Siu Lim Tao - Proper breathing

[dudewingchun]

Does anyone know the reasoning of the first section Siu nim tao regarding the elbow for any non Ip Man lineages ?

A bit unrelated I remember in the book Ip man portrait of a kung fu master there is a chapter regarding how his name is spelt and they are quite adamant that it is Ip man not Yip. Ip ching is one of the authors.

 

[KPM]

Does anyone know the reasoning of the first section Siu nim tao regarding the elbow for any non Ip Man lineages ?
.

Pin Sun WCK does not have the SNT form. But some of the individual sets are break-outs from the original SNT form of Leung Jan. One of them includes the Saam Bai Fut sequence. We do it to train to reinforce elbow position, but I was never taught to do it at the agonizingly slow pace we have been saying that Ip Man may have used. We do it slowly, but reasonably slow, and it may be repeated more than three times. So I don't disagree with what Guy and LFJ have been saying in general. What I disagree with is the idea that taking an hour just to do the Saam Bai Fut sequence is necessary for training elbow position. And I'll point out that neither Guy or LFJ have stated that they themselves actually do this! Guy kind of skirted answering this direct question by saying he trains his elbow position in multiple ways. But he didn't actually say "yes" that he trains it this way....meaning taking an hour just to do the Saam Bai Fut sequence of the SNT form.

 

[LFJ]

We do it to train to reinforce elbow position,

We don't train for the sake of an elbow position. This was the context in which WSL was speaking when he said not to be a slave to the system. Many don't see beyond the elbow training. Ironically, many misquote him on this too because they don't know what he was talking about.

 

[KPM]

We don't train for the sake of an elbow position. This was the context in which WSL was speaking when he said not to be a slave to the system. Many don't see beyond the elbow training. Ironically, many misquote him on this too because they don't know what he was talking about.

???? Way back in post #32 of this thread Guy wrote:

It is training the elbow. Doing it slow strengthens the musculature and prevents cheating.

 

[dudewingchun]

Pin Sun WCK does not have the SNT form. But some of the individual sets are break-outs from the original SNT form of Leung Jan. One of them includes the Saam Bai Fut sequence. We do it to train to reinforce elbow position, but I was never taught to do it at the agonizingly slow pace we have been saying that Ip Man may have used. We do it slowly, but reasonably slow, and it may be repeated more than three times. So I don't disagree with what Guy and LFJ have been saying in general. What I disagree with is the idea that taking an hour just to do the Saam Bai Fut sequence is necessary for training elbow position. And I'll point out that neither Guy or LFJ have stated that they themselves actually do this! Guy kind of skirted answering this direct question by saying he trains his elbow position in multiple ways. But he didn't actually say "yes" that he trains it this way....meaning taking an hour just to do the Saam Bai Fut sequence of the SNT form.

Interesting.

I have always heard and been told that part is for qi gong and elbow training.

 

[LFJ]

???? Way back in post #32 of this thread Guy wrote:

It is training the elbow. Doing it slow strengthens the musculature and prevents cheating.

Yes? We train the elbow, but not for the sake of an elbow position.

Gotta have the big picture and the end goal of fighting in mind. It's the "idea" YM told CST the form was establishing in the mind.

 

[KPM]

Yes? We train the elbow, but not for the sake of an elbow position.

Gotta have the big picture and the end goal of fighting in mind. It's the "idea" YM told CST the form was establishing in the mind.

Obviously the "position" is in motion....an elbow line. We all know that. Now you are just talking semantics. No wonder everything turns into an argument with you guys!

 

[LFJ]

What position are you talking about then?

 

[KPM]

What position are you talking about then?

The position within the elbow line. Is there anyone that has done Wing Chun for more than a few classes that doesn't understand the idea of the elbow line being trained in the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form? Do I really need to explain that? What have you been talking about??

 

[LFJ]

You said you do it to reinforce elbow position. I'm not sure what that means to you in your lineage. What for?

 

[KPM]

You said you do it to reinforce elbow position. I'm not sure what that means to you in your lineage. What for?

You didn't answer my question. Again, the last few exchanges show why it is so hard to carry out any kind of conversation with either you or Guy. You both seem to have the same posting habits.

And just to be clear, I had asked: What have you been talking about?? to clarify what you have been referring to if not the path or line that the elbow is traveling along during the Saam Bai Fut section. If you actually answer that, we might understand where you are coming from. But you didn't answer it, you just came back with another question.

 

[KPM]

And I'll ask another question I've asked already that didn't really get an answer. Do you....Guy and LFJ....train the SNT form by taking up to an hour just to do the Saam Bai Fut section alone....as Ip Man is rumored to have done? "I train my elbow in multiple ways" is not really an answer to that question. A simple "yes" or "no" will do. Thanks!

 

[LFJ]

I was talking about fighting strategy. We work the elbow a certain way in training, but as I said, not for the sake of an elbow position.

Taan and fuk aren't application ideas to me, as you should know. We must be able to use the elbow freely as needed. Otherwise we are a slave to the system.

So I'm not sure what you mean by "to reinforce elbow position" or what your end goal is. You seem to take a rather literal approach to your form, fighting from YJKYM.

I rarely go through SNT as a complete set. I spend time training sections. I don't watch the clock or set a timer, but a considerable amount of time is spent on it when that is the focus in solo training. For the first section, slower is better, because that means more time and focus strengthening an infrequently used and unnatural behavior. Two minutes is not enough.

 

[KPM]

[I was talking about fighting strategy. We work the elbow a certain way in training, but as I said, not for the sake of an elbow position.

---So exactly what is this mysterious elbow fighting strategy and how does it relate to the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form? You still haven't explained that.




So I'm not sure what you mean by "to reinforce elbow position" or what your end goal is. You seem to take a rather literal approach to your form, fighting from YJKYM.

---Again, it was Guy that stated: It is training the elbow. Doing it slow strengthens the musculature and prevents cheating. Strengthen the muscles for what, if not to maintain a position along the moving line? Prevents cheating of what, other than proper placement or position of the elbow? You two seem to be arguing something that is not at all clear to me, and likely the majority of people following this thread.



I don't watch the clock or set a timer,

---So then it sounds like your answer is "No, I do not train the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form alone for up to an hour." Again, all I asked for was a simply "yes" or "no" answer. How hard is that?

 

[Punchy]

I rarely go through SNT as a complete set. I spend time training sections.

I think this is how the forms were designed to be done. I practice the form as a whole, then take out certain components or sections and drill them for a while, then I again go through the form.
To me the goal is not to get good at the form but to learn what the form contains.

 

[guy b.]

Guy kind of skirted answering this direct question by saying he trains his elbow position in multiple ways. But he didn't actually say "yes" that he trains it this way....meaning taking an hour just to do the Saam Bai Fut sequence of the SNT form.

I do the 1st section of SNT as slowly as is beneficial for me. This varies with degree of training and is personal. Repetition is necessary. Slowing the motion as much as feasible is necessary.

It is training for the body for VT, utilising physical and mental methods, it isn't training elbow lines, fixed positions, etc

So then it sounds like your answer is "No, I do not train the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form alone for up to an hour." Again, all I asked for was a simply "yes" or "no" answer. How hard is that?

It is a progressive training excercise which is fully integrated into the rest of the system and which evolves with the particular practitioner. The question doesn't make much sense in this context. Would it be fair to say that you don't seem to have a particularly systemic approach to wing chun? You often seem to want yes no anwers where it isn't appropriate.

 

[KPM]

I do the 1st section of SNT as slowly as is beneficial for me. This varies with degree of training and is personal. Repetition is necessary. Slowing the motion as much as feasible is necessary.


---So apparently your answer is also "No, I do not take up to an hour to do the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form"......??



It is training for the body for VT, utilising physical and mental methods, it isn't training elbow lines, fixed positions, etc

---What "physical methods" are you talking about if not maintaining the elbow consistently along the pathway trained by the Saam Bai Fut section of the form?



Would it be fair to say that you don't seem to have a particularly systemic approach to wing chun? You often seem to want yes no anwers where it isn't appropriate.

---No, not at all fair. How would you draw that conclusion from me simply asking if you actually train the way Ip Man is rumored to have train for the reasons you believe he trained that way? And how would my question be inappropriate? Seems like a pretty straight-forward and easily answered question to me! Why do you and LFJ have such trouble answering such a simple question? Either you believe that Ip Man felt it necessary to spend up to an hour doing the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form simply because this elbow training is such a fragile and perishable skill or not. Either you also train like Ip Man because you believe it is so important or not. Or are you suggesting that it was important for a Master like Ip Man with more than 50 years experience practicing Wing Chun in order to maintain this elbow skill, but its not important for you?? But Ok, if you don't like simple "yes" or "no" quesions.....Guy...LFJ.....how often in your training do you actually spend up to an hour on just the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form?

 

[KPM]

I think this is how the forms were designed to be done. I practice the form as a whole, then take out certain components or sections and drill them for a while, then I again go through the form.
To me the goal is not to get good at the form but to learn what the form contains.

Yes! That is essentially the approach of Pin Sun WCK. Each of the short sets are trained independently to really drill them in and get them down well. But then you can go back and string them together back to back like a more traditional "form." For instance....the section of the SNT form where you do a Pak Sau, Tan Sau, Palm strike....is one of the basic short sets in Pin Sun that we practice repeatedly on its own....practice in a 2 man drill....and practice on the dummy. Later on the set is put together with some of the other short sets to practice something that is similar to the Ip Man SNT form. But we see the short sets as the main part of the curriculum, not the longer combined "form."

 

[guy b.]

apparently your answer is also "No

That wasn't my answer

What "physical methods" are you talking about

Use of correct musculature, avoidance of use of incorrect musculature

how would my question be inappropriate?

Lack of context, avoidance of information already provided, a strong desire to fight over nothing.

you believe that Ip Man felt it necessary to spend up to an hour doing the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form

Yes

you also train like Ip Man

Yes

it was important for a Master like Ip Man with more than 50 years experience

Yes

 

[KPM]

That wasn't my answer



Use of correct musculature, avoidance of use of incorrect musculature



Lack of context, avoidance of information already provided, a strong desire to fight over nothing.



Yes



Yes



Yes

And yet, you've still managed to avoid directly answering the question. Ok. I give up. You guys are almost impossible to have any kind of real conversation with.