you injure yourself because your body may have other problems such as internal scars preventing you from doing the movement you seek.

Ok

 

[guy b.]

Uh.. No.
But you certainly have your opinion.

Given resistance to the idea so far I think "most" would be a fair assessment. Unless people just like arguing?

Note that I didn't say "all". If you agree with me then great.

 

[guy b.]

If you still need to review those English text when you are 70 years old, your English has some serious problem. It's normal to still open your college text book when you are 70 years old. It's not normal to still open your elementary school text book when you are in your old age.

SNT is not analogous to an elementary text in subject x. It is in the system for a reason, and meant to be trained continuously. Abandoning SNT because you have reached a higher level is a misunderstanding of its purpose, and of the system. It isn't about a progression to greater things. SNT still essential to everyone, no matter how good.

 

[Phobius]

SNT is not analogous to an elementary text in subject x. It is in the system for a reason, and meant to be trained continuously. Abandoning SNT because you have reached a higher level is a misunderstanding of its purpose, and of the system. It isn't about a progression to greater things. SNT still essential to everyone, no matter how good.

To clarify the facts:
*. Noone have said that doing SNT slow is bad, no matter your age or knowledge of WC.
*. Noone have said that SNT should ever be abandoned.
*. Noone has said SNT is analogous to elementary text in subject x. (It was said that if doing SNT was just rudimentary training, it is not a logical thing to focus on for a 70 year old master)

What people have said:
1. Doing SNT insanely slow, like so slow that weed will grow from between your fingers before you have finished your first movement is probably not because you need to stretch your joints. May be for meditative purposes.
2. Doing SNT insanely slow, such as spending more than an hour just finishing the first parts has to be done in order to keep good elbow structure. If not trained the elbow structure will vanish quickly.

My point is, I dont know if 1. or 2. is valid. I just dont believe in number 2 being logical, quite frankly it sounds way out there in terms of theories.

Also elbow structure should not be lost with time. Sure stretching needs to be maintained but trust me, you do not need to spend 15 minutes doing a single taan sau movement in order to get good elbow structure, little less to maintain said elbow structure. So extending the time to execute taan sau when the training would achieve same result in just a fraction of the time. I find your logic flawed.

If you can not maintain good elbow structure without doing taan sau movement in 15 minutes timeframe then it is my sincere belief that you are training incorrectly or have missunderstood some key elements in regards to your training. And I do not mean this to offend but to rather say you should be aware of the risks that might be present with your training in such a case.

EDIT: And to add, maintaining a pure 100% focus for 15 minutes straight is something I doubt any normal person will ever achieve without training meditation.

 

[KPM]

Unless people just like arguing?

.

You mean like you?

 

[KPM]

What we haven't mentioned, is that this whole story of Ip Man spending an hour on this section of the SNT may be completely bogus and not true at all. It may simply be one of those "Sifu is amazing!" kind of stories.

 

[guy b.]

To clarify the facts:
*. Noone have said that doing SNT slow is bad, no matter your age or knowledge of WC.
*. Noone have said that SNT should ever be abandoned.

I haven't claimed that anyone said these things. Why are you bullet pointing these non events?

Noone has said SNT is analogous to elementary text in subject x. (It was said that if doing SNT was just rudimentary training, it is not a logical thing to focus on for a 70 year old master)

I believe that English is not your first language? Here is just such an analogy:

If you still need to review those English text when you are 70 years old, your English has some serious problem. It's normal to still open your college text book when you are 70 years old. It's not normal to still open your elementary school text book when you are in your old age.

2. Doing SNT insanely slow, such as spending more than an hour just finishing the first parts has to be done in order to keep good elbow structure. If not trained the elbow structure will vanish quickly.

It would probably be better if you quoted rather than paraphrasing.

elbow structure should not be lost with time. Sure stretching needs to be maintained but trust me, you do not need to spend 15 minutes doing a single taan sau movement in order to get good elbow structure, little less to maintain said elbow structure. So extending the time to execute taan sau when the training would achieve same result in just a fraction of the time.

I think you have some misconceptions about what is being trained during the slow section of SNT. Slow training and repetition is an integral part of the system.

If you can not maintain good elbow structure without doing taan sau movement in 15 minutes timeframe then it is my sincere belief that you are training incorrectly or have missunderstood some key elements in regards to your training. And I do not mean this to offend but to rather say you should be aware of the risks that might be present with your training in such a case.

I am sure Yip Man would be delighted to know your opinion on this issue. Thanks for your concern with my physical health. I am fine, thanks.

 

[guy b.]

You mean like you?

People who like argument do it for the sake of it, i.e. not caring about the subject being discussed. I care about VT

 

[Phobius]

I believe that English is not your first language? Here is just such an analogy:

Let me clarify for you, he never said slow movements was equal to opening an elementary english textbook. He said that if a textbook only contained rudimentary training/information it was not normal to open such a book at age of 70. If however it was not rudimentary, such as a college textbook, then it would hold value.

So if what YM did was nothing more than rudimentary training, when moving slowly. That would not be a normal behavior, but if it was more of a college level behavior (non-rudimentary) it would be normal.

Nowhere was it said that moving slowly or even doing SNT was equal to a elementary school textbook. And no, like most people in the world English is not my first language. Hope still you can understand my text.

It would probably be better if you quoted rather than paraphrasing.

What part was incorrect with your own statements? This is what I picked up from your text. If anything of it was incorrect feel free to clarify. Or to drop the subject, the later probably suits me better since this whole discussion is as relevant as watching paint dry.

I think you have some misconceptions about what is being trained during the slow section of SNT. Slow training and repetition is an integral part of the system.

I think you have some misconceptions as to what is being discussed, either that or you are just changing the content to suit a need of yours to win some debate you have. Noone has said anything about slow training being wrong. It has never been a debate or even argued with anyone.

 

[dudewingchun]

Then I am sorry for being predictably non-relativist. At least I made you smile.

What do you mean exactly when you say elbow skill degrades rapidly ? in what way ? I am curious to know.

 

[LFJ]

There's a simple scientific explanation for it all, proven by modern research on how the brain works. But people here don't share the same VT elbow ideas or fighting strategies, so it may be irrelevant to them.

Also, I sense there would be resistance to the established science anyway, because acknowledging it would also be an admission to not understanding the extreme basics of YMVT, and we know egos wouldn't allow that.

If I had no explanation within the training method related to fighting for why Yip Man would have trained the very first section of the very first form this way, and had to suggest completely unrelated things like Buddhist meditation or Qigong, even though Yip Man was not a Buddhist or believer in Qigong, that would be a huge red flag that I don't understand YMVT, and I'd definitely be looking elsewhere to understand the actual fight training of it.

 

[dudewingchun]

There's a simple scientific explanation for it all, proven by modern research on how the brain works. But people here don't share the same VT elbow ideas or fighting strategies, so it may be irrelevant to them.

Also, I sense there would be resistance to the established science anyway, because acknowledging it would also be an admission to not understanding the extreme basics of YMVT, and we know egos wouldn't allow that.

If I had no explanation within the training method related to fighting for why Yip Man would have trained the very first section of the very first form this way, and had to suggest completely unrelated things like Buddhist meditation or Qigong, even though Yip Man was not a Buddhist or believer in Qigong, that would be a huge red flag that I don't understand YMVT, and I'd definitely be looking elsewhere to understand the actual fight training of it.

Fair enough.

What do you think about Chu Shong Tin's interpretation of Siu nim tao then ?

 

[LFJ]

Fair enough.

What do you think about Chu Shong Tin's interpretation of Siu nim tao then ?

Well, according to this article of his, he says Yip Man told him SNT is about "establishing an idea in the mind".

But he wasn't told what the idea was and went on practicing and come up with his own idea.

Pretty much confirms again that Yip Man didn't really teach the details of the system to many people, especially not to those uninterested in fighting.

If people find other purposes for training and enjoy what they do, that's fine, I guess.

 

[KPM]

There's a simple scientific explanation for it all, proven by modern research on how the brain works. But people here don't share the same VT elbow ideas or fighting strategies, so it may be irrelevant to them.

---Well let's hear it then! What modern research says that something as simple as elbow position in a Wing Chun technique needs to be trained by doing the technique excruciatingly slow over with 15 minutes devoted to a single simple motion. I know of no modern sport that trains that way. So if you got some research to show that, I would love to see it!


Also, I sense there would be resistance to the established science anyway, because acknowledging it would also be an admission to not understanding the extreme basics of YMVT, and we know egos wouldn't allow that.

---And some people's egos seem to be incapable of admitting that not EVERYTHING in Wing Chun is all about elbow positioning and punching.


If I had no explanation within the training method related to fighting for why Yip Man would have trained the very first section of the very first form this way, and had to suggest completely unrelated things like Buddhist meditation or Qigong, even though Yip Man was not a Buddhist or believer in Qigong, that would be a huge red flag that I don't understand YMVT, and I'd definitely be looking elsewhere to understand the actual fight training of it.

---I think that if I thought my entire system of Wing Chun was devoted simply to training an elbow position and how to punch, that I would be looking for a more efficient martial art. Because it doesn't take the entire system of Wing Chun to train that! I think that if I was practicing a martial art that care nothing about helping me develop myself mentally and spiritually/morally and was only concerned with fighting....I would be looking for another martial art.

 

[LFJ]

---Well let's hear it then! What modern research says that something as simple as elbow position in a Wing Chun technique needs to be trained by doing the technique excruciatingly slow over with 15 minutes devoted to a single simple motion.

"Elbow position in a Wing Chun technique" was not my assertion.

---And some people's egos seem to be incapable of admitting that not EVERYTHING in Wing Chun is all about elbow positioning and punching.

Also not my assertion.

I think that if I was practicing a martial art that care nothing about helping me develop myself mentally and spiritually/morally and was only concerned with fighting....I would be looking for another martial art.

VT is a secular martial art. Maybe it's not for you then. That's fine. I'm personally non-religious and don't need a martial art to base my morality on, so it's all right for me.

 

[guy b.]

"Elbow position in a Wing Chun technique" was not my assertion.

The barrage of bad paraphrasing continues.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I assume the "elbow position" is to train the proper arm moving path that "all straight punches come out of your mouth". There are some trade off there.

PRO - If you always punch from the center of your chest, you can "protect your center from inside out".
CON - you will need to move your hand from the side of your body to the center of your body before you punch out. This will require extra time.

Should you move your elbow to the center of your chest before you punch out, or can you just punch out from the side of your body, your elbow then merge into your center line? Instead of making a 90 degree sharp angle, may be a smooth curve is even better.

Since it has both PRO and CON, it should not be treated as unbend-able rule. Especially when you start to develop your hook (or hay-maker), this rule won't apply and you have to train how to "protect your center from outside in".