reletionship between instructor and student

[Manny]

I my dojang the relationship amoung Sambonim and studests is something like a Father and Son relationship, inside the dojang and outside the dojang. We treat our sambonim with respect and he treat us with all the respect too. We are not pals or budies, we are master and pupil and these does not detract the relationship a bit.

Relationship amoung students is very respectfull too, we are like brothers, you know older and yournger brothers.

The dojang must be a quiet and respectful place of harmony, is a training hall a school not a cofee shop or place for gosip.

In the kenpo dojo I go, I am the only person who treat the sensei (he is younger then me) the same way I treat my sambonim, the rest of the guys (students) treat the sensei as their equal, lyke budies I just can't. Sensei thera all the students like budies and he treats me diferent with the same respect I treat him.

Manny

 

[Tez3]

We definitely don't do the 'master' thing, we do the 'sensible adult' thing.

We don't doing bowing,we call each other by first names and teach each other. We have respect for everyone who trains with us and don't pretend we are Jedi with their apprentices. We train fighters and people who can defend themselves if attacked, we don't pander to egos by calling the instructors master. It's a place to learn how to use martial arts not a temple or church, there's no need for reverent silence when the chief instructor is there, ours frankly would prefer a pint of Fosters (no taste that man) in the pub afterwards. We don't do 'buddy buddy' in the club, we do 'fighters training'.

 

[StudentCarl]

Tez3, from your last post I see where you're coming from. From my world I see your activity more as a training group than the more formal traditional martial arts school structure. In a training group there is recognition of greater and lesser skills, but the atmosphere is informal and everyone is colleagues. I think that is fine, but shouldn't take away from the structure of a formal system--they're just different. In a more formalized structure, it's important to have some boundaries because the power is not equal.

Carl

 

[Tez3]

Tez3, from your last post I see where you're coming from. From my world I see your activity more as a training group than the more formal traditional martial arts school structure. In a training group there is recognition of greater and lesser skills, but the atmosphere is informal and everyone is colleagues. I think that is fine, but shouldn't take away from the structure of a formal system--they're just different. In a more formalized structure, it's important to have some boundaries because the power is not equal.

Carl

We are a martial arts club and I do run a 'traditional' class but on my travels around the country visiting other clubs and training in seminars with others I find very few buy into this 'mastership' stuff. Even the so called very traditional clubs don't behave overly formally. The TKD club I visit has a bow in at the beginning and the end, are respectful etc but don't go overborad with this master/grasshopper stuff. I train 'formally' if you like with 5th and 6th Dans in other places and they don't have this stiff, line in the sand stuff. We train seriously then go down the pub.

We aren't a training group, we have instructors, students and structure but because we are adults we don't pretend this is an Eastern mystical temple and we are training Shaolin monks. We don't need to draw boundaries to separate us from them, our students are adults and young men, they behave every bit as well as you'd expect a 'formal' school to. the respect for the instructors is there because of what we can do, we don't have to make them keep bowing and scraping and calling us master or sensei, the respect for the students is there too because we know they try their best, put everything into their training and appreciate their training partners.
Only poor instructors to my mind insist on this separation of students and instructors to such an extent they would refuse to be friends with their students, it's egotism at it's worst. there's no humility in that and after all we are all students, just some are further along the road than others.

 

[Carol]

We are a martial arts club and I do run a 'traditional' class but on my travels around the country visiting other clubs and training in seminars with others I find very few buy into this 'mastership' stuff. Even the so called very traditional clubs don't behave overly formally. The TKD club I visit has a bow in at the beginning and the end, are respectful etc but don't go overborad with this master/grasshopper stuff. I train 'formally' if you like with 5th and 6th Dans in other places and they don't have this stiff, line in the sand stuff. We train seriously then go down the pub.

We aren't a training group, we have instructors, students and structure but because we are adults we don't pretend this is an Eastern mystical temple and we are training Shaolin monks. We don't need to draw boundaries to separate us from them, our students are adults and young men, they behave every bit as well as you'd expect a 'formal' school to. the respect for the instructors is there because of what we can do, we don't have to make them keep bowing and scraping and calling us master or sensei, the respect for the students is there too because we know they try their best, put everything into their training and appreciate their training partners.
Only poor instructors to my mind insist on this separation of students and instructors to such an extent they would refuse to be friends with their students, it's egotism at it's worst. there's no humility in that and after all we are all students, just some are further along the road than others.

But too casual, and you may not properly groom the student, or the student's parents, for committing to a 12-36 month contract. The goal is to get the student signed on the bottom line.

 

[WC_lun]

We are pretty relaxed in the school. We normally call each other by our first names and rarely bow to each other. We take what we do seriously, but also realize we aren't training to go to war in a week. Everyone shows respect to each other, not because of anyone's rank, but because everyone in the school are good people and they also have common sense. The common sense part being that showing disrespect to a martial artist that actually knows how to fight is asking for injury. We aren't set up on a confuscist model and no one has egoes to stroke, which if it wasn't for the subject material would make for a very laid back class.

Having said all that, I think it is wise to remember that when you agree to teach someone and they pay tuition, they are your customer. Yes, you can be friends with your customers, but there are still lines that you should be very wary about crossing. Cross some lines and there is no going back. It can negatively effect your relationships with other students...who are also paying customers.

 

[Stac3y]

In class, we bow, and call each other Mr. and Ms/Miss/Mrs. No one is called "Master;" and those of us who want to be friends outside the classroom are friends. Some are close friends; some are friendly acquaintances. Our organization is a club--while there is a hierarchy, we all treat each other with respect. If you can't respect your friends, who can you respect, after all?

 

[Tez3]

We are pretty relaxed in the school. We normally call each other by our first names and rarely bow to each other. We take what we do seriously, but also realize we aren't training to go to war in a week. Everyone shows respect to each other, not because of anyone's rank, but because everyone in the school are good people and they also have common sense. The common sense part being that showing disrespect to a martial artist that actually knows how to fight is asking for injury. We aren't set up on a confuscist model and no one has egoes to stroke, which if it wasn't for the subject material would make for a very laid back class.

Having said all that, I think it is wise to remember that when you agree to teach someone and they pay tuition, they are your customer. Yes, you can be friends with your customers, but there are still lines that you should be very wary about crossing. Cross some lines and there is no going back. It can negatively effect your relationships with other students...who are also paying customers.

Exactly!

We don't have customers though, the subs we pay go into the club for equipment, insurances, costs, subsidising uniforms and kit etc, no one gets paid and everyone knows what money comes in and what goes out and where, we do all the same try to make it good value for money. Our instructor doesn't take any money out of any purse our fighters get either, it's all theirs. As instructors we carry the cost of our own insurance (much dearer than students), travelling costs, kits and stuff like that. I will pay for stuff for the kids class too if we don't have enough in the kitty.

 

[bribrius]

interesting. I have never been to a school where you could speak with anything less formal than sir. And even my kids tkd school,liberal by my standards, there is still no talking allowed and formal address required, and yes, you need to bow.

 

[Manny]

My dojang is atradional one not a training center (like my kenpo dojo), I really apreciate and love we have lots of respect for each other and we had traditions too.

Myself foe example, entering the dojang I bow and say good evening to my sambonim and his wife (also a sambonim) no mather they are on the mat or in the office, this is my way of say Hellow teachers I am here to take the class. The sambonims say to mee good evening and please come in.

I say good evening to any one in the waiting hall, mothers,fathers,children,students,etc.

Before I get inside the locker room I bow to the training room (mat) where the flags are, the sambonim is (if he is teaching) and to the students.

Before entering the mat I ask permition to the sambonim and again I bow, we do meditation and then bow to the flags and the sambonim at the begining and in the end.

Every time I must leave or enter the mat I have to bow. When I am leaving the dojang I say good night and bow.

Maybe too much bows and formality but this is the way I think it should be.

We call our techers sambonims and the sambonims call ur for our first or last name but using the word mister or madam before the name.

I am the oldest men afther the sambonim he calls me always Don Manuel, Don is a word that it's a more respectful word than señor (mister) and everyone one in the dojang calls me Don Manuel this reflects a lot of respect cause the word Don is more higher than mister.

We also call our sambonim Profesor (Teacher).

The dojang or training hall is a place full of respect,harmony,martiality and loyalty.... but not a Shaolin Temple.

Just my two cents.

manny

 

[jks9199]

There's a difference between respecting someone, and showing them the trappings of respect. I consider my teacher a friend and advisor -- but I call him "Joe", and have shared more than few meals with him. I address our chief instructor by his earned academic title, or as "sir" because I respect him -- but I also consider him as a friend.

I've had students and classmates become close friends. I've had others who never made that transition... That's just how it goes.

 

[bluewaveschool]

The relationships I've always had have grown closer based on rank. By the time we got to BB, our instructor invited us over to his house. I hung out with his daughter sometimes (she was 3rd dan and would have knocked me out if i had tried anything). The only students I've grown close to, are the ones that have had the commitment to stick it out. They teach with me now, except one that is in college, and I'm going down to see him next weekend. I do have two adult students that are friends with one of my BB, we might all have a cookout because we all have kids and the kids playing together gives us all a break.

 

[Tez3]

Mpst of us here live in Western countries and live by Western mores so why are we so keen to ape a philosophy from the East? Especially as we would only do it for a couple of hours a week or however long we train, it doesn't carry over into the rest of our lives, we don't bow to the boss or the shop keeper ( remembering to do bows of different height for each) we don't follow Eastern religions nor do we keep the strict social code so why so keen to do it in martial arts and lose the potential friendship of others among other things?

In Japan, China, Korea etc the way they behave when training reflects their whole lives, it's something we don't have here so trying to recreate a tiny bit of it out of context in the dojo is false. It's like role playing Star Wars and us pretending to be Jedis and their apprentices. The Japanese bow to each other outside the dojo, its their custom to do so, carrying it into martial arts is natural as is the carrying of their philosophy into martial arts. Bowing when you come in and out of the training area, bowing to the instrcutor and to your training partner and/or opponent is enough. Bow to your own flag if you must though a salute would probably be more technically correct (bracing up as we say in the military even more correct), why are you bowing to other countries flags just because the founder of your style came from there?

Everyone should be polite, far more than they are but that's a whole different thread lol, as many posters have said the respect is there without the Eastern trappings, you can't make it happen with loads of bowing and calling everyone by titles.

Training with people, teaching them and training under them create bonds which can be unbreakable, To suffocate and kill potential friendships as well as creativity, genuine love for the martial under under a pile of so called 'etiquette' seems to me to be ridiculous. I don't see either why dojos are suppose to be 'serene' places, I doubt very much they are in Japan, look at what you are learning! I suspect in Japan they are serious, hard working and concentrating hard on what they are doing....just like us!

Okay rant stand easy chaps

 

[seasoned]

Some of my best friends came out of my martial arts training. It is a combination of training together, enduing challenges, reveling in each others triumphs. There is a bond and camaraderie, not seen in our everyday lives.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Mpst of us here live in Western countries and live by Western mores so why are we so keen to ape a philosophy from the East? Especially as we would only do it for a couple of hours a week or however long we train, it doesn't carry over into the rest of our lives, we don't bow to the boss or the shop keeper ( remembering to do bows of different height for each) we don't follow Eastern religions nor do we keep the strict social code so why so keen to do it in martial arts and lose the potential friendship of others among other things?<<<




In Japan, China, Korea etc the way they behave when training reflects their whole lives, it's something we don't have here so trying to recreate a tiny bit of it out of context in the dojo is false.<<<





Bow to your own flag if you must though a salute would probably be more technically correct (bracing up as we say in the military even more correct), why are you bowing to other countries flags just because the founder of your style came from there? <<<


Everyone should be polite, far more than they are but that's a whole different thread lol, as many posters have said the respect is there without the Eastern trappings, you can't make it happen with loads of bowing and calling everyone by titles.<<<

You can't make anything happen. You can only use it as a teaching vehicle.

Because the MA for some is more like a military system than buying a cookie. I tell my students that they don't have enough money to buy what I am providing

Or perhaps it is sorely lacking elsewhere (outside the Military) aand badly needed in most societies vis a vis courtesy , integrity and other values.

we do not bow to any other flag.

 

[dancingalone]

Some relationships require a certain amount of personal detachment to work best. Are we 'best friends forever' with our doctors, lawyers, or even our pastors? How about our direct reports at work?

I submit that sometimes our professional roles require some hard truths to be said, and it is difficult to do this if just last Saturday night we were hanging out together at each other's homes and drinking a few beers.

SOME people can make it work. Not everyone is that mature or able to isolate their personal life from some other environment like work or practice at the dojo.

It is not aping Asian culture to want to maintain a certain separation from one's students in order to serve them better.

 

[Tez3]

Some of you may be professional instructors, we aren't, we are only that bit further along the road of learning than the students. We aren't paid to teach nor do the students pay to learn, the subs we pay cover the cost of our kit and things like that. There simply isn't the doctor, lawyer type relationship involved in our case and of many martial artists I know. My JKD class isn't like that either and there I'm a complete beginner.


As most of our students are military there is little need to have a military system in place in martial arts but again I've seen very few civvy clubs who take a military slant on their training.

Seasoned, I love your post, it's exactly how I see training and my fellow martial artists. They are very special people to me and the loss of one of them diminishes us all.

 

[dancingalone]

Some of you may be professional instructors, we aren't, we are only that bit further along the road of learning than the students. We aren't paid to teach nor do the students pay to learn, the subs we pay cover the cost of our kit and things like that. There simply isn't the doctor, lawyer type relationship involved in our case and of many martial artists I know. My JKD class isn't like that either and there I'm a complete beginner.

I charge my serious karate students $25 a month. It goes into a fund to buy mats and other training equipment as needed, rather than into my pockets. I teach TKD for free at my church.

Money doesn't have to enter the picture for a teacher to want to maintain a 'professional' relationship with his students. Sometimes my students need me to be a little hard with them whether with words or in my instruction, so I maintain my distance so I can help them in this way. It's easy enough to be buddy, buddy - this requires no sacrifice at all from the teacher. Same with parenting. It's a lot easier for me to let my little boy eat all the candy he can and watch all the tv he wants. I don't because I know there are better alternatives for him. It is the same with martial arts instruction.

 

[dancingalone]

Some of my best friends came out of my martial arts training. It is a combination of training together, enduing challenges, reveling in each others triumphs. There is a bond and camaraderie, not seen in our everyday lives.

Seasoned, I would argue that this is a natural consequence of classmates training hard together and it should indeed be appreciated and even encouraged. However, I am not so sure it should be the case with sensei and their students and sometimes even sempai and kohai if their ages and skill levels are far apart. The separation helps the senior person to instruct their juniors.

 

[Blindside]

Money doesn't have to enter the picture for a teacher to want to maintain a 'professional' relationship with his students. Sometimes my students need me to be a little hard with them whether with words or in my instruction, so I maintain my distance so I can help them in this way. It's easy enough to be buddy, buddy and requires no sacrifice at all from the teacher. Same with parenting. It's a lot easier for me to let my little boy eat all the candy he can and watch all the tv he wants. I don't because I know there are better alternatives for him. It is the same with martial arts instruction.

I think my instructor can be harder on me (or his other students that are his friends) than other students because we are close friends and we expect that level of criticism. I don't think a student-instructor relationship is analogous to a father-son relationship, particularly when both the student and instructor are adults.