reletionship between instructor and student

[dancingalone]

I understand what you are saying, but in my opinion, that courtesy and respect are present without the formality. Everyone in the school respects one another and is courtious, not because it is some school rule, but because that is the natural inclination of each student. There have been peple come in who don't show those things, but they never last very long because the lessons an ego that won't repsct others tends not to take very much bruising. One of our phylosophies of teaching is that to know it, you must experience it. After you experience what we teach, there is no doubt left about how serious what we do can be. It all play...serious play

Again, there is no right or wrong way here. Go with whatever fits your temperament.

The added formality is useful in large classes or when the number of children in the class is high. It helps as another layer of organization and 'control' for the teacher. If your classes are 1-6 adults or so, you probably can dispense with a lot of it.

 

[seasoned]

Some of my best friends came out of my martial arts training. It is a combination of training together, enduing challenges, reveling in each others triumphs. There is a bond and camaraderie, not seen in our everyday lives.

As a martial Artist, this specks for itself.

As a Sensei with many years of training, I have long standing students of whom, are some of my best friends. Remember, a Sensei becomes ageless, and a students skill level is enhanced with time.

Ditto.

How long did it take for you to become friends? Immediately? 1 year, 2 years? As I related above, I have a senior student who I now consider a trusted friend, but I did not permit myself to befriend him until well after he had achieved a good level of excellence himself.

Key word is trust, many years. Martial Arts are not geared toward making friends, but a dojo should indeed be friendly. I don't believe a Sensei should make it a point to befriend his students, but, he should be approachable. I believe there is a point in time, in the higher Dan ranks that a certain bond has taken place that lends itself to friendships.

 

[WC_lun]

Again, there is no right or wrong way here. Go with whatever fits your temperament.

The added formality is useful in large classes or when the number of children in the class is high. It helps as another layer of organization and 'control' for the teacher. If your classes are 1-6 adults or so, you probably can dispense with a lot of it.

I didn't think about the children thing. It would indeed make sense to have the discipline of a very formal class if a lot of children are attending.

 

[Tez3]

This may sound odd but the thing our childrens class needs more than anything else is security. We aren't formal in the childrens class, they call us by our first names, they bow at the start and the beginning and to each other if they spar but the overwelming thing they need is security and knowing we are there for them. Discipline is easy to maintain twth them, it just tkaes a look from me usually to get tham back in line, I do the talking to bit if it needs it.

We aren't friends as such with the children but they do look at us and hopefully see more than just people who take them for martial arts. We end up talking often when something comes up as a result of a techniques we are doing.

I do realise that our situation is different from most places, and certainly very different from the commerical belt factories. At the end of the month the dynamic in the club will change when the Brigade is back from deployment. The strain, worry and fear that haunts everyone will be over for eighteen months or so when it all starts again. However their is a period of adjustment for the families so we still need to be that constant in the childrens lives. We are only a very small cog in a larger machine but we hope we do our bit.

 

[ETinCYQX]

My current instructor is the first one I have ever had that I have any social interaction with. Part of that is that Mr. Lee is my first instructor as an adult, I'm sure, but we socialize quite often outside of the dojang. However, more often than not I refer to him as "Sir" or "Mr. Lee".

It certainly changes the dynamic in classes, and I won't comment on "better" or "worse". It is different, and I appreciate the opportunity to get to know my instructor outside of the dojang.

My Judo sensei, however, is a close friend of my parents and has known me for my entire life. That can be a little odd at times, but IMO one needs to seperate "Sensei" from "Chris", if you know what I mean. Inside and outside the class are two different things.

 

[Ken Morgan]

One needs to be able to turn it on and off.

I consider my Sensei to be my friend and my instructor. He lives a two minutes walk from my place, during my dry spells when I can’t get to practice, I pop over to his place and see how he’s doing. He invites us to his cottage whenever we want, just ask for the key and go, for as long as you would like.

We are all adults, ranging anywhere from 18 to 65, so act like an adult.

No matter how easy going we can be in class, in class he is still the boss. If you don’t like it, leave. Away from the dojo, at other clubs, at seminars or at gradings we represent him and the club, so we had better act correctly or we will hear about it.

 

[BloodMoney]

We only use first names, sometimes there might be an 'instructor' in front of it (ie: Instructor John) but even that we have done away with largely.

Out of habit we all often call the head of our school "Master Kevin" but in talking with him I would just call him Kevin. I would consider him a friend, we have hung out socially before and he often holds BBQ's at his house for all students etc. As one of my instructors once put it "we are kung fu brothers" and there is definitely a sense of that comradeship in our association. As we dont use ranks or belts everyone just knows whos more skilled and whos a beginner, its simple. You know whos your older brother and whos a junior to you, and everyone is shown the same respect regardless of 'rank'.

The only formality we have is to bow to each other at the end of class, but that goes for me too, I bow to all the students in respect and to thank them for training at my club, they bow in thanks for me taking the class.

 

[Twin Fist]

OK, so I know a few here are instructors and many are long time martial arts practitioners. Is it common for instructors and students to be friends outside of the dojang? Do most instructors feel there needs to be a degree of separation?

it is a BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD idea to try and be friends with your students.

you can make a friend your student, but you should NEVER make a student your friend.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I wouldn't make a white belt my friend, but I've become friends with those that have been able to stick with it for the long haul. I'm friends with all my current BB, I wasn't when they were beginners.

 

[StudentCarl]

This may sound odd but the thing our childrens class needs more than anything else is security.

To me, security comes from clear, positive expectations consistently applied, and patient instruction accompanied by praise. It's no different with kids than adults. If you don't feel some level of that, you won't stay. Credibility is earned.

Looking back at this thread, the common ground seems to be that you can be friends with long standing students who have the maturity to understand and work with two different roles in two different situations--student and friend.

It's also pretty clear than there are some people who you don't want as friends but will accept as students.

The line between the two is defined by the individual master, but mistakes can be damaging to your school. Each school I've visited takes on the personality of its master. How can it be otherwise?

 

[Tez3]

To me, security comes from clear, positive expectations consistently applied, and patient instruction accompanied by praise. It's no different with kids than adults. If you don't feel some level of that, you won't stay. Credibility is earned.

Looking back at this thread, the common ground seems to be that you can be friends with long standing students who have the maturity to understand and work with two different roles in two different situations--student and friend.

It's also pretty clear than there are some people who you don't want as friends but will accept as students.

The line between the two is defined by the individual master, but mistakes can be damaging to your school. Each school I've visited takes on the personality of its master. How can it be otherwise?

I don't think you understand the children I teach and why they need security at the moment.

 

[StudentCarl]

I don't think you understand the children I teach and why they need security at the moment.

I have read your posts over time, and can at least guess why your kids might have extra needs. I don't think that goes against what I'm saying. Kids look to adults to provide structure and meaning in what can be a confusing and scary world. Kids need orderliness, predictability, and boundaries. They also need high expectations, patient instruction, and encouragement to get 'em to shine. That doesn't mean you can't show them warmth and affection at all. They need lots of that too. At the other extreme, it's hard to get very far with a full class of kids if you're just their buddy--being a leader requires taking charge and getting some level of attention and obedience. As a teacher of special needs kids, I can tell you that both rapport and structure are essential. I suspect we're more in agreement than not. It sounds like you have a good feel for your kids, in which case they are lucky to have you.

Carl

 

[Tez3]

I have read your posts over time, and can at least guess why your kids might have extra needs. I don't think that goes against what I'm saying. Kids look to adults to provide structure and meaning in what can be a confusing and scary world. Kids need orderliness, predictability, and boundaries. They also need high expectations, patient instruction, and encouragement to get 'em to shine. That doesn't mean you can't show them warmth and affection at all. They need lots of that too. At the other extreme, it's hard to get very far with a full class of kids if you're just their buddy--being a leader requires taking charge and getting some level of attention and obedience. As a teacher of special needs kids, I can tell you that both rapport and structure are essential. I suspect we're more in agreement than not. It sounds like you have a good feel for your kids, in which case they are lucky to have you.

Carl

Thanks! the past few months have been very tough for most of us here, we just have a few more weeks until the end of November to go. We have kids ( and their families) who's nerves are shredded. What we have now are the recovering wounded back, it's quite unnerving to see to be honest.



I think a great amount of this instructor 'aura' of separateness is nonsense and often designed to enhance an intructor's ego rather than any good atmosphere within a class. I was watching a programme on Okinawan karate the other day and they certainly didn't have all the bowing and formality one would have expected plus they were all friends and neighbours outside the dojo. There's no reason not to be friends with people you want to be friends with just because you teach them martial arts a couple of hours a week, people manage friendships in other sports and pastimes, there's no reason for martial arts to be different. If you are an instructor and you are any good you'll be fine, if you are a lousy instructor I'm guessing you need that separateness and that 'don't talk to sensei unless he talks to you' thing going on. We are all people, we have multi layered relationships going on all the time, people are friends with bosses and employees, people from different backgrounds all the time. Egos and the trappings of the outside world are left at the dojo door so why wouldn't friendships work outside that door?

 

[WC_lun]

Thanks! the past few months have been very tough for most of us here, we just have a few more weeks until the end of November to go. We have kids ( and their families) who's nerves are shredded. What we have now are the recovering wounded back, it's quite unnerving to see to be honest.



I think a great amount of this instructor 'aura' of separateness is nonsense and often designed to enhance an intructor's ego rather than any good atmosphere within a class. I was watching a programme on Okinawan karate the other day and they certainly didn't have all the bowing and formality one would have expected plus they were all friends and neighbours outside the dojo. There's no reason not to be friends with people you want to be friends with just because you teach them martial arts a couple of hours a week, people manage friendships in other sports and pastimes, there's no reason for martial arts to be different. If you are an instructor and you are any good you'll be fine, if you are a lousy instructor I'm guessing you need that separateness and that 'don't talk to sensei unless he talks to you' thing going on. We are all people, we have multi layered relationships going on all the time, people are friends with bosses and employees, people from different backgrounds all the time. Egos and the trappings of the outside world are left at the dojo door so why wouldn't friendships work outside that door?

I agree that a lot of the seperatedness and formality in some schools is a direct result of the head instructor's ego and lack of real skill or teaching ability. I've actually seen this a lot, unfortunately.

I'm friendly, but not friends with new students. I need them to follow instruction and build a level of trust based upon martial arts and my instruction of it first. They pay to learn that and it can't be achieved if they are trying to be all buddy-buddy. After those things are learned, then true friendship can happen without the training being effected.

Too me it is the same as a teacher at a college befriending students. At the beginning of a semester it could be inappropriate. After some time has passed, more acceptable. Sexual relationships with current students are still a big no-no in my book though.

 

[dancingalone]

I think a great amount of this instructor 'aura' of separateness is nonsense and often designed to enhance an intructor's ego rather than any good atmosphere within a class. I was watching a programme on Okinawan karate the other day and they certainly didn't have all the bowing and formality one would have expected plus they were all friends and neighbours outside the dojo.

Methinks someone has never trained in an Okinawan karate dojo with Okinawan instructors. Some are relaxed, some are decidedly not.

Again, it is a mistake to generalize and try to make one's own prejudices apply to everyone else, especially based on watching a television program.

There's no reason not to be friends with people you want to be friends with just because you teach them martial arts a couple of hours a week, people manage friendships in other sports and pastimes, there's no reason for martial arts to be different.

Your opinion. It's only as as valid as that of anyone else, some who have disagreed and given sound reasons why.

If you are an instructor and you are any good you'll be fine, if you are a lousy instructor I'm guessing you need that separateness and that 'don't talk to sensei unless he talks to you' thing going on. We are all people, we have multi layered relationships going on all the time, people are friends with bosses and employees, people from different backgrounds all the time. Egos and the trappings of the outside world are left at the dojo door so why wouldn't friendships work outside that door?

More insulting language aimed at people who have different views?

 

[dortiz]

How funny,
In class the other night I randomly reverted to saying Ous! My teacher laughed sinced he too had taken Karate way back when. We both commented that coming from such a rigid environment its clearly drilled in to you. There are always exceptions but certainly not the karate that I was exposed to.

 

[StudentCarl]

I'm friendly, but not friends with new students. I need them to follow instruction and build a level of trust based upon martial arts and my instruction of it first. They pay to learn that and it can't be achieved if they are trying to be all buddy-buddy. After those things are learned, then true friendship can happen without the training being effected.

Well said.

 

[dancingalone]

How funny,
In class the other night I randomly reverted to saying Ous! My teacher laughed sinced he too had taken Karate way back when. We both commented that coming from such a rigid environment its clearly drilled in to you. There are always exceptions but certainly not the karate that I was exposed to.

What karate was that, Dave? Kyokushin? They love to shout 'Oss'!

 

[dortiz]

You are good! Yup : )

 

[Tez3]

Methinks someone has never trained in an Okinawan karate dojo with Okinawan instructors. Some are relaxed, some are decidedly not.

Again, it is a mistake to generalize and try to make one's own prejudices apply to everyone else, especially based on watching a television program.



Your opinion. It's only as as valid as that of anyone else, some who have disagreed and given sound reasons why.



More insulting language aimed at people who have different views?

Methinks my instructor has and has brought back the ethos he was taught there.


Insulting language? what the hell are you on about man? You don't have to like my opinions but don't read insult all the time, thats just boring. There are bad instuctors out there who use the 'sensei mystique' to hide behind, I've seen them, I haven't said anyone here is a bad instructor at all so don't snipe at me. You haven't had a go at one poster who said you must never ever be friends with anyone you train with but chose to have a go at me, interesting. If you have a problem with me PM me instead of getting at me in public.

As instructors in our club we don't see ourselves as the type of instuctors who are remote or in charge all the time, we have students who are more experienced than myself, we have students who know nothing but I also work with many of my students in various roles some of which are more risky than others, we simply don't have the same way of working. I don't like being told that never ever am I supposed to be friends with my students, it simply doesn't work in our club. In your huge schools where you take loads of money perhaps that's what works for you, we don't pay for instruction, we aren't formal and we will be friends with whoever we want to be, it's works for us.