reletionship between instructor and student

[dancingalone]

Methinks my instructor has and has brought back the ethos he was taught there.

At least you're not invoking a tv show now as evidence that Okinawan instructors are always casual and informal.

Insulting language? what the hell are you on about man? You don't have to like my opinions but don't read insult all the time, thats just boring.

The lady doth protest too much.

Exhibit A:

It's something most people do for a couple of hours a week and the odd weekend, they work hard at it, love it, enjoy it but that's all it is to most people. If they were full time students in a full time dojo it would be different and it wouldn't come out as pompous when people say there should be separation between students and their instructors.

Exhibit B:

If you are an instructor and you are any good you'll be fine, if you are a lousy instructor I'm guessing you need that separateness and that 'don't talk to sensei unless he talks to you' thing going on.

The implication you make is rather clear in those passages. Teachers who are detached intentionally from their students are both "pompous" and "lousy". You said it. Therefore I take issue with it. You did use insulting language... at least in the English I write and speak, both pompous and lousy have negative connotations.

There are bad instuctors out there who use the 'sensei mystique' to hide behind, I've seen them, I haven't said anyone here is a bad instructor at all so don't snipe at me.

If you are amending your words and saying SOME bad instructors hide behind a sensei mystique, I certainly wouldn't take issue with your opinion. That's certainly not what you were saying before however.

You haven't had a go at one poster who said you must never ever be friends with anyone you train with but chose to have a go at me, interesting. If you have a problem with me PM me instead of getting at me in public.

I imagine because you wrote your opinion in the fashion you did. I had no problems with what WC_Lun said, which was "I agree that a lot of the seperatedness and formality in some schools is a direct result of the head instructor's ego and lack of real skill or teaching ability."

And why would I PM you when I am addressing comments you made in public? You're not necessarily the audience for them. This is an archived forum where thousands of people read the posts, past, present, and future.

 

[Tez3]

dancingalone you shouldn't imgaining things into what I wrote and you should stop assuming so much. I can't even comment on something I've seen in a programme without you assuming I'm offering it as proof, you don't do conversation do you, it has to be confrontation all the way. You read what you want to into my posts and there's nothing I'm ever going to say that will get your dislike for me out of your mind so carry on, I'm not refuting anything, repeating anything or adding anything more to what you say. Your mind is made up and stuck in it's rut where I'm concerned, read what you want to into my posts, have fun with them. Be happy with what you think I've written, says more about you than me.

 

[dancingalone]

Yes, it's all there, in black and white, isn't it? I would be inclined to fold a losing position, too.

 

[Tez3]

Yes, it's all there, in black and white, isn't it? I would be inclined to fold a losing position, too.

On my, I didn't realise this was a competition!

Losing position? No, just bored of you chasing me across threads with your combatative and personal remarks. This is for discussion and conversation, it's not a point scoring competition nor a spite fest. As I said if you have a problem with me, stop inflicting it on others and PM me.

You have read into my post what you want, I can't help that but making it personal is against the rules here. You can think because I'm now saying I won't respond to your posts any more that you have 'won', if so I'm happy for you, but I don't intend to break rules and risk boring others with what has turned out on this board your personal sniping campaign against anything I write, I don't expect people to agree with me, they dont even have to like it but they do have to reply without making it a personal attack which everytime, on every subject you do. I wish you goodbye sir.

 

[dancingalone]

Who is sniping? You make some very insulting remarks on this thread and I am calling you to the carpet on it. Don't like it? Well, don't be insulting. If I were to reverse the position and make some generalization that people who are buddy, buddy with their students are unprofessional fools, I'd imagine that you would (rightfully) call me to account on it.

As for chasing you, well believe it or not, no, I'm not. I do read MT a lot and when I see a post I want to respond to, I will. Your participation certainly isn't needed for me to have interest.

We've had good discussions in the past and I hope we can have them in the future. But, you were abrasive with your remarks here and I wish you could understand and accept that. We shall see. 3, 2, 1...

 

[Master Dan]

OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHH can we all just get along??


Two comments on respect Tradition is Tradition you eather do it or not? I have always taught my students they are not just bowing to me but as a sign of repect to the person who taught me and know good maners and etiquet universal to all MA shows they are well educated and that they had a good instructor.

I explain I do not want to get in trouble with my superiors because you have not developed good habits.

A few years ago I sat in on a panel of judges with my GM before he died and a particular student was testing new from out of state probably around 21 years old and he had no manners at all. My GM at the end of the test was giving a review of each person that had tested he mad this guy stand out saying who taught you I think maybe I hate your instructor?

Then he explained if you do not teach your child when they are young to have respect what will you do in later life beat him up? How about when you are old and feable maybe your kids will beat you up?

I don't know but I am watching you we will see in the future if you get a black belt or not?

I have always taught my students win or loose dose not matter doing your best learning and having good attitude does for Gods sake don't do something that gets me called on the carpet later? When you act up it makes me and all of us look bad.

I did hear a real differnt take from a second generation Korean Master he said Americans are to greedy wanting to much respect from uneducated people. First you must teach them by showing them respect and in time they will give it back. I found this very novel comming from a home grown master but a good point.

 

[Tez3]

I've recently started JKD in our local leisure/sports centre, it's great, I'm enjoying it and learning a lot but in the same hall, just behind the dividing curtain is a TKD class. The instructors there have the students bowing to them from the floor every time they speak to the student and the student has to kneel on the floor and bow if he wants to speak to or answer the 'sensei'. While waiting to go into training I asked the mother of one of the students about this and was told it was because the instructors were such great people and this was how martial arts was supposed to be done ie how it was done in Korea. These instructors had turned themselves into mini gods. In 20 years of training martial arts it's not the first time I've seen this and not only in martial arts, I've seen it in Scouting too.
If you are a good instructor you can maintain your composure and discipline with anyone while you are teaching, egos are left at the door including the instructor's, theres no need for extremes of behaviour, ie too buddy buddy or too icy when teaching. Bowing is polite when it's appropriate to do so.
Being friends outside the dojo with people you would be friends with under any circumstances is easy.

Where this discussion is going awry is that we are talking about two different things. There is a difference with being friends with people you train with if you would be friends with them if you didn't do martial arts and there is wanting to be firends with everyone you teach. It's the latter that doesn't work not the former. You don't start teaching a class with the aim of being everyones mate. You don't start teaching with the aim of being a demi god either though.

There's no insult, poor instructors hide behind 'customs', titles and their postion as 'sensei'. By being aloof and pompous, the intructors discourage the students from getting close enough to see that the instruction is pants. Too many non martial arts people think this is how Asian martial arts are conducted. If these instructors started friendships with their students they would be discovered to be frauds.

If you see teaching martial arts as a job, you are being paid to do it I expect you don't see your students as much other than that, students with all that entails. Most of the people I know don't get paid and get a great deal out of their martial arts friendships made while training.

 

[dancingalone]

Humph. The above is just another restatement of the same extreme viewpoint.

Is it not even slightly possible that an EXCELLENT, INVOLVED teacher could choose to a disciplined and ordered learning environment? Using formality and encouraging an atmosphere of thinking before asking or doing can be part of this. So too can be the decision to maintain only a teacher/student relationship, at least at the beginning stages of the martial progression by the pupils.

It's a diverse world. Different approaches can work for different people who come from all walks of life from a multitude of countries and culture. I have no problems acknowledging an informal atmosphere where first names only are used and where the teacher is a 'guide' rather than a model to learn from and follow can work well. In fact some have already weighed in saying so. Fine. I don't doubt that is the case and have already remarked as such.

Yet at the same time, I fail to see why the opposite of the above cannot be acknowledged as equally valid. Nor do I understand why it can't be understood that YES, some EXCELLENT Asian teachers do indeed choose to be more formal along the lines of the Confucian model. Asia is an awfully big place and even within the same locales, personal preference is the final word. And guess what? We don't even have to be Asian to still have the same VALID opinion.

To deny otherwise is to be obstinate and without reason.

 

[jthomas1600]

The focus of this thread seems to have shifted some from the original topic to the topic of respect/separation/formality inside the school. That's fine. Here's another take on it. Some schools make no secret that they are about more than developing a students fighting skills. Our school is one of those schools. Our instructor is open about the fact that he hopes to see students use TKD to grow in all aspects of their lives. At least half of our students are between the ages of 7 and 17. We bow before entering the training area. We have a little opening "ritual" if you will that takes about 30 seconds where we bow to both the Korean and U S flag and our instructor. We say yes sir/ma'am to instructors when in the training area. We bow before sparring. We have a closing "ritual/ceremony" that takes about 30 seconds that includes the kids turning and bowing to their parents to close the class. When you take all this formality and spread it out over an hour class, it really is not all that much bowing. It is a very small part of the program. That being said, I have seen my children grow drastically in their understanding of how and when to show the same kind of respect to adults (at home, school, church etc.) in their every day lives. So our school is succeeding in accomplishing their objective. If another school just wants to focus on the fighting aspect that's cool too.

 

[Tez3]

The focus of this thread seems to have shifted some from the original topic to the topic of respect/separation/formality inside the school. That's fine. Here's another take on it. Some schools make no secret that they are about more than developing a students fighting skills. Our school is one of those schools. Our instructor is open about the fact that he hopes to see students use TKD to grow in all aspects of their lives. At least half of our students are between the ages of 7 and 17. We bow before entering the training area. We have a little opening "ritual" if you will that takes about 30 seconds where we bow to both the Korean and U S flag and our instructor. We say yes sir/ma'am to instructors when in the training area. We bow before sparring. We have a closing "ritual/ceremony" that takes about 30 seconds that includes the kids turning and bowing to their parents to close the class. When you take all this formality and spread it out over an hour class, it really is not all that much bowing. It is a very small part of the program. That being said, I have seen my children grow drastically in their understanding of how and when to show the same kind of respect to adults (at home, school, church etc.) in their every day lives. So our school is succeeding in accomplishing their objective. If another school just wants to focus on the fighting aspect that's cool too.

I can see nothing wrong with any of that. I wasn't talking about this type of training place, it sounds a good place to train. It's a misunderstanding to think I believe anything else.

I've never said I'm against formality or tradition, I'm against those who use it for their own gain not for their students benefit. Surely we are all against that? I dislike intensely the poor instructors who use the bowing and formality to set themselves up as people who are thought to be almost infallible. Training should be disciplined, how can it not be? I have no time for instructors who cannot be humble in their approach to martial arts. It's a privilege to teach not a right. As I said the bad instructors NEED to have to a separation from the students to save being found out, this hardly equates to those who CHOSE to have a more formal relationship with their students. Good instructors have a choice about how they approach their classes, bad instructors don't. Good instructors don't make children get on their knees to bow before speaking to them or to be spoken to. Good instructors might not want to be friends with their students but they aren't unfriendly to them.

My point is that yes you can be friends with people you teach and train with, others disagree and say no you must never be friends with the people you teach. To me it's a case of being adult about it.

 

[dortiz]

I commented on being in very traditional classes. They were under really good high ranked teachers.
At the same time I have also studied under equally gifted teachers in a much more relaxed environment.
In both scenarios we were friends and so were a bunch of the top students. It was all about style of teaching and what worked for that instructor. It had nothing to do with their ability. I learned a lot in both scenarios as well. So as usual for me the definitive answer to which one is best is..... YES : )

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The only problem I see with becoming friends with students and socialising with them is that some students may view this as favouratism towards some students and not others which could cause internal politics. I run a business and as a rule I dont socialise with my employees for the same reason, I think its only fair that they all feel like they are on a level playing field. It also can start little "click" groups occuring. When I did karate as a teenager I found this problem because the sensei had his little group of mates who he would spend a lot of time talking to before and after class while other students would get no more than a "good evening" from him and to me this didnt create a great atmosphere.

 

[Tez3]

The only problem I see with becoming friends with students and socialising with them is that some students may view this as favouratism towards some students and not others which could cause internal politics. I run a business and as a rule I dont socialise with my employees for the same reason, I think its only fair that they all feel like they are on a level playing field. It also can start little "click" groups occuring. When I did karate as a teenager I found this problem because the sensei had his little group of mates who he would spend a lot of time talking to before and after class while other students would get no more than a "good evening" from him and to me this didnt create a great atmosphere.

A bad instructor. A good one can juggle being friends with teaching fairly. He obviously didn't leave the 'outside' world at the dojo door and I suspect did have favourites. Good instructors are respected as such especially by good friends and being fair must come at the top of the list of qualities that make a good instructor.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

A bad instructor. A good one can juggle being friends with teaching fairly. He obviously didn't leave the 'outside' world at the dojo door and I suspect did have favourites. Good instructors are respected as such especially by good friends and being fair must come at the top of the list of qualities that make a good instructor.

I can see where you are coming from but the instructor in question was actually quite a good instructor and was a nice, down to earth guy. He just seemed to have the usual traditional dojo demeanor with 80% of the students and then seemed a lot more open and "social" with his 'mates'. I dont believe he favoured them (from a proffessional standpoint) but it could have been perceived that way especially to newer students who didnt know the guy. I just think he could have been a little more proffessional by either being social with all the students or had the more conservative aproach with all students but should have been consistent with all students.