Siu Lim Tao - Proper breathing

[JowGaWolf]

Hello,
how should I breath in Siu Lim Tao form? Especially when to breath in, and when to breath out?

My Sifu said it is not important, when I asked him. But I don't beleave it. That's why I am asking you here.

Based on Qi Gong, I suppose this principles:
1) When my arms goes close to my body, I should breath in.
2) When my arms goes away from my body, I should breath out.

But I can't be sure it's true for every move in the form. Also in the form, there are many moves in which you can't apply these principies, because your arms doesn't go closer or away from your body (end of the 4th set, or 6th set), so these principles will not work here.

Thanks,
Michal Mikolas
(practicing Wing-Chun for about 7 months now)

I'm not sure why your sifu said it's not important unless he doesn't want you to focus on the breathing at the moment. If it's something that you are just learning then he may just want you to get the movent into memory so that when it's time to focus on breathing you'll be able to focus 100% on that instead of the movement.


This is what I tell students
Try breathing in when throwing a punch and then all will become clear. My experiences is that our bodies know better than we do of when is the right time to breath. With Qigong you'll need to understand what you are doing in your form in order to understand how to breath properly. Sometimes an outward motion isn't a strike so you don't need to breath out, sometimes an outward motion is a transition, which in that case you can breath in. Sometimes the movements are strikes that follow right after each other which in that case you may need to pause to inhale before going into the next strike. Sometimes 2 strikes require a longer exhale instead of a shorter one for each strike. Every strike doesn't require the same pattern of breathing.

90% of the time you can figure it out simply because one way feels natural and the other way feels like you are fighting with yourself, similar to like breathing in when punching

 

[mograph]

Ah, the age old question, who to listen to, your Sifu, or guys on the internet?

Exactly.

 

[Pat M]

Always remember when you first learn to walk up steps, it's all about putting one foot in front of the other and hanging onto the hand rail!

After a time you will walk faster, even run. Perhaps eventually you will completely let go and tap dance on the way up.

Don't be in a hurry to get up the stairs.

 

[Marnetmar]

Breathing should be relaxed and from the diaphragm as far as I'm concerned.

I don't really like the idea of treating WC like Chi Kung, or even as an internal art*. WC might be "internal" in the sense that it relies on structure and leverage for power generation but it's certainly not internal in the same way that Chi Kung or Tai Chi is internal.

Nothing against Chi Kung by the way, since I practice a little Pal Dan Gum. But if you want to to Chi Kung, do Chi Kung. WC training is not the place to get mystical IMO.

*Yip Man WC, anyway. Branches like Pan Nam and Pao Fa Lien have more internal approaches AFAIK

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

often too slowly to synchronize with your breathing, ...

When that happen, you (general YOU) should speed up your move. This is why I'm strongly against the slow training for the sake of "slow". Your speed should be decided by your body move and not by your intention. If you breath fast, you should move fast. If you breath slow, you should move slow. You breathing should decide the speed of your body move. It should not be the other way around. IMO, to coordinate multiple breathing for any single slow move will make no sense.

sometimes using one breath for a fast three-shot combination,

Agree! You can use one exhale for many punches. You exhale 1/n of your lung capacity for each punch that you throw where n can be 1, 2, ... or 7, 8. Of course if you just train WC for health, you may breath any way that you prefer. But if you train WC for fighting, your body move should coordinate with your breathing.

 

[mograph]

How would synchronizing your breathing apply to circular movements?

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you breath fast, you should move fast. If you breath slow, you should move slow. You breathing should decide the speed of your body move. It should not be the other way around.

This is how I was taught as well.

How would synchronizing your breathing apply to circular movements?

It works similar to what has been described already with a few exceptions. I know there is one combination where I inhale on a strike, but the strike isn't the same as a punch, it's more like a swinging fist. So in this specific combination I'll exhale on the downward swing and inhale on part of the upward swing, while exhaling on the follow upward swing. The punch is similar to the big swinging punches you see here. at 2:28 mark

 

[geezer]

This is how I was taught as well. ....It works similar to what has been described already with a few exceptions.

I would have to say that the saam pai fut sequence in Wing Chun's Siu Nin Tau form (the form referenced by the OP) would be one of these exceptions you mentioned. The movements are done very slowly, ...at advanced levels, each movement in that segment can easily take over a minute. I've heard it said that Grandmaster Ip would sometimes spend 15 minutes or more just performing the extension of the tan-sau. Hard enough to do that. But really hard to do that in one breath!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've heard it said that Grandmaster Ip would sometimes spend 15 minutes or more just performing the extension of the tan-sau.

When Gungli system guys train their "功力架(Gungli Jia)", they would hold their posture for "as long as the can". They use it to build up strength, endurance, and body structure. Does WC slow training also try to achieve the same goal?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would have to say that the saam pai fut sequence in Wing Chun's Siu Nin Tau form (the form referenced by the OP) would be one of these exceptions you mentioned. The movements are done very slowly, ...at advanced levels, each movement in that segment can easily take over a minute. I've heard it said that Grandmaster Ip would sometimes spend 15 minutes or more just performing the extension of the tan-sau. Hard enough to do that. But really hard to do that in one breath!

Sounds like he was meditating lol. What's the purpose of him doing it that slowly? Did anyone ever say why?

 

[geezer]

Sounds like he was meditating lol. What's the purpose of him doing it that slowly? Did anyone ever say why?

Some say it is to refine structure and energy (like what John "Kung Fu" Wang mentioned), that it is a form of chi-gung, a form of meditation, and the snarkier types reference Grandmaster Yip's opium habit.

 

[guy b.]

Sounds like he was meditating lol. What's the purpose of him doing it that slowly? Did anyone ever say why?

It is training the elbow. Doing it slow strengthens the musculature and prevents cheating.

 

[KPM]

Sounds like he was meditating lol. What's the purpose of him doing it that slowly? Did anyone ever say why?

I think it was meditating. "Mindfulness" meditation can be applied to almost anything....walking, sitting, counting breaths, or doing the Saam Bai Fut section of the SLT form. By focusing on a single thing...especially a movement done very slowly....one's mind begins to settle and clear. Moving this slowly has to be very relaxed. It is not strengthening muscles, it is not worrying about elbow position...it is a calming and "settling" exercise. It is a very basic Buddhist meditation technique. It is only "internal Chi Gung" in the sense that relaxing and calming the mind and letting it "settle" naturally encourages good Chi flow. Following the motion of the very slow movement of the hand out in Fook Sau and back in Wu Sau is much the same as sitting in Zazen and counting the breaths. It is simply something to focus on to quiet the thoughts.

 

[geezer]

Notice the tan-sau position!
http://www.phrases.org.uk/images/pipe-dream.jpg

 

[guy b.]

Following the motion of the very slow movement of the hand out in Fook Sau and back in Wu Sau is much the same as sitting in Zazen and counting the breaths.

Then why not just sit in a pose and count the breaths?

Do you really think that the first section of SNT has no purpose other than meditation?

 

[Phobius]

Then why not just sit in a pose and count the breaths?

Do you really think that the first section of SNT has no purpose other than meditation?

I dont think he said that, think he was referring to spending 15 minutes doing extension of tan sau. A theory of KPM was that it had to be meditative purposes.

We are not as standard doing that extension for 15 minutes, most of us would not have that capability. So this is not a discussion on purpose since if it was most of us would have failed that purpose.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Ah, the age old question, who to listen to, your Sifu, or guys on the internet?

Well, duh, us guys on the internet of course. After all, the training and testing we go through before we're allowed to post anything online is pretty rigorous.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

...and the snarkier types reference Grandmaster Yip's opium habit.

Like, wow man. Like, did you ever really look at your tan sau?

 

[mograph]

Well, duh, us guys on the internet of course. After all, the training and testing we go through before we're allowed to post anything online is pretty rigorous.

We have our own peer review process, too.

 

[KPM]

Then why not just sit in a pose and count the breaths?

Do you really think that the first section of SNT has no purpose other than meditation?

I didn't say that. Obviously is it going to reinforce good positioning of the arm and flow of technique. But I do not see its primary purpose being training the elbow, or strengthening any muscles. There should be very little tension involved. Therefore it wouldn't strengthen any muscles. Going this slowly you are also not specifically thinking about any elbow position or anything else. The advantage of doing the mediation this way rather than sitting is that is does reinforce Wing Chun technique because you are standing in the YGKYM and you are using Wing Chun. But in my opinion, it is not primarily about trying to work on your Wing Chun technique. Doing it this slowly is primarily a meditation technique.