Cult of Personality in Taekwondo

[miguksaram]

I'm surprised no one recognizes her as a columnist of TKDTimes. There was heavy discussion started by an ex-member or two on another site about how it really is a cult over there.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

These students proclaiming him the greatest, toting that other practitioners and instructors are somehow less of everything.
What is all this about?

People do this with specific persons as well as specific organizations started by these persons. They 'tote' others as 'somehow less of everything' because they feel by putting others down they can somehow lift themselves up. This can stem from an inferiority complex to simply not being nice people. I see this as particularly present on message boards due to distance and safety.

What are some of the examples of things their followers do that seem "overboard."

Continually covering for dishonorable practices by seniors. Misdirecting discussion on rewritten histories. Attacking others directly or indirectly with differing opinions on these types of individuals. Not honestly discussing their faults as well as their achievements. Condemning in others the exact things they give praise to these individuals.

 

[shesulsa]

People do this with specific persons as well as specific organizations started by these persons. They 'tote' others as 'somehow less of everything' because they feel by putting others down they can somehow lift themselves up. This can stem from an inferiority complex to simply not being nice people. I see this as particularly present on message boards due to distance and safety.



Continually covering for dishonorable practices by seniors. Misdirecting discussion on rewritten histories. Attacking others directly or indirectly with differing opinions on these types of individuals. Not honestly discussing their faults as well as their achievements. Condemning in others the exact things they give praise to these individuals.

Yep. Do you think personality cults are particularly rampant in Korean arts or martial arts in general?

 

[miguksaram]

Yep. Do you think personality cults are particularly rampant in Korean arts or martial arts in general?

Martial arts in general. This is not limited to just KMA. I have seen it in JMA and CMA's as well.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Yep. Do you think personality cults are particularly rampant in Korean arts or martial arts in general?

I feel that it can certainly be present in any art. I will admit though, having participated in numerous discussion, on numerous boards, on numerous arts, it has been my experience that KMA's can be considered a leader in this area. That is a general statement however, and I should note that it is centered on a small though vocal minority. Most students/teachers in a particular art know the pros and cons of their art, especially in this day and age where facts and history are easily checked. And they are very honest and forthright in the positives as well as the negatives associated with the art in question.

It is an easy thing to determine. Simply see who is able to honestly converse on a topic/person/art/organization, discussing both pros and cons equally and not attacking those of a differing opinion or attacking those that bring up the negatives in an honest conversation. Those that are able to honestly able to discuss the accomplishments of a person/art/organization as well as the things that aren't quite so favorable. To do this is a positive experience for all. It allows us to honestly look at a person/history/organization and identify the positive and avoid the negative. To white-wash things is to avoid looking at all facets/angles. No one is perfect. No organization is perfect. No art is perfect. And being a 'senior' doesn't not make one perfect. Indeed, we should be able to factually look at 'seniors' to see what was done right, what was done wrong and where improvement can and should be made.

This is growth.

 

[ETinCYQX]

WTeverlovingF is THAT all about?

Well put...

 

[shesulsa]

I owe you a debt of thanks. A serious debt of thanks.

I have told a story for over thirty five years, never once knowing the name of the person I was speaking of.
Back in the seventies, I was at a tournament somewhere in New England. I forget where, I went to several hundred of them. There was a woman Master there, with about a hundred of her students. All I knew was their school was from Vermont.

I had never seen true cult behavior before. Read about it, sure. Seen it on TV, of course. But I had never seen it first hand. Until that tournament. A woman, a short Korean woman with high heels, was standing on a table with a hundred of her students sitting around her. They were all in gi, she was in white and red clothes. (the heels were red) She was stomping on the table and speaking to them like a TV evangelist, hands gesticulating wildly, a smile as big as as a politicians on election day. Her students were mesmerized, swaying too and fro, chanting and cheering. It seemed like I was watching the filming of a really bad movie. But not a Martial Arts movie, more like a "I'll drink the cool aide" movie. It was kind of scary. No, check that, it was really fricken scary. (and I was a cop) I have always told people that is was the strangest thing I have ever seen in Martial Arts. Hell, it was the strangest thing I've ever seen anywhere.

But I didn't know who it was. Until your post. I Googled her name, thinking, "Nah, it couldn't be her, could it?"
And there she was. For I could never forget that face. Not in a million years.

My deepest thanks for your post.

One other thing....
Her students couldn't fight worth a lick. They could chant their asses off, but that was it.

I signed up for her newsletter for sh*ts and giggles.

 

[miguksaram]

I signed up for her newsletter for sh*ts and giggles.

Cool...let us know the flavor of the kool-aide, when you get a chance.

 

[shesulsa]

Cool...let us know the flavor of the kool-aide, when you get a chance.

Oh I won't be drinking it. Honestly, having removed myself from a cult of personality I am trying to absorb this kind of information and expose these tactics as I think traditional martial arts can live without this kind of crap.

 

[puunui]

I am curious what other Taekwondo practitioners think about this subject, and do they feel it is common, or not so common?

I think we have to first define what a "cult" is. I did a quick search and found this page: http://cultdefinition.com/

I am assuming that people are talking about the negative types of cults.

I think in Korea, martial arts cults are not common, at least not in taekwondo or hapkido. I think that the pioneers of these arts are the anti-thesis of cults in that they give their students great freedom to explore and expand their art in any direction that they choose. The pioneers are not control freaks, which I think is one of the requirements of cult like behavior, asserting complete control over a cult member, to the point of isolating them from outside friends and family. I don't see that happening. None of my teachers have ever told me I can no longer speak to my parents, for example.

A Taekwondo instructor who sets the stage for his own glorification, creating a cult of personality around himself, by either his own actions or by the actions of his students. Students who incessantly carry out the glorification of this type of instructor, even after the instructors death. These students proclaiming him the greatest, toting that other practitioners and instructors are somehow less of everything.

I think sort of thing is more popular outside of Korea, than within. I also think that martial arts attracts the type of individual who would be most suseptible to cult behavior, those with low self esteem, in need of a surrogate parental figure, etc.

What are some of the examples of things their followers do that seem "overboard."

I think in the context of religious cults, the cult is usually a breakaway group from a mainstream religion, where the leader sets himself up as some sort of prophet or messiah. The messiah rejects the teachings of the mainstream and instead probably spends an inordinate amount of time explaining or convincing members or potential members why the mainstream group is wrong, flawed, corrupt, misguided, whatever. They take control and radically change the teachings of the mainstream group from which they came, and make their own ceremonies, certificates, and that sort of thing, saying this is "better".

I think a lot of break off groups from taekwondo and hapkido have leaders that fall into this category, why the kukkiwon or the kha groups are bad, you don't need their certification, I'll give you mine with my signature on it instead, they are sport we are real martial arts, etc. I think the isolation from the mainstream and the extreme criticism of the mainstream is what sets the martial arts cult types from the rest. This is by the way, the anti thesis of the way that korean martial arts have developed, with a flexible tolerant philosophy, the great freedom that practitioners have to sculpt the art to their own interests, tastes and abilities, as well as the general feeling of inclusion which is the hallmark of both hapkido and taekwondo.

 

[troubleenuf]

Went to YK Kims seminar in Florida a few years back... got the same feeling from that. Kind of if YK Kim told his students to do ANYTHING they would do their best to do it without giving it a second thought.

 

[puunui]

Kind of if YK Kim told his students to do ANYTHING they would do their best to do it without giving it a second thought.

With a good teacher, that type of attitude from the student is good and will lead to much growth and progress. But if you are unfortunate to have a "bad" teacher, then that type of attitude may lead you down the wrong road. The key is to take responsibility for one's own learning and choose the best teachers possible. This is the single most important decision to be made by a student, the selection of a teacher, assuming that the teacher accepts you as a student.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I think we have to first define what a "cult" is. I did a quick search and found this page: http://cultdefinition.com/

I think perhaps it would be better to look at the definition of 'cults of personality'. According to Wiki;

A cult of personality arises when an individual uses mass media, propaganda, or other methods, to create an idealized and heroic public image, often through unquestioning flattery and praise.[SUP][1][/SUP] Cults of personality are usually associated with dictatorships. Sociologist Max Weber developed a tripartite classification of authority; the cult of personality holds parallels with what Weber defined as "charismatic authority". A cult of personality is similar to hero worship, except that it is established by mass media and propaganda.

Hero worship would be the key in regards to the direction the thread is taking.

I think that the pioneers of these arts are the anti-thesis of cults in that they give their students great freedom to explore and expand their art in any direction that they choose.

It agree that this is the anti-thesis of the topic of discussion. These pioneers probably encouraged students free expression of exploration in expanding the art. After all, this is what they themselves did. And any pioneer would/should be applauded for encouraging this. Which would cause me to question your following comments;

I think a lot of break off groups from taekwondo and hapkido have leaders that fall into this category, why the kukkiwon or the kha groups are bad, you don't need their certification, I'll give you mine with my signature on it instead, they are sport we are real martial arts, etc.

Since the pioneers encouraged free expression to explore and expand the art in question, they may well break off from the original group. Just because they then break off doesn't mean that they necessarily portray the original group as, to use your words, 'bad'. But again, as I mentioned in my original posting in the thread, an honest discussion of the pros and cons of the original group should be encouraged and not attacked. Anything else falls into covering up and hero worship which is in the very definition of 'cults of personality'. In regards to certifications issued, the new group would/should indeed issue their own as the focus, goals, teaching or tactics may be different. It wouldn't make sense to issue a certificate that does not reflect what you teach or train in.

 

[puunui]

EGO. its all about ego and the need to feel important. In some cases its a compensation for thier inability to exsist socially within the real world.

I think there is truth here. Much of the martial arts, especially at the higher levels, deals with relationships. If you don't have any, or don't like the ones you have, then I guess the only thing left to do is go form your own group, and then isolate your members from interacting with the larger world while at the same time criticizing those who are able to function in that real worth. No one wonder people attack Steven Lopez so much, they can't compete with him, or even understand what it takes to do what he does, so the only thing left is to arm chair quarterback him.

 

[puunui]

Actually I was thinking Tae Yun Kim more than Choi, Hong-hi.

I met her a couple of times. The first time was at the grand opening of my friend and senior's new dojang. She rolled up in a brand new mercedes, escorted by two young males wearing matching suits who followed her around everywhere she went. She did the "he can do, she can do, why not me?" pep talk, and then she was gone. She has done quite well for herself outside of the martial arts, which at this point is a hobby for her.

 

[puunui]

Oh I won't be drinking it. Honestly, having removed myself from a cult of personality I am trying to absorb this kind of information and expose these tactics as I think traditional martial arts can live without this kind of crap.

Looking at your screenname, I think I know what your prior organization was. I think. Let me ask you this. Do you think there is a difference between publicly recognizing and showing respect for one's teachers as well as the creators of the art that you study and cult behavior? I was raised to respect my elders, realizing that they are not always perfect people. So as to the pioneers of the arts that I study, I always discuss the positives of what they have done, because I figure that there are more than enough people out there who only focus on the negative, or what they think or consider negative, from their personal and cultural perspective. But not many realize or know about how hard they worked in creating what we all take for granted, so I talk about that.

Does that make me a cult member, like some would like to accuse me of being? Or does that show that I understand the culture from which the arts that I study originated from, where others might not?

 

[shesulsa]

Looking at your screenname, I think I know what your prior organization was. I think. Let me ask you this. Do you think there is a difference between publicly recognizing and showing respect for one's teachers as well as the creators of the art that you study and cult behavior? I was raised to respect my elders, realizing that they are not always perfect people. So as to the pioneers of the arts that I study, I always discuss the positives of what they have done, because I figure that there are more than enough people out there who only focus on the negative, or what they think or consider negative, from their personal and cultural perspective. But not many realize or know about how hard they worked in creating what we all take for granted, so I talk about that.

Does that make me a cult member, like some would like to accuse me of being? Or does that show that I understand the culture from which the arts that I study originated from, where others might not?

It is very easy to dwell on the negative, and the art I've trained in is really such a neat art to study. There is quite the difference between *showing the earned respect* and consideration for a talented martial artist and *worshipping* him. I don't think that kind of position earns anyone the right to be abusive of people, of policy, of personal responsibility. Their talent and knowledge cannot make up for the damage they could potentially cause others.

So, yes I see a difference and no, I don't think you're a cult member if you focus on the positive.

 

[puunui]

I don't think that kind of position earns anyone the right to be abusive of people, of policy, of personal responsibility. Their talent and knowledge cannot make up for the damage they could potentially cause others.

Thank you for your post. I think there is a thin line sometimes on what is hard training, and what is abusive behavior. Things that I thought may have been abusive turned out later to be actually a gift that was given to very few. There is also the boot camp theory of having to free people of the preconceptions before building them up. But somehow I don't think you are really talking about those issues.

 

[mastercole]

I think in the context of religious cults, the cult is usually a breakaway group from a mainstream religion, where the leader sets himself up as some sort of prophet or messiah. The messiah rejects the teachings of the mainstream and instead probably spends an inordinate amount of time explaining or convincing members or potential members why the mainstream group is wrong, flawed, corrupt, misguided, whatever. They take control and radically change the teachings of the mainstream group from which they came, and make their own ceremonies, certificates, and that sort of thing, saying this is "better".

I think a lot of break off groups from taekwondo and hapkido have leaders that fall into this category, why the kukkiwon or the kha groups are bad, you don't need their certification, I'll give you mine with my signature on it instead, they are sport we are real martial arts, etc. I think the isolation from the mainstream and the extreme criticism of the mainstream is what sets the martial arts cult types from the rest. This is by the way, the anti thesis of the way that korean martial arts have developed, with a flexible tolerant philosophy, the great freedom that practitioners have to sculpt the art to their own interests, tastes and abilities, as well as the general feeling of inclusion which is the hallmark of both hapkido and taekwondo.

Negative cultish behavior can certainly spin out of control.

I have several Mormon students. Our main dojang is in Chardon, Ohio, right next to Kirtland, Ohio, which is the root of the Mormon religion. Over the holidays one one of these students was a guest at my home. We ended up talking a bit about Jeffery Lundgren a convicted mass murderer. He was a Mormon Temple tour guide living at the Temple. He did this very thing and developed a small cult following.

This student told me that Lundgren, among other false claims, put a lot of effort in attacking the main group, pointing out all their mistakes and constantly stating they were corrupt and that the main Mormon Church was on the verge of collapse and members would be turning away from the main Church in droves looking for a new leader to follow, Lundgren. He convinced his followers of all this. (good thing they did not have internet discussion boards back then, or he could have had even more followers) Later when members realized that he was a fraud, he called members into a barn on Chardon Rd, right down the road from my dojang, and executed them all, burying in the dirt floor of the barn.

He was executed for the mass murders, here in Ohio in 2006.

 

[shesulsa]

Thank you for your post. I think there is a thin line sometimes on what is hard training, and what is abusive behavior. Things that I thought may have been abusive turned out later to be actually a gift that was given to very few. There is also the boot camp theory of having to free people of the preconceptions before building them up. But somehow I don't think you are really talking about those issues.

You would be correct.