Siu Lim Tao - Proper breathing

[guy b.]

I do not see its primary purpose being training the elbow, or strengthening any muscles. There should be very little tension involved. Therefore it wouldn't strengthen any muscles.

If the elbow is held in the correct position (an unnatural one) then muscles must be involved in keeping it there. If the arm is moving, however slowly, then muscles are moving it. Therefore the first section of SNT trains the musculature, as well as joint and tendon flexibility, in functioning from a position which is not natural for human beings. It is done slowly and repeated a lot because of the unnatural nature of the position, and the need to train the body for it in a thorough and repeated way.

Going this slowly you are also not specifically thinking about any elbow position or anything else.

I would disagree. During this section of SNT it is important to think of the elbow all of the time, because training the elbow is the end goal. I don't think that meditation is as important as the elbow in VT.

 

[Phobius]

If the elbow is held in the correct position (an unnatural one) then muscles must be involved in keeping it there. If the arm is moving, however slowly, then muscles are moving it. Therefore the first section of SNT trains the musculature, as well as joint and tendon flexibility, in functioning from a position which is not natural for human beings. It is done slowly and repeated a lot because of the unnatural nature of the position, and the need to train the body for it in a thorough and repeated way.



I would disagree. During this section of SNT it is important to think of the elbow all of the time, because training the elbow is the end goal. I don't think that meditation is as important as the elbow in VT.

You do know we were talking about why Ip Man spent 15 minutes doing a single extension of taan sau?

I personally doubt Ip Man felt the need to train his muscles and joints, and yet again he was not a young man at this point in time. Anyways I just felt the need to highlight it before discussion gets out of hand. Might be it is the main purpose of VT SNT, but was it the purpose of Ip Man doing it in such a slow pace? Or can he be considered to already achieved proper training with such needs and instead was after something else?

Question is what... and the question may be interesting. Or we are just reading too much into nothing.

Anyways this is off-topic in two aspects, it is off-topic since it does not relate to breathing, and two it is off-topic because your comment refers to lineages and not exact reason why Ip Man spent 15 minutes on his single movement. Which in itself was off-topic. So double off-topic. Making this post of mine triple-off-topic.

 

[guy b.]

Even YM needs to constantly train the positions, or the ability degrades, because moving in this way is unnatural.

KPM is not talking only in specific terms about YM in particular, but also in general terms about the first section of SNT. But specific or general, the point still applies.

I am not talking in a lineage specific way. YM's system was VT

 

[Phobius]

EDIT: Removed a bunch of text saying bla bla.

Truth is I just don't care anymore. Guy_b you want to fight with KPM, go ahead and be my guest. I think this topic has already been covered so I might as well ignore the thread.

 

[wckf92]

Even YM needs to constantly train the positions, or the ability degrades

I can see what your trying to say here Guy b. But, maybe (for Yip Man) he had already ingrained his WC (VT) by this stage in his life.

I learned to ride a bike when I was a kid...my ability to ride a bike has not degraded since then...

 

[Pat M]

This slow meditative training is something I have trained to some degree. The focus was not muscular or elbow position.

The idea was connection of emotion movement and the flow of the earth. (Before dawn works well)

Considering the OP breathing is slow and steady in through the nose out through the mouth.

Why IM practiced in this way is impossible to know however I find it very interesting.

 

[KPM]

KPM is not talking only in specific terms about YM in particular, but also in general terms about the first section of SNT. But specific or general, the point still applies.

I am not talking in a lineage specific way. YM's system was VT

I don't know what thread you were reading, but I thought we were specifically addressing the question of why Ip Man spent up to an hour simply doing the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form. There are far better ways to strengthen muscles and reinforce technique than doing the Saam Bai Fut section at such an agonizingly slow pace. And correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you point out in the past that when you write "VT" you actually mean "WSLVT"? Are you now back to being inconsistent?

 

[geezer]

....when you write "VT" you actually mean "WSLVT"? Are you now back to being inconsistent?

You say that like it's a bad thing. Heck, inconsistency is about the only thing I'm consistent about.

Anyway, let's not get back into bickering. I'm sure Guy can clarify what he means. Obviously he and his lineage are highly focused on training a particular elbow position.

The thread, however was about breathing in SNT. I only brought up the slow pace of the saam pai fut section for the benefit of non-WC people like Jow Ga to illustrate why we don't link each breath to a movement as some other martial arts do. Beyond that, it goes without saying that different lineages will vary greatly in how they perform and understand this form.

 

[guy b.]

I thought we were specifically addressing the question of why Ip Man spent up to an hour simply doing the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form

As previously mentioned, he was training his elbow position.

better ways to strengthen muscles and reinforce technique than doing the Saam Bai Fut section at such an agonizingly slow pace

Slow pace is essential when training to gain control of the correct musculature without waking the wrong musculature. It is essential for this process. There is no better way to do this than thinking correctly and moving very slowly.

 

[KPM]

Slow pace is essential when training to gain control of the correct musculature without waking the wrong musculature. It is essential for this process. There is no better way to do this than thinking correctly and moving very slowly.

So, are you saying you routinely practice your SNT form with taking an hour or more for just the Saam Bai Fut section?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Slow pace is essential when training to gain control of the correct musculature without waking the wrong musculature. It is essential for this process. There is no better way to do this than thinking correctly and moving very slowly.

The concern is, there are so many MA skills that's worthwhile to train. Is this the best place to put training time into?

 

[guy b.]

The concern is, there are so many MA skills that's worthwhile to train. Is this the best place to put training time into?

For VT elbow is essential. We train elbow all day

 

[guy b.]

So, are you saying you routinely practice your SNT form with taking an hour or more for just the Saam Bai Fut section?

I train my elbow in the variety of ways contained in the system, including the slow repetition of fook during the first section of SNT. In fact I repeat the process a lot more than three times, because it is so very important.

 

[guy b.]

I learned to ride a bike when I was a kid...my ability to ride a bike has not degraded since then...

Riding a bike is much easier than elbow control in VT. Elbow is difficult and ability declines rapidly if you stop doing it.

 

[wckf92]

Slow pace is essential when training to gain control of the correct musculature without waking the wrong musculature.

What about Olympic sprinters? Do they sprint in slow motion? Since they train explosively/plyometrically...are they developing incorrect musculature?

 

[mograph]

What about Olympic sprinters? Do they sprint in slow motion? Since they train explosively/plyometrically...are they developing incorrect musculature?

Yeah! What about trampoline artists? High divers?

... or swimmers, maybe? Read Eric's first comment (#3) below:
McGinnis: 5 Training Tips For Sprinters

Or here:
Swim Slower To Go Faster

The point of slow training is to improve technique. It's not the entire training, just a valuable component.

 

[KPM]

I train my elbow in the variety of ways contained in the system, including the slow repetition of fook during the first section of SNT. In fact I repeat the process a lot more than three times, because it is so very important.

You didn't answer my question.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For VT elbow is essential. We train elbow all day

Assume that slow training can help beginner to have the correct body movement.

Beginner training stage - slow training
Advance training stage - fast training

For Ip Man during his old age, he still did his slow training, it just doesn't make sense.

 

[LFJ]

Yip Man wasn't a Buddhist and didn't believe in Qigong.

 

[LFJ]

Assume that slow training can help beginner to have the correct body movement.

Beginner training stage - slow training
Advance training stage - fast training

For Ip Man during his old age, he still did his slow training, it just doesn't make sense.

The system is taught linearly, giving the illusion of beginner to advanced stages, but really it is all pieces to a puzzle. Once you have the big picture you continue to use each piece. There are no throwaway parts.