reletionship between instructor and student

[bribrius]

Some relationships require a certain amount of personal detachment to work best. Are we 'best friends forever' with our doctors, lawyers, or even our pastors? How about our direct reports at work?

I submit that sometimes our professional roles require some hard truths to be said, and it is difficult to do this if just last Saturday night we were hanging out together at each other's homes and drinking a few beers.

SOME people can make it work. Not everyone is that mature or able to isolate their personal life from some other environment like work or practice at the dojo.

It is not aping Asian culture to want to maintain a certain separation from one's students in order to serve them better.

thankyou. From somone that has paid for their instruction and is now paying for their childs instruction. I don't like the idea of paying for a time to socialize. Making friends, great. But that isn't what is being paid for. In fact students that socialize and interrupt other students learning and progress i would suggest they not be allowed to return. Equally the same for interrupting parents. Same with assistant instructors that cross that line and could disrupt instruction.

Coming from a teacher i once had when addressing people socializing- "You or someone pays for you to be here, now is not the time." I was under the impression much of the formality was to both teach discipline and respect but also maintain order so that the students can progress and the class can progress. Without organization i don't see how the time can be used efficiently because of constant distractions and a lack of seriousness. My kids can play with their friends in the back yard or in other activity like girlscouts/boyscouts or kids club, they dont need to make friends and play in their ma class.

when you walk into the school and bow leaving the rest of it outside is something i think could be important.

each has their reasons and preferences however, this is just mine.

 

[dancingalone]

I think my instructor can be harder on me (or his other students that are his friends) than other students because we are close friends and we expect that level of criticism. I don't think a student-instructor relationship is analogous to a father-son relationship, particularly when both the student and instructor are adults.

Depends on the martial art. There is definitely an elder/junior connection in some arts. I would throw karate and taekwondo into that group.

Familiarity breeds contempt. It takes a very mature person to put aside his personal relationships to just learn 'in the moment'. In our personal lives we often find ourselves tuning out a person - maybe as a young adult we think 'oh, it's just Dad ranting again' when Dad is trying to impart some life lessons he thinks is very important for his son to learn. And we have often discussed here on MT how difficult it is for a parent to teach his child MA personally.

If it works for you (figuratively) to be friends with your instructors and students, then great. On the other hand, there is ample opinion on the other side in various fields (teaching, medicine, therapy, etc) that holds the opposite view. I think there's some weight to ponder there.

 

[Tez3]

Depends on the martial art. There is definitely an elder/junior connection in some arts. I would throw karate and taekwondo into that group.

Familiarity breeds contempt. It takes a very mature person to put aside his personal relationships to just learn 'in the moment'. In our personal lives we often find ourselves tuning out a person - maybe as a young adult we think 'oh, it's just Dad ranting again' when Dad is trying to impart some life lessons he thinks is very important for his son to learn. And we have often discussed here on MT how difficult it is for a parent to teach his child MA personally.

If it works for you (figuratively) to be friends with your instructors and students, then great. On the other hand, there is ample opinion on the other side in various fields (teaching, medicine, therapy, etc) that holds the opposite view. I think there's some weight to ponder there.

Familiarity breeds.

It's a sport, a hobby, a pastime, hardly on par with medicine, teaching or therapy.

It's something most people do for a couple of hours a week and the odd weekend, they work hard at it, love it, enjoy it but that's all it is to most people. If they were full time students in a full time dojo it would be different and it wouldn't come out as pompous when people say there should be separation between students and their instructors.

My first karate instructor was more than half my age, he taught me karate as he should. It wasn't life skills, spirituality etc it was fighting and self defence. My current instructor is younger than me, he teaches me even better fighting and self defence. To be honest I don't know any martial artist that wants anything other than learning the martial art from their class, they appreciate and enjoy the respect, politieness and sportsmanship but that isn't unique to martial arts. the friendship element is a big part of it for many too, as Seasoned put it so well.

Parents find it difficult to teach kids anything, its not just martial arts, it's any sport and driving a car!

 

[dancingalone]

It's a sport, a hobby, a pastime, hardly on par with medicine, teaching or therapy.

It's something most people do for a couple of hours a week and the odd weekend, they work hard at it, love it, enjoy it but that's all it is to most people. If they were full time students in a full time dojo it would be different and it wouldn't come out as pompous when people say there should be separation between students and their instructors.

To you, it may be. I trained martial arts full time for over 10 years of my early adulthood, traveling to gain the best teachers I could. I had no job in those days and I took my endeavor seriously. These days I still train or teach over 15 hours a week and I would do more if I could. Martial arts is no mere hobby to me. I take it every bit as important, worthy of time and dedication, as my professional career in which I earn my living.

And I do not know why you feel the need to call others who disagree with your view point 'pompous'. Can you not accept that other people might have a position contrary to yours yet still be equally valid? Why the insulting language? ('Aping' is another word with a negative connotation to it.)

Parents find it difficult to teach kids anything, its not just martial arts, it's any sport and driving a car!

Parents and friends both. As I said above, it is far easier to be friends with one's students. It takes rather more sacrifice and discipline to consciously do the 'non-fun' things to hopefully be a better teacher.

 

[Master Dan]

As a master Instructor there has to be by that time intuition developed to do what is needed and what is right. I hear many seminars related to only the business of tkd and don't do this or that but in many cases you may be the only role model or decent example of a good or normal person in a developing students life. One thing my master taught me is that you must not play favorites you must be fair and equal rules with all. I would put it to many that Money has just as big as effect on many teachers judgmetn as personal relationships? I believe that a master owes his life to be put in harms way for his students if needed but that also requires a commitment from the student as well. My students and I eat, hunt, fish, hike, prospect for gold, do science projects and do other art forms plus education because that is the purpose of tkd the science of learning and living not just punches and kicks. My legacy is not a state, national or international sport fighter but a person who is happy can defend themselves and that means self sufficient in family and finances. Master Dan

 

[Blindside]

Depends on the martial art. There is definitely an elder/junior connection in some arts. I would throw karate and taekwondo into that group.

Familiarity breeds contempt. It takes a very mature person to put aside his personal relationships to just learn 'in the moment'. In our personal lives we often find ourselves tuning out a person - maybe as a young adult we think 'oh, it's just Dad ranting again' when Dad is trying to impart some life lessons he thinks is very important for his son to learn. And we have often discussed here on MT how difficult it is for a parent to teach his child MA personally.

If it works for you (figuratively) to be friends with your instructors and students, then great. On the other hand, there is ample opinion on the other side in various fields (teaching, medicine, therapy, etc) that holds the opposite view. I think there's some weight to ponder there.

Just because it was taught that way in Japan or Korea doesn't mean it needs to be taught the same way here.

I think the "head instructor" format works very well with kids, it provides a structure and discipline to the learning process, just as I think the whole belt thing is a useful tool for those groups as well. But for adults? Not so much. I don't teach kids, the average age of my student is in their mid-thirties, eighty percent of them have had some previous training, half of them are instructor ranked in other arts, two of them have more time in the arts than I do. They are looking for a guide in the art(s) that I teach, not some aloof sensei. They largely know how to learn, how to take criticism, and they set examples of how to be a student for the few martial newbies that show up in my classes.

Lamont

 

[dancingalone]

Just because it was taught that way in Japan or Korea doesn't mean it needs to be taught the same way here.

Never said it had to be. I'm only offering an explanation as to why some might prefer to be more reserved with their students. And the reverse of your statement is just as valid: why not teach an Asian martial art with some trappings of Asian culture if you can?

There is no right or wrong answer with this.

I think the "head instructor" format works very well with kids, it provides a structure and discipline to the learning process, just as I think the whole belt thing is a useful tool for those groups as well. But for adults? Not so much. I don't teach kids, the average age of my student is in their mid-thirties, eighty percent of them have had some previous training, half of them are instructor ranked in other arts, two of them have more time in the arts than I do. They are looking for a guide in the art(s) that I teach, not some aloof sensei. They largely know how to learn, how to take criticism, and they set examples of how to be a student for the few martial newbies that show up in my classes.

Whatever works for you. Not sure how Filipino systems are, but you also do American kenpo, correct? I believe Mr. Parker intentionally sought to remove Asian terminology and mores when he designed his system. It makes sense that you might share some of the same views.

I don't see how that changes anything for those who feel differently however, even without weighing in with the cultural aspect. I don't have the luxury of being a guide as you do. While the majority of my serious students are adults, none of them frankly were anywhere near as capable as I am when they started training with me. Thus, I AM their teacher in every meaning of the word.

I am repeating myself, but sometimes an instructor is also a coach, a motivator. And sometimes, that means using negative reinforcement tools like giving your students a good chewing out. Sometimes to instill toughness in your students, maybe even a bit of a physical lesson is needed from time to time, whether through demonstration (I can do it, so can you) or other means. I don't mean to sound 'pompous' or tyrannical, but IMO this is part of being a good teacher: it is not all fun and roses, and I would find it difficult myself to be able to use all of these measures with people I am on good social terms with.

 

[Drac]

OK, so I know a few here are instructors and many are long time martial arts practitioners. Is it common for instructors and students to be friends outside of the dojang? Do most instructors feel there needs to be a degree of separation?

My Instructor is a longtime friend..

 

[Blindside]

There is no right or wrong answer with this.

Of course there isn't, and it isn't just a style thing, though certainly the FMA tend to be far less regimented. One of my kenpo instructors maintains a very distant relationship with his students, you can feel it in the class, you come in train, go home, there is no sense of family. My other kenpo instructor is the instructor in class and a good friend to many of his senior students outside of class. We have talked about this very issue, about how he almost quit instructing because of personal issues that conflicted between those "friend" and "instructor" roles. But, even with those experiences he wouldn't have it any other way, I wouldn't either.

 

[dancingalone]

My other kenpo instructor is the instructor in class and a good friend to many of his senior students outside of class. We have talked about this very issue, about how he almost quit instructing because of personal issues that conflicted between those "friend" and "instructor" roles. But, even with those experiences he wouldn't have it any other way, I wouldn't either.

Fit is important. Different people want different things from their instructors. We should definitely train where we are comfortable with the atmosphere and the type of instruction.

I do participate in a training group with other martial artists and instructors from a variety of backgrounds. It's run as more of a collaborative session than an imparting of lessons, although I certainly learn something each time we meet. This type of organization, essentially a sharing of equals, works because that is what the members need. On the other hand, it probably would not translate well to my church TKD class where the students, many whom are minors, are all mostly new to martial arts and they are looking for a experience complete with drill leaders and role models.

 

[WC_lun]

To those of you that enjoy the ultra-polite classes with the bowing and sirs, could explain why you enjoy that? I've been in schools like that and have seen some people respond very well in that type of class. Me personally, I find it sometimes gets in the way of just learning. Perhaps it is because I have seen the formality thing taken too far. One of the things I enjoy the most about the school I belong too is that we do joke around a bit even with the head instructor, but we are still very focused on the Wing Chun. There is a lot of respect between all the students and the instructor, but it isn't the repsect of the titles or sash colors, but for the persons.

 

[dancingalone]

To those of you that enjoy the ultra-polite classes with the bowing and sirs, could explain why you enjoy that?

You probably need to define how much bowing and 'sirring' is going on. I have my classes bow in at the beginning and end of class. You also bow to your partner at the beginning and end of any partner work. Students call me Sensei or Sabum or Sir or Mister So and So. I do not believe this to be excessive bowing nor sirring. Is it in your book?

 

[WC_lun]

You probably need to define how much bowing and 'sirring' is going on. I have my classes bow in at the beginning and end of class. You also bow to your partner at the beginning and end of any partner work. Students call me Sensei or Sabum or Sir or Mister So and So. I do not believe this to be excessive bowing nor sirring. Is it in your book?

For my taste, it does seem a bit much. Please understand, I'm not critisizing. If it works for you, that's great. Bowing at the beginning and end of class, I understand that. Everything in between, just seems a tad too formal for my taste and wonder what the draw of the formality would be.

 

[bluewaveschool]

You probably need to define how much bowing and 'sirring' is going on. I have my classes bow in at the beginning and end of class. You also bow to your partner at the beginning and end of any partner work. Students call me Sensei or Sabum or Sir or Mister So and So. I do not believe this to be excessive bowing nor sirring. Is it in your book?

Drop the 'sir' and you have my class.

 

[dancingalone]

For my taste, it does seem a bit much. Please understand, I'm not critisizing. If it works for you, that's great. Bowing at the beginning and end of class, I understand that. Everything in between, just seems a tad too formal for my taste and wonder what the draw of the formality would be.

It's just part of the ritual. Sometimes rituals do have practical purposes - perhaps they help trigger a state of mind that you are about to get to work, whether it is sparring or a collaborative drill with your partner. And if it doesn't, well there's plenty within martial arts that don't always seem practical. White uniforms are one example when black ones would perhaps be more utilitarian.

I do think style comes into play here. What I described is rather common in TKD and karate classes. In fact, I would be somewhat surprised if someone told me they took a 'traditional' TKD or karate class yet did not have the partner bowing. I also study aikido and if anything manners are even more formal there.

It is fine if you don't like it. I certainly am not offended.

 

[dancingalone]

Drop the 'sir' and you have my class.

I actually consider 'Sir' to be less formal (and polite) among the other options. It's rather generic and doesn't require the intimacy of calling you 'teacher' or using your own correct name.

But it is certainly more polite than 'Hey, You!'.

 

[StudentCarl]

Sir or ma'am is different from how we address people on the street, but that's part of the formality of the dojang, IMO.

We deal in potentially dangerous techniques, so additional discipline and attention are appropriate. Are they essential? Perhaps not, but I do think they encourage a level of courtesy too often absent. There was a long thread awhile back on formality in the dojang that relates to this topic.

I think this difference is especially important with young people, as the language and discipline reinforces the idea that taekwondo is not a toy, whose techniques you take out on the playground.

Carl

 

[seasoned]

Seasoned, I would argue that this is a natural consequence of classmates training hard together and it should indeed be appreciated and even encouraged. However, I am not so sure it should be the case with sensei and their students and sometimes even sempai and kohai if their ages and skill levels are far apart. The separation helps the senior person to instruct their juniors.

As a Sensei with many years of training, I have long standing students of whom, are some of my best friends. Remember, a Sensei becomes ageless, and a students skill level is enhanced with time.

 

[dancingalone]

As a Sensei with many years of training, I have long standing students of whom, are some of my best friends. Remember, a Sensei becomes ageless, and a students skill level is enhanced with time.

How long did it take for you to become friends? Immediately? 1 year, 2 years? As I related above, I have a senior student who I now consider a trusted friend, but I did not permit myself to befriend him until well after he had achieved a good level of excellence himself.

 

[WC_lun]

Sir or ma'am is different from how we address people on the street, but that's part of the formality of the dojang, IMO.

We deal in potentially dangerous techniques, so additional discipline and attention are appropriate. Are they essential? Perhaps not, but I do think they encourage a level of courtesy too often absent. There was a long thread awhile back on formality in the dojang that relates to this topic.

I think this difference is especially important with young people, as the language and discipline reinforces the idea that taekwondo is not a toy, whose techniques you take out on the playground.

Carl

I understand what you are saying, but in my opinion, that courtesy and respect are present without the formality. Everyone in the school respects one another and is courtious, not because it is some school rule, but because that is the natural inclination of each student. There have been peple come in who don't show those things, but they never last very long because the lessons an ego that won't repsct others tends not to take very much bruising. One of our phylosophies of teaching is that to know it, you must experience it. After you experience what we teach, there is no doubt left about how serious what we do can be. It all play...serious play